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09/01/2009 09:13:01 AM · #701 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
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Is that how it is in Canada, England, Holland, France, New Zealand, Sweden, France...?
I believe all of them have higher life expectancy than we do and some at lower costs. Stop listening to the insurance giants, they're the ones who'll kill you.
Apparently, you have no faith in your country or it's government. |
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09/01/2009 09:25:12 AM · #702 |
I don't know about Canada, Holland, and New Zealand but, However In England, Germany, and France they pay extremely high taxes mainly to pay for the healthcare.....Socialized medicine is not a good idea, has never been a good idea, and will never be a good idea. I can forsee either extremely high taxes or bankrupcy in our future. This healt care reform will also kill drug research. Think about it.....The drug companies research because they are making money and they want to make more. When the govmt gets involved the drug companies will no longer be making the billions that they are now...So why should they continue their research..
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09/01/2009 10:19:04 AM · #703 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I don't know about Canada, Holland, and New Zealand but, However In England, Germany, and France they pay extremely high taxes mainly to pay for the healthcare... |
Well, you should know. That would be the only way to have an intelligent conversation.
They pay taxes and we pay insanely high premiums...what's the difference?
If your lucky enough to work for a company that pays for these skyrocketing costs, good for you but what about the rest of your fellow Americans? What about the ones that work hard and pay $700-1700 a month, should they continue to be burdened with that and the possibility that they could get dropped if they get ill or lose their coverage for some unforeseen reason? It could be you, next. Keep in mind what goes around comes around.
Again, for ALL of our pride and our "we're the best" talk it certainly doesn't show in our present day's rhetoric. If anything it's telling how incompetent and ungovernable we've become.
It's been around 30 years in the making but the United States has become a walking corpse, living off of fumes. Politicians can't say it and the media won't but we're done.
Dead Man Walking...!
Message edited by author 2009-09-01 10:22:09. |
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09/01/2009 10:29:20 AM · #704 |
I read something very interresting about your fear of "socialized medicine".
It goes all the way back to you seccesion war, and your hatred for the english crown (ie tyrany). In canada we never had that much of a feud with the governing authorities (except a few bumps in the road), we had our share of rebellion but more with arguments than bullets, so we don't see the government as much a menace to our freedom as you do.
You see government control as "oppressing" when we don't.
Message edited by author 2009-09-01 10:33:48. |
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09/01/2009 10:44:31 AM · #705 |
I have been in the military now for 13 years....The reason I joined and the reason I have stayed in so long is to fight for our freedoms as American citizens. The more the govmt comes in and regulates things that "civilians" should manage the less freedoms we have as americans. I was also against the bailout....that is to include banks, automakers, and everyone else that got money. I am a believer in smaller govmt...not larger govmt. I think we could get by quite nicely with only about half of the government agencies...That would also help on our tax base.
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09/01/2009 12:50:27 PM · #706 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I have been in the military now for 13 years....The reason I joined and the reason I have stayed in so long is to fight for our freedoms as American citizens. The more the govmt comes in and regulates things that "civilians" should manage the less freedoms we have as americans. I was also against the bailout....that is to include banks, automakers, and everyone else that got money. I am a believer in smaller govmt...not larger govmt. I think we could get by quite nicely with only about half of the government agencies...That would also help on our tax base. |
And leave things to big business? I have no illusions of how the magic of the marketplace will take care of all our problems...I never have and never will. The markets as they are governed now serve people all the way at the top and if the middle class has their Doritos, MTV/Amercan Idol all's fine.
Why can't health care be seen in that same light as, public education (State University), the military, the waterworks etc. Why is this issue being manifested into a Communist take-over. Doesn't that seem quite extreme? They've stated time and time and time again..it's an option NOT a complete take-over of the system.
Did you go to public school? I did and I'd bet most American did, as well. I also went to State and City Universities. It wasn't so bad. In fact, I got a pretty decent education.
If you said to me that you don't trust government to handle or run it well or that we as people can't function in that type of system...I'll bite. If you believe we or the government aren't competent enough to handle this, that's an argument I'd accept BUT if they could do a good job...let's assume for a moment they could...would you still be against it?
As for why you serve... I'd say your fighting for a mirage and ultimately you're serving corporate America's self interest...Big Oil and keeping stock prices up. Nothing to do with what our founding fathers envisioned. This country and the Constitution are living documents that were created to change with the times...look it up.
As it stands we're are showing the world our colors. The USA is a "me, me, me" culture. That isn't what we stand for and it's become our downfall. If you believe government is the enemy I'd say that's paranoid thinking and if it's true it's because we've made it so.
The government wasn't waiting...excited...happy to bailout the financial institutions, they had to and I'm sure they can't wait to get out of it. If they hadn't there would have been blood in the streets. With a few exception most economists believe that money helped skirt a deep Depression. Our complexion as a people has become too greedy...too lazy...and too fat to survive a Depression. We're not the same people we were back in the 1920's. People took care of each other back then...not anymore.
Message edited by author 2009-09-01 12:53:28. |
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09/01/2009 01:26:33 PM · #707 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I have been in the military now for 13 years.... |
Do you purchase private health insurance? |
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09/01/2009 01:58:55 PM · #708 |
As a matter of fact I do purchase my own insurance....I am in the reserves, the insurance that you can purchase through them, only if you were deployed, is so horrible that I opted out. I had their insurance for a while after my 1st deployment. They basically told you where you could go, what doctor you could see, etc. If you chose to use a different doctor or even if you didn't have a choice you had to come out of pocket big time....I get much better coverage going to private insurance instead of govmt run crap!!!!!
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09/01/2009 03:02:28 PM · #709 |
Phoenix Pastor Draws Protests After Telling Church He Prays for Obama's Death
This stuff isn't normal and like I said in previous post's the rhetoric that's getting out there is frightful, dangerous and will lead to assassination attempts.
I can't see anything he's done in 7-8 months that's so over the top to make people feel this way UNLESS it's something else?
BTW the guy toting the automatic gun at that Town Hall meeting a few weeks ago is a member of that Parish. |
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09/01/2009 03:27:27 PM · #710 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Phoenix Pastor Draws Protests After Telling Church He Prays for Obama's Death
This stuff isn't normal and like I said in previous post's the rhetoric that's getting out there is frightful, dangerous and will lead to assassination attempts.
I can't see anything he's done in 7-8 months that's so over the top to make people feel this way UNLESS it's something else?
BTW the guy toting the automatic gun at that Town Hall meeting a few weeks ago is a member of that Parish. |
"I'm gonna pray that he dies and goes to hell when I go to bed tonight. That's what I'm gonna pray," he told his congregation.
This quote from him above is an absolute 180 degrees from the teachings of Jesus. He should be ashamed, but he probably isn't. :( |
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09/01/2009 03:50:50 PM · #711 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I have been in the military now for 13 years....The reason I joined and the reason I have stayed in so long is to fight for our freedoms as American citizens. The more the govmt comes in and regulates things that "civilians" should manage the less freedoms we have as americans. I was also against the bailout....that is to include banks, automakers, and everyone else that got money. I am a believer in smaller govmt...not larger govmt. I think we could get by quite nicely with only about half of the government agencies...That would also help on our tax base. |
How do you feel about the privatization of the military we have going on now with Blackwater and other contractors, well payed "civilians" taking over jobs that used to be done by the military? Granted they cost much more than the people they have replaced, but are they vastly superior to the GIs they replaced? I was under the impression that private enterprise was supposed to do the job better and cheaper than big government, but at least in this instance it seems the old Army, blunt instrument though it is, did the job better and cheaper than these highly paid professionals hired by well connected companies who are raking in vast profits.Interesting reading. I would rather trust my elected government than trust a company which puts its profits ahead of the public good. Sending public needs to a private contractor usually drives up costs. |
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09/01/2009 04:05:39 PM · #712 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
If you said to me that you don't trust government to handle or run it well or that we as people can't function in that type of system...I'll bite. If you believe we or the government aren't competent enough to handle this, that's an argument I'd accept BUT if they could do a good job...let's assume for a moment they could...would you still be against it?
As for why you serve... I'd say your fighting for a mirage and ultimately you're serving corporate America's self interest...Big Oil and keeping stock prices up. Nothing to do with what our founding fathers envisioned. This country and the Constitution are living documents that were created to change with the times...look it up.
As it stands we're are showing the world our colors. The USA is a "me, me, me" culture. That isn't what we stand for and it's become our downfall. If you believe government is the enemy I'd say that's paranoid thinking and if it's true it's because we've made it so.
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All I have to say is WOW spoken like a true New Yorker. First of all I have seen how the govmt operates and I know that the govmt as a whole could not even begin to handle health care and handle it well. The govmt as a whole is not competent enough to deal with it. So yes I am against it. And I will be against it for the forseeable future unless something drastic changes.
Next on military service.... Let me ask you how many times have you marched with Cindy Sheehan during this war? My service and the service of my brothers and sisters is the only reason why you are not speaking German, Russian, or some other language...If you haven't noticed the constitution has evolved for the last 222 years. The basic principal has not changed but the ideas have. And as for "corporate America" every major country in the world has corruption. They do get involved with the govmt. unfortunately.
The next topic is a big one. We are revealing our true colors "the me me me society". The U.S. has given for so long that it is about time that we take care of ourselves. Every chance we have had we send money or troops or food...and you know what it normally comes back and bites us. for example:do you remember the oil for food deal we had with Saddam? Do you know what really happened...what the real cause of us going in there in the first place. Well I'll tell you. Saddam was spending Billions of dollars on palace. One of which is called the "victory over America palace" in Baghdad. We were trying to help someone out and it backfired. I believe in charity, however, only help those that first of all help themselves and second show some appreciation instead of burning our flag and spitting on the troops.(that is to include americans)
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09/01/2009 04:10:44 PM · #713 |
On privitization of the military I am highly against it...and I will explain. Wars are meant to be fought by countries. There is too much liability for a civillian to do the job. There are always accidents. It gets real confusing sometimes in a battle and you don't always know who is good or bad...This is how friendlys get killed...The private armies would not be protected like the govmt army would be. Plus it is cheaper to hire GI's then a mercenary. Lets face it every GI is expendable...
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09/01/2009 04:18:32 PM · #714 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
We were trying to help someone out and it backfired. |
That's a fairy tale. We weren't "trying to help them out", we were trying to keep a major oil producer under our thumb on our side, and it didn't work. The whole history of Western powers' involvement in the Middle East has been one colonialism, plundering, raping of resources, whatever you want to call it. It started long before U.S. involvement, of course (the Dutch, the English, the French, etc) but that's what it's all been about, at least in post-industrial times. Before that, it was religiously motivated; the West wanted control of the Holy Land.
This is an oversimplification of hundreds of years of history, of course, but it's basically true. Anyone who thinks our support of various regimes in the Middle East has been altruistically motivated is seriously out of touch with reality...
R.
Message edited by author 2009-09-01 16:19:03. |
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09/01/2009 05:39:35 PM · #715 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
First of all I have seen how the govmt operates and I know that the govmt as a whole could not even begin to handle health care and handle it well. The govmt as a whole is not competent enough to deal with it. So yes I am against it. And I will be against it for the forseeable future unless something drastic changes. |
What flaw do you see in our government that makes it unable to take care of the health of it's people? Every other first world nation is able to do this. Quite a few horribly run countries third world nations (think Cuba) manage to pull it off quite well. What experience did you have that makes you believe that our country "could not even begin to handle health care" when every one of the countries we see as our allies and rivals are able to provide this service for their citizens? We think it rational to have the government run the police, the schools, fire protection, the military, the roadways et cetera et cetera, ad nauseum. What is it about health care that there is such a sea change from these other services in your mind? |
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09/01/2009 05:53:34 PM · #716 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
They've stated time and time and time again..it's an option NOT a complete take-over of the system. |
Want to buy a bridge?
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09/01/2009 05:58:20 PM · #717 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Want to buy a bridge? |
All the bridges I use regularly are paid for and run by public funds, supplemented by usage tolls, so, nope I like my bridges funded without private ownership. But thanks for the offer. |
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09/01/2009 06:10:36 PM · #718 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Want to buy a bridge? |
All the bridges I use regularly are paid for and run by public funds, supplemented by usage tolls, so, nope I like my bridges funded without private ownership. But thanks for the offer. |
Nice redirect.
Do you really believe it's just an "option"? You honestly believe it's not the first step to a full single payer system? You honestly believe this option will not eventually become the only option? |
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09/01/2009 06:14:27 PM · #719 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Want to buy a bridge? |
All the bridges I use regularly are paid for and run by public funds, supplemented by usage tolls, so, nope I like my bridges funded without private ownership. But thanks for the offer. |
SNAP!
R.
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09/01/2009 06:26:58 PM · #720 |
When the govmt gets involved things slow down to a crawl. Since everyone wants to talk about roads lets.... The main reason why it takes so long for the "govmt" to get a road done is the bureaucracy. I work in the civil design field. I have done everything from roads to oil wells. The govmt slows the process way down. Now let me ask you...Do you want your healthcare to slow down. I'm sorry to say but it will unless you go to a private hospital and pay out of pocket.
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09/01/2009 06:34:06 PM · #721 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Do you really believe it's just an "option"? You honestly believe it's not the first step to a full single payer system? You honestly believe this option will not eventually become the only option? |
My personal belief? I tend to think that societies move towards the best solution. Long term, medical practice and delivery is advancing fast enough that it is no longer the province of the rich, but a service that is available to all members of a society. A baseline national health system will be as accepted as a baseline educational system in the future (my daughter goes to a private school, but I'm not in favor of getting rid of the local private school, I even vote on local bonds to increase my property taxes to improve those schools that I will never use). If it doesn't happen now, it will happen eventually. If not the Canadian single payer, then the French system that has been adopted by the Japanese and many other countries. Our current system is just too wasteful of money and medical expertise to continue when better models are so readily available.
That said, this option on the legislative board is as currently written a half measure, hamstrung by big insurance money which if passed will be an option, and it will act as the safety net for those too poor and too sick to be profitable for the private insurers to want. The resulting system will not be an ideal system, but it will remedy some of the worst flaws of our current system.
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09/01/2009 06:42:42 PM · #722 |
If government is so "inefficient" then why is the administrative overhead for MediCare about 5% while for the private health insurance industry it runs 20-30%?
BTW, that same governement which "couldn't possibly run" a health care system is also in charge of some 5-8000 nuclear weapons -- that's a bit more frightening to me than having the government pay my doctor's bills ... |
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09/01/2009 06:45:51 PM · #723 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
The govmt slows the process way down. Now let me ask you...Do you want your healthcare to slow down. I'm sorry to say but it will unless you go to a private hospital and pay out of pocket. |
I'm not sure where you get your medicine, but for most Americans the system is broken right now, and getting worse every year. It is more expensive, with poorer results on almost any metric, than any other system in the First World. You prognostication that it will only get worse is based of fear, but have you ever had any experienced with socialized medicine? Most folks who have, have had a happier result that the average American. Why do you trust an accountant in Hanover who is paid by your insurance company to oversee your medicine more than you would an MPH in D.C.?
Message edited by author 2009-09-01 18:46:31. |
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09/01/2009 07:11:00 PM · #724 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If government is so "inefficient" then why is the administrative overhead for MediCare about 5% while for the private health insurance industry it runs 20-30%? |
Because you believe what they tell you. |
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09/01/2009 07:19:43 PM · #725 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Do you really believe it's just an "option"? You honestly believe it's not the first step to a full single payer system? You honestly believe this option will not eventually become the only option? |
My personal belief? I tend to think that societies move towards the best solution. Long term, medical practice and delivery is advancing fast enough that it is no longer the province of the rich, but a service that is available to all members of a society. A baseline national health system will be as accepted as a baseline educational system in the future (my daughter goes to a private school, but I'm not in favor of getting rid of the local private school, I even vote on local bonds to increase my property taxes to improve those schools that I will never use). If it doesn't happen now, it will happen eventually. If not the Canadian single payer, then the French system that has been adopted by the Japanese and many other countries. Our current system is just too wasteful of money and medical expertise to continue when better models are so readily available.
That said, this option on the legislative board is as currently written a half measure, hamstrung by big insurance money which if passed will be an option, and it will act as the safety net for those too poor and too sick to be profitable for the private insurers to want. The resulting system will not be an ideal system, but it will remedy some of the worst flaws of our current system. |
Good answer, I can respect that, but I disagree. I see the current option on the table, being funded by taxes on the rich, a cheaper option that many people will opt into simply to save money. Then companies that provide insurance will want to save money too and switch over. Soon the private school option will be so expensive only the rich will have it. Then to pay for the unexpected number of people that want free/cheap healthcare taxes will go up.
Furthermore, just like medicare, the govt will demand lower prices from the doctors for treatment in the option, meaning everyone else will pay more. This will escalate the run to the option as private insurance will get far too expensive and even those that want it won't be able to afford it.
It's not that we will take the best option, we'll take the cheapest option. Why is Walmart always so busy? Sevice sucks, products suck, prices are good. We'll have Walmart healthcare. |
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