I'm a little jealous... - DPChallenge Forums

09/18/2009 06:28:35 PM · #51

Originally posted by Matthew:

If you posit that there is an omniscient and omnipotent god-like being (ignoring the incompatibility of this with the concept of our free will), then the creation stories are limitless.

Why is freewill incompatible with an omniscient and omnipotent god-like being?

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/18/2009 06:33:33 PM · #52

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Well, regardless of the loaded presentation, that isn't MY position. I was just throwing up another perspective to go with Bebe's either/or...

R.

And my point is that one (not necessarily "you") can find a story that roughly bridges the gap between hard discovered factual history and any belief system should you interpose an omniscient and omnipotent god.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

09/18/2009 06:34:09 PM · #53

Originally posted by dahkota:

Why is free will incompatible with an omniscient and omnipotent god-like being?

Anything outside of direct knowledge and control eliminates omniscience and omnipotence by definition.

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/18/2009 06:37:41 PM · #54

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by Matthew:

If you posit that there is an omniscient and omnipotent god-like being (ignoring the incompatibility of this with the concept of our free will), then the creation stories are limitless.

Why is freewill incompatible with an omniscient and omnipotent god-like being?

How can god know what you are going to do if you truly have free will?

If god does not know what you are going to do (and the consequence of all humanities' actions), how can god be omniscient?

Same for omnipotence and god's ability to influence your actions.

Message edited by author 2009-09-18 18:38:43.

dahkota

09/18/2009 07:11:47 PM · #55

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by Matthew:

If you posit that there is an omniscient and omnipotent god-like being (ignoring the incompatibility of this with the concept of our free will), then the creation stories are limitless.

Why is freewill incompatible with an omniscient and omnipotent god-like being?

How can god know what you are going to do if you truly have free will?

If god does not know what you are going to do (and the consequence of all humanities' actions), how can god be omniscient?

Same for omnipotence and god's ability to influence your actions.

How does God knowing what I am going to do effect my choice? If I ask you to pick a number between one and ten, does my knowing what the number is (before you choose it) stop you from freely choosing a number?

Why assume that God influences your actions, unless you specifically chose your actions in your belief that God wants you to do it?

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/18/2009 07:19:29 PM · #56

Originally posted by dahkota:

If god knows everything that you are going to do, doesn't that mean that it is predetermined? Free will would be an illusion.

Bebe

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

09/18/2009 08:59:42 PM · #57

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Or, arguably, He observed the evolution of His creatures and subsequently informed humankind with His spirit, thus "creating" us as intelligent beings within His already-extant creation...

R.

There is no "arguably" about it - your stories will "win" every time. If you posit that there is an omniscient and omnipotent god-like being (ignoring the incompatibility of this with the concept of our free will), then the creation stories are limitless. You can invent absolutely anything, then say "and then god made it undetectable".

It's a hollow victory every time - but there is no arguing against it. No matter how many men devote their lives and their fortunes into researching the factual history of life and the universe, religion can always claim the most remarkable human discoveries for its own with another effortless tweak to the story.

Well, regardless of the loaded presentation, that isn't MY position. I was just throwing up another perspective to go with Bebe's either/or...

R.

To follow up, Bear, I understand that's it not necessarily your position but, I think your "possibility" was fascinating and original, at least to my ears. I hadn't heard of nor considered that concept before, and I haven't yet come up with a logic against it being possibly true. I'd be very interested in anyone who could argue against it.

However, it does sort of portray God as One who was playing a game and then said "oooooooh. Look what happened. that's cool... maybe I'll mess around some more ..." and, again, I'm not sure that's the God that most people are looking for.

Message edited by author 2009-09-18 21:00:07.

JulietNN

Canon EOS R7

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

09/18/2009 09:25:07 PM · #58

I just wish I could believe in something so much that I found inner peace

AJSullivan

09/19/2009 07:24:27 AM · #59

Originally posted by JulietNN:

I just wish I could believe in something so much that I found inner peace

Thats what im t alking about. Imagine being able to clear your mind of all the bullshit thats out there because you have the "answer"

david_c

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

09/19/2009 07:41:34 AM · #60

Originally posted by JulietNN:

I just wish I could believe in something so much that I found inner peace

Would it be at all important to you if that something was true or not? Or are you just after inner peace?

JulietNN

Canon EOS R7

09/19/2009 08:48:39 AM · #61

I think that is the point. I wish I could believe in something , in anything as much as some people believe in God or Budda or Neptune, ,Zuess, whomever and whatever. And I am not sure it is believing, but just knowing. Not sure that makes sense to be honest.

dahkota

09/19/2009 09:01:22 AM · #62

Originally posted by JulietNN:

Do you believe the sun will rise tomorrow? Take joy in that. Once you start noticing and reveling in the little things in life, the ones typically taken for granted, the larger things follow. Often, we are in too much of a hurry to get some place, that we don't see how we got there.

Nullix

Canon EOS-5D Mark III