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08/21/2009 03:47:19 PM · #651 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Come on...I hate poor people..you hate rich people...we both like Nikon, gays, and abortion. If that ain't the beginning of a sound platform and some interesting campaign promises, I don't know what is! |
:-)
You remind me of one of the hit tunes (NOT!) of 1965:
Oh the Protestants hate the Catholics, and the Catholics hate the Protestants
And the Hindus hate the Moslems, and everybody hates the Jews
But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic
Be nice to people who are inferior to you
It's only for a week, so have no fear
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!
--Tom Lehrer, National Brotherhood Week |
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08/21/2009 03:58:40 PM · #652 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Come on...I hate poor people..you hate rich people...we both like Nikon, gays, and abortion. If that ain't the beginning of a sound platform and some interesting campaign promises, I don't know what is! |
:-)
You remind me of one of the hit tunes (NOT!) of 1965:
Oh the Protestants hate the Catholics, and the Catholics hate the Protestants
And the Hindus hate the Moslems, and everybody hates the Jews
But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic
Be nice to people who are inferior to you
It's only for a week, so have no fear
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!
--Tom Lehrer, National Brotherhood Week |
HA! |
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08/21/2009 04:43:33 PM · #653 |
Originally posted by SDW:
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Whoa.....
That's kinda scary! LOL!!!
If we don't promise anyone anything, we don't have to worry about empty promises.
Of course, we won't get any Republican dollars, either.
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08/21/2009 04:45:31 PM · #654 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by SDW:
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Now that's a pair! |
Suddenly the 2012 apocalypse prophesies make sense. |
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08/21/2009 04:45:53 PM · #655 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by SDW:
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Now that's a pair! |
Suddenly the 2012 apocalypse prophesies make sense. |
No doubt!!! |
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08/21/2009 06:30:54 PM · #656 |
| But at least we can look forward to an accountable apocalypse. |
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08/21/2009 08:32:42 PM · #657 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
If you want to argue costs, that's fair. Saying "Government options fail" is a flat out lie. Every one of the programs mentioned in this thread still function today and will tomorrow. Now I can give you a long list of private companies who have actually failed and gone out of business or worse stay in business by defrauding people. By your logic I should be able to claim capitalism has failed. |
By your logic, you cannot function AND fail at the same time? Ask Mr. Webster what he thinks of the word fail. |
Sorry for the delay responding back. Had to go get the mail since that failed USPS continues to deliver my mail every day. Maybe I'll go ask Mr. Webster what it would be like if the USPS was actually successful.
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08/21/2009 08:34:31 PM · #658 |
Originally posted by raish:
But at least we can look forward to an accountable apocalypse. |
I don't know. They seem to have everything backwards so maybe they would actually deliver unaccountable success or apocalypse. Can't quite figure that one out.
Message edited by author 2009-08-21 20:35:50.
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08/21/2009 08:37:52 PM · #659 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
If you want to argue costs, that's fair. Saying "Government options fail" is a flat out lie. Every one of the programs mentioned in this thread still function today and will tomorrow. Now I can give you a long list of private companies who have actually failed and gone out of business or worse stay in business by defrauding people. By your logic I should be able to claim capitalism has failed. |
By your logic, you cannot function AND fail at the same time? Ask Mr. Webster what he thinks of the word fail. |
Sorry for the delay responding back. Had to go get the mail since that failed USPS continues to deliver my mail every day. Maybe I'll go ask Mr. Webster what it would be like if the USPS was actually successful. |
If they were successful, they wouldn't have DOUBLED the price to send a simple letter since 1985. If they were successful, they wouldn't be closing post office across the country. If they were successful, they wouldn't be begging for more and more government funding every few months or so. By that rationale, what do you think it would cost the taxpayers to make a government-funded health care option successful? Hint: more than 44 cents. |
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08/21/2009 08:38:40 PM · #660 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by raish:
But at least we can look forward to an accountable apocalypse. |
I don't know. They seem to have everything backwards so maybe they would actually deliver unaccountable success or apocalypse. Can't quite figure that one out. |
Yeah...much more likely as an outcome. Even still, would you vote for us or Palin? |
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08/21/2009 09:00:19 PM · #661 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
If you want to argue costs, that's fair. Saying "Government options fail" is a flat out lie. Every one of the programs mentioned in this thread still function today and will tomorrow. Now I can give you a long list of private companies who have actually failed and gone out of business or worse stay in business by defrauding people. By your logic I should be able to claim capitalism has failed. |
By your logic, you cannot function AND fail at the same time? Ask Mr. Webster what he thinks of the word fail. |
Sorry for the delay responding back. Had to go get the mail since that failed USPS continues to deliver my mail every day. Maybe I'll go ask Mr. Webster what it would be like if the USPS was actually successful. |
If they were successful, they wouldn't have DOUBLED the price to send a simple letter since 1985. If they were successful, they wouldn't be closing post office across the country. If they were successful, they wouldn't be begging for more and more government funding every few months or so. By that rationale, what do you think it would cost the taxpayers to make a government-funded health care option successful? Hint: more than 44 cents. |
Now apply that same standard to the commercial businesses that deliver mail. Are they failures as well? How much does it cost you to mail that same 1 stamp letter using UPS or FedEx? Hint: more than 44 cents.
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08/21/2009 09:58:01 PM · #662 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
What you don't get, or don't want to understand, is that there are an awful lot of people who play by the rules, never cheat, never try to goose the system, work hard their entire lives, and yet cannot now and never will be able to afford health care/health insurance, and no amount of "temporary" help is going to solve this problem. I know you don't give a damn about those people, and you use the "cheaters" as an excuse for not dealing with the inescapable truth about your beloved and fetishized free-market, and that truth is that sometimes it fails and fails miserably. All your crap arguments about health care reform costing too much, government not being efficient, the lazy bums taking advantage, blah blah blah... that's all bullshit, working-backwards logic because you start with the belief that "capitalism never fails," and then when you see obvious examples of failure, you must conclude that it's the individual who has fallen short. I mean, it's a beautiful little piece of self-deceptive ideology that gives people like you the perfect excuse to maintain your self-righteous anger and selfishness, and it's all crap. |
Umm.....
But isn't this capitalist society supposed to function that way? Yeah, stuff happens, but aren't we supposed to be accorded the right to succeed or fail by the fruits of our labors?
I went bankrupt due to circumstances that were within my control, but through a series of mistakes, and for a period, I had no health insurance 'cause I couldn't afford it.
But I didn't expect someone to pay for it for me. And like it or not, there is a lot of money that goes down the tubes by people "working" the system that shouldn't, don't need it, and that does create a strain on the system for the rest of us.
Are you interested in paying for insurance for other people with your wages/taxes?
I'd personally like to see a nationalized health system to get it out of the hands of for-profit insurance companies, but I'd like to see accountability go with it.
BTW, please think about how you view selfishness before you accuse someone else of being selfish because they don't want to give their money away. I don't want to throw mine down a black hole, and I sure don't need someone telling me I'm selfish because I want some accountability for where my money goes.......and am reluctant to give it up for your beliefs. |
You'll have to point out to me where I stated that I was against accountability. I don't think I said that anywhere. Of course I want accountability, and of course I don't want to throw my money down a black hole. I believe that I may now be throwing the money I spend on health insurance down a black hole because there is no guarantee that if I become ill my insurance company will honor its responsibility to me, especially due to my status as a self-employed person. As you may know, the self-employed are subject to a lot more abuse by the insurance companies because we have a lot less power than those who buy their insurance as members of large pools.
And the "failure" I referred to wasn't the individual's failure, it was the failure of the for-profit system to efficiently and affordably provide access to health care for the citizens of this country. We've got a $17 trillion economy, one-sixth of which is accounted for by expenditures on health care, yet the U.S. is ranked 37th in the world in terms of the quality of its health care system. At the same time we've got 40 to 50 million people without health insurance, who knows how many that are under-insured, and millions who are insured and can't afford their co-pays, not to mention the folks who are leaving the country to get access to health care they can afford. I mean, any way you slice it, I think you'll have to admit the system has failed.
As for Eric, who has made it very clear that as long as he's got his, the rest of us can suck eggs, yes, I'd call that selfish. What would you call it? He has also stated that until the powers-that-be can guarantee that there are zero cheaters in the welfare system, he will be against reform of the health care system. I say that's an excuse for doing nothing. I'd love to rid the system of the few bad apples, but I don't see why the existence of those bad apples should stand in the way of us reforming health care. |
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08/21/2009 10:28:56 PM · #663 |
The government took over "Mustang Ranch" in Nevada over taxes. Within a year or so, the place went bankrupt. If the gov can't run a whore house and liquor joint and make a profit, how do you think they will do with our health care? It's going to be expensive and a little unpleasant, and maybe they will use KY, maybe not.
Ok, that's my $.02
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08/21/2009 10:52:14 PM · #664 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
You'll have to point out to me where I stated that I was against accountability. I don't think I said that anywhere. Of course I want accountability, and of course I don't want to throw my money down a black hole. I believe that I may now be throwing the money I spend on health insurance down a black hole because there is no guarantee that if I become ill my insurance company will honor its responsibility to me, especially due to my status as a self-employed person. As you may know, the self-employed are subject to a lot more abuse by the insurance companies because we have a lot less power than those who buy their insurance as members of large pools. |
I stated before in this thread that I was self-employed for twenty years and the skyrocketing costs of health care during the Bush years made it such that for about three years, I couldn't afford the $10K a year for a bare bones policy.
I only have it now because my wife went out and got a job with the state.
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
And the "failure" I referred to wasn't the individual's failure, it was the failure of the for-profit system to efficiently and affordably provide access to health care for the citizens of this country. We've got a $17 trillion economy, one-sixth of which is accounted for by expenditures on health care, yet the U.S. is ranked 37th in the world in terms of the quality of its health care system. At the same time we've got 40 to 50 million people without health insurance, who knows how many that are under-insured, and millions who are insured and can't afford their co-pays, not to mention the folks who are leaving the country to get access to health care they can afford. I mean, any way you slice it, I think you'll have to admit the system has failed. |
I'm not sure why you'd direct this at me......I hate insurance companies and I'd like to see how Obama's plan would play out.
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
As for Eric, who has made it very clear that as long as he's got his, the rest of us can suck eggs, yes, I'd call that selfish. What would you call it? He has also stated that until the powers-that-be can guarantee that there are zero cheaters in the welfare system, he will be against reform of the health care system. I say that's an excuse for doing nothing. I'd love to rid the system of the few bad apples, but I don't see why the existence of those bad apples should stand in the way of us reforming health care. |
I think "few" is a gross understatement.....I've seen to much abuse of the systems of food stamps and welfare on a personal level because of where I lived for about five years. There are plenty of able-bodied people vigorously abusing the systems quite successfully. Hence my accountability comment. How much grief would it really be to have welfare recipients bring in receipts for last week's check to get this week's?
I understand the resistance to Eric's delivery, but the fact remains that if you don't see how widespread the abuses are, it's not so easy to grasp.
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08/21/2009 10:53:11 PM · #665 |
Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:
The government took over "Mustang Ranch" in Nevada over taxes. Within a year or so, the place went bankrupt. If the gov can't run a whore house and liquor joint and make a profit, how do you think they will do with our health care? It's going to be expensive and a little unpleasant, and maybe they will use KY, maybe not.
Ok, that's my $.02 |
Well, DUH!
The guv'mint doesn't want any competition when they give us a f*ckin'!
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08/22/2009 02:34:43 AM · #666 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
As for Eric, who has made it very clear that as long as he's got his, the rest of us can suck eggs, yes, I'd call that selfish. What would you call it? He has also stated that until the powers-that-be can guarantee that there are zero cheaters in the welfare system, he will be against reform of the health care system. I say that's an excuse for doing nothing. I'd love to rid the system of the few bad apples, but I don't see why the existence of those bad apples should stand in the way of us reforming health care. |
Therein completely lies the issue. You, in your little dream world, think that there are only a few bad apples in the country. Wake up and look around. Have you ever even been to an inner city, low income housing area? I bet you've been there almost as much as you have read through the various health care reform bills. Take a ride, or as such a hurting self-employed individual, a walk around the 'projects' and count the luxury SUVs you see. Peek in and count the plasmas, LCDs, and the groqing number of LEDs. Count the PS3s, the Xboxes, the Wiis. The count their kids, their income from welfare, their food stamps, their medicaid healthcare, and THEN tell me that the problem is isolated. You cannot. I'm guessing that I am safe in assuming that you don't have very many of those areas in 'up-sate' NY, do you? Well, pull your head out of your ass and swing down into the big city. Peek around and tell me how I am wrong. You can't because I am not. Fix the abusers in the systems already in place, and then let's talk. Would you vote for mandatory birth control, drug testing, and proof of where you spent your last government supplemented income? Let me guess...somehow that infringes on the 'rights' of those that constantly suck the government tit. Keep living in your little dream world and I'll keep screaming the truth as I see it.
And Jeb, you are right...my delivery sucks, but this is the only way I know. To me, its honesty. Now, back to our campaign.
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08/22/2009 02:38:35 AM · #667 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
If you want to argue costs, that's fair. Saying "Government options fail" is a flat out lie. Every one of the programs mentioned in this thread still function today and will tomorrow. Now I can give you a long list of private companies who have actually failed and gone out of business or worse stay in business by defrauding people. By your logic I should be able to claim capitalism has failed. |
By your logic, you cannot function AND fail at the same time? Ask Mr. Webster what he thinks of the word fail. |
Sorry for the delay responding back. Had to go get the mail since that failed USPS continues to deliver my mail every day. Maybe I'll go ask Mr. Webster what it would be like if the USPS was actually successful. |
If they were successful, they wouldn't have DOUBLED the price to send a simple letter since 1985. If they were successful, they wouldn't be closing post office across the country. If they were successful, they wouldn't be begging for more and more government funding every few months or so. By that rationale, what do you think it would cost the taxpayers to make a government-funded health care option successful? Hint: more than 44 cents. |
Now apply that same standard to the commercial businesses that deliver mail. Are they failures as well? How much does it cost you to mail that same 1 stamp letter using UPS or FedEx? Hint: more than 44 cents. |
Now figure in the taxes you pay for the amount of mail you send PLUS that 44 cents. Hint: I do not use or trust the USPS, so it costs me a lot more. I don't have to pay UPS of FedEx anything unless I need them to deliver something for me. When I DO pay them for their services, they never let me down. They can tell me where my letter or package is at any given moment in time. Now calculate how much it would cost the USPS to do the same thing. Don;t forget to add in the tax dollars you have already paid in. Hint: we're getting phuct.
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08/22/2009 03:31:18 AM · #668 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
If you want to argue costs, that's fair. Saying "Government options fail" is a flat out lie. Every one of the programs mentioned in this thread still function today and will tomorrow. Now I can give you a long list of private companies who have actually failed and gone out of business or worse stay in business by defrauding people. By your logic I should be able to claim capitalism has failed. |
By your logic, you cannot function AND fail at the same time? Ask Mr. Webster what he thinks of the word fail. |
Sorry for the delay responding back. Had to go get the mail since that failed USPS continues to deliver my mail every day. Maybe I'll go ask Mr. Webster what it would be like if the USPS was actually successful. |
If they were successful, they wouldn't have DOUBLED the price to send a simple letter since 1985. If they were successful, they wouldn't be closing post office across the country. If they were successful, they wouldn't be begging for more and more government funding every few months or so. By that rationale, what do you think it would cost the taxpayers to make a government-funded health care option successful? Hint: more than 44 cents. |
Now apply that same standard to the commercial businesses that deliver mail. Are they failures as well? How much does it cost you to mail that same 1 stamp letter using UPS or FedEx? Hint: more than 44 cents. |
Now figure in the taxes you pay for the amount of mail you send PLUS that 44 cents. |
Umm 0 + 44 cents equals... 44 cents? What number do you come up with?
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Hint: I do not use or trust the USPS, so it costs me a lot more. |
Yet you know they are a failure. That makes perfect sense.
Originally posted by ericwoo:
I don't have to pay UPS of FedEx anything unless I need them to deliver something for me. When I DO pay them for their services, they never let me down. They can tell me where my letter or package is at any given moment in time. |
I'm glad you like their service but how does this address your claim that USPS is a failure?
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Now calculate how much it would cost the USPS to do the same thing. Don;t forget to add in the tax dollars you have already paid in. Hint: we're getting phuct. |
Do what thing? If I need the extra services like package tracking then sure I'll go with UPS. How does this even remotely prove your point about USPS being a failure? What because they don't offer package tracking? I've used USPS to ship many packages and guess what they all get delivered. Maybe it's just you getting phuct? Ever thought of that?
Message edited by author 2009-08-22 03:36:14.
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08/22/2009 08:57:20 AM · #669 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Take a ride, or as such a hurting self-employed individual, a walk around the 'projects' and count the luxury SUVs you see. Peek in and count the plasmas, LCDs, and the groqing number of LEDs. Count the PS3s, the Xboxes, the Wiis. The count their kids, their income from welfare, their food stamps, their medicaid healthcare, and THEN tell me that the problem is isolated. You cannot. |
Unfortunately, this is true.
I will point out that a lot of the revenue that pays for these toys isn't so much from the welfare system as it is from........"other" sales ventures, but there isn't a lot of gainfully employed people in "The Projects" no matter where they may be.
Been in the projects around here, all too often, and have had more involvement with that social strata than I'm happy about. Eric is all too well acquainted with this reality......
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08/22/2009 09:05:13 AM · #670 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Now figure in the taxes you pay for the amount of mail you send PLUS that 44 cents. Hint: I do not use or trust the USPS, so it costs me a lot more. I don't have to pay UPS of FedEx anything unless I need them to deliver something for me. When I DO pay them for their services, they never let me down. They can tell me where my letter or package is at any given moment in time. Now calculate how much it would cost the USPS to do the same thing. Don;t forget to add in the tax dollars you have already paid in. Hint: we're getting phuct. |
I use the USPS for pretty much everything.......recently, I lost my mind and sent something UPS from here where I work.
They could not, and did not track it properly, lied to me about it, and took twice as long to deliver it as they promised......and at about ten times what the USPS would have charged.
I won't use FedEx at all since they are basically inconvenient as Hell to use for a private citizen......why should I have to drive somewhere to have a courier service do something for me?
I have never had one iota of trouble with the USPS, and have nothing but high regard for their services.
Oh......and they are self-supporting, *zero* tax dollars.
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08/22/2009 09:07:49 AM · #671 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Do what thing? If I need the extra services like package tracking then sure I'll go with UPS. How does this even remotely prove your point about USPS being a failure? What because they don't offer package tracking? I've used USPS to ship many packages and guess what they all get delivered. Maybe it's just you getting phuct? Ever thought of that? |
Umm.....USPS *does* have package tracking.....
USPS Track & Confirm
They also have insurance & delivery receipt services.
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08/22/2009 09:14:52 AM · #672 |
A funny thing about the competition argument was when a College kid from a State school asked either a Senator or the Prez about competition and costs.
There plenty of businesses that compete with the government and do quite well.
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08/22/2009 11:28:09 AM · #673 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by yanko:
Do what thing? If I need the extra services like package tracking then sure I'll go with UPS. How does this even remotely prove your point about USPS being a failure? What because they don't offer package tracking? I've used USPS to ship many packages and guess what they all get delivered. Maybe it's just you getting phuct? Ever thought of that? |
Umm.....USPS *does* have package tracking.....
USPS Track & Confirm
They also have insurance & delivery receipt services. |
Dammit Jeb. I was trying to be nice and concede that one point.
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08/22/2009 12:01:56 PM · #674 |
Originally posted by ericwoo:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
As for Eric, who has made it very clear that as long as he's got his, the rest of us can suck eggs, yes, I'd call that selfish. What would you call it? He has also stated that until the powers-that-be can guarantee that there are zero cheaters in the welfare system, he will be against reform of the health care system. I say that's an excuse for doing nothing. I'd love to rid the system of the few bad apples, but I don't see why the existence of those bad apples should stand in the way of us reforming health care. |
Therein completely lies the issue. You, in your little dream world, think that there are only a few bad apples in the country. Wake up and look around. Have you ever even been to an inner city, low income housing area? I bet you've been there almost as much as you have read through the various health care reform bills. Take a ride, or as such a hurting self-employed individual, a walk around the 'projects' and count the luxury SUVs you see. Peek in and count the plasmas, LCDs, and the groqing number of LEDs. Count the PS3s, the Xboxes, the Wiis. The count their kids, their income from welfare, their food stamps, their medicaid healthcare, and THEN tell me that the problem is isolated. You cannot. I'm guessing that I am safe in assuming that you don't have very many of those areas in 'up-sate' NY, do you? Well, pull your head out of your ass and swing down into the big city. Peek around and tell me how I am wrong. You can't because I am not. Fix the abusers in the systems already in place, and then let's talk. Would you vote for mandatory birth control, drug testing, and proof of where you spent your last government supplemented income? Let me guess...somehow that infringes on the 'rights' of those that constantly suck the government tit. Keep living in your little dream world and I'll keep screaming the truth as I see it. |
I've noticed that not once have you posted a link to any hard statistics to back up your assertion that this problem is as large as you seem to think it is. For your information, I was raised in New York City and lived in Washington, D.C. for 20 years, so I'm well acquainted with poverty. The county where I now reside in upstate New York is one of the poorest in the country. Do you think poverty doesn't exist in rural areas of this country? I suggest YOU get out and take a drive around and tell me how many of the poor people where I live are on food stamps and tooling around in brand-new SUVs -- none that I've observed. You're talking about a criminal element, and I'd wager that it's a very small portion of the folks who move in and out of the welfare system. And while I'm waiting for you to produce some hard facts on this issue, you can also explain what the hell this has to do with reforming health care. |
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08/22/2009 12:29:07 PM · #675 |
| There was a Cadillac dealership in the north side of Hartford, It was not for the rich, hell not even the working poor went there. |
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