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08/20/2009 07:45:06 PM · #26 |
He was given a life sentence. Evidently we feel bad if we put someone in jail for life, and they actually die there...
However, it does appear that there is a reasonable amount of sentiment that he might have been a fall guy, and possibly even innocent. So, if he is let go a few months early, does it make all that big a difference in the grand scheme of things. By the looks of him, I don't think he is in much shape to do much more damage to the world.
Since I am in the US, and it was a crime committed in Scotland, I figure it is their decision. I trust they did the right thing.
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08/20/2009 07:58:24 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
By the looks of him, I don't think he is in much shape to do much more damage to the world.
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Oh yeah, defintely let him off then - maybe they should let you ring the children of the mothers and fathers kill and say "You know that guy who killed your dad, well he is really really ill and to be honest its unlikely he will be able to hurt anyone again, so we are going to let him out so he can say goodbye to his family unlike your father who was on his way home for Christmas to see his kids and didn`t have a chance to say goodbye as he was blown out of the air, he may of had a few seconds of utter terror as he plummeted towards the ground in the freezing cold and pitch black, but the chances are the he would of passed out in under 2 seconds - is that OK?"
x 270
Message edited by author 2009-08-20 19:59:06. |
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08/20/2009 08:07:27 PM · #28 |
Maybe some didnt pass out or die right away..
All 243 passengers and 16 crew members were killed. Eleven residents of Lockerbie also died. Most of the passengers were from the United States. A Scottish Fatal Accident Inquiry, which opened on 1 October 1990, heard that, when the cockpit broke off, tornado-force winds tore through the fuselage, tearing clothes off passengers and turning insecurely-fixed items like food and drink trolleys into lethal objects. Because of the sudden change in air pressure, the gases inside the passengers' bodies would have expanded to four times their normal volume, causing their lungs to swell and then collapse. People and objects not fixed down would have been blown out of the aircraft into the -46 degree (celsius) outside air, their 31,000-foot (9,400 m) fall lasting about two minutes. Some passengers remained attached to the fuselage by their seat belts, crashing in Lockerbie strapped to their seats.
Although the passengers would have lost consciousness through lack of oxygen, forensic examiners believe some of them might have regained consciousness as they fell toward oxygen-rich lower altitudes. Forensic pathologist Dr William G. Eckert, director of the Milton Helpern International Center of Forensic Sciences at Wichita State University, who examined the autopsy evidence, told Scottish police he believed the flight crew, some of the flight attendants, and 147 other passengers survived the bomb blast and depressurization of the aircraft, and may have been alive on impact. None of these passengers showed signs of injury from the explosion itself, or from the decompression and disintegration of the aircraft.
Message edited by author 2009-08-20 20:15:34. |
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08/20/2009 09:00:05 PM · #29 |
the thought of me being forcibly thrown out of a plane and being forced to free fall makes me nauseous.
if i ever need to be tortured, that would be the way to do it. . . . |
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08/20/2009 09:19:05 PM · #30 |
Same could be said about Charles Manson. Perhaps next time he goes to the Parole Board they should give him his walking papers?
Originally posted by ambaker:
By the looks of him, I don't think he is in much shape to do much more damage to the world.
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08/20/2009 09:33:24 PM · #31 |
Too many people make judgements based on hearsay.
Do you know in your hearts that this man actually committed the offence?
Are you believing the media hype instead of investigating everything for yourself?
It's very easy for the powers that be to spread lies through the media and have the world believe everything they hear to be true regardless of the lack of integrity of the information.
The world tends to believe everything they hear through the media, and the powers that be know that and use it to their advantage.
Don't believe me? Take a look at this Who or what influences your mind? |
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08/21/2009 03:02:01 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by karmat:
the thought of me being forcibly thrown out of a plane and being forced to free fall makes me nauseous.
if i ever need to be tortured, that would be the way to do it. . . . |
noted. |
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08/21/2009 12:44:01 PM · #33 |
they arent doing him some kind of favor, from what ive read, this is normal for people who are incarcerated in the UK and terminally ill.
It might upset people in this case, but lets not call for a return to medieval methods of punishment |
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08/21/2009 01:04:51 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by ambaker:
By the looks of him, I don't think he is in much shape to do much more damage to the world.
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Oh yeah, defintely let him off then - maybe they should let you ring the children of the mothers and fathers kill and say "You know that guy who killed your dad, well he is really really ill and to be honest its unlikely he will be able to hurt anyone again, so we are going to let him out so he can say goodbye to his family unlike your father who was on his way home for Christmas to see his kids and didn`t have a chance to say goodbye as he was blown out of the air, he may of had a few seconds of utter terror as he plummeted towards the ground in the freezing cold and pitch black, but the chances are the he would of passed out in under 2 seconds - is that OK?"
x 270 |
Amazingly enough, you seemed to have slept all the way through my post to the last sentence.
I never meant, and I am relatively confident that even you understand this, that the sole reason he should be let go because he doesn't look like he is in much shape to do much more damage tot he world.
I do not have all the facts, if indeed anyone does. His sentence appears to have included the possibility of parole. At least to my limited understanding of Scottish law. There appears to be a significant amount of sentiment within those who are closer to the case, that he may not be guilty. So, given all these things together, and given that fact that we here in the US do not ask the permission of Scotland to do things like parole members of the Manson family, I feel it is not my call.
And again, now that he has been allowed to go home to die, are the fathers you speak of any more dead? Are they any less loved by their children? Is it making a huge difference in their lives? Amazing enough, for you I'm sure, some of the victims families have called for his release. Have called for this show of compassion by the Scottish government. Perhaps they will help me make the calls... |
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08/21/2009 01:11:13 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by kolasi:
they arent doing him some kind of favor, from what ive read, this is normal for people who are incarcerated in the UK and terminally ill.
It might upset people in this case, but lets not call for a return to medieval methods of punishment |
I seriously doubt that anyone is suggesting that the man be tortured... rather, the prevailing view would seem to be that the time of incarceration is far to lenient. I can fully appreciate the fact that he may be terminally ill, but surely a penalty of something akin to 14 days in prision for each of the lives taken defies logic in anyone's book.
Sorry for sounding rather draconian, but release from prison was way too premature in this instance.
Ray |
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08/21/2009 01:20:50 PM · #36 |
My comment about medieval law was meant towards comments about killing him or throwing him off a plane as was mentioned here.
If he had commited the crimes when he was 20 and tried the same year he would still be in jail now, he is released because he is going to die soon from cancer, not because someone felt he did enough time. That is the law regarding terminally ill prisoners. right or wrong |
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08/21/2009 01:25:40 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I can fully appreciate the fact that he may be terminally ill, but surely a penalty of something akin to 14 days in prision for each of the lives taken defies logic in anyone's book. |
His sentence was 27 years before he could be considered for parole.
Not to mention the conviction was unstable anyway, there was a possible miscarriage of justice (as reported by the Scottish criminal cases review commission) which is why there was actually an appeal in progress at the time of his release.
In fact, in his statement al-Megrahi implied he would rather have been cleared of the crime on appeal, rather than dying as a convicted murderer.
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08/21/2009 01:58:58 PM · #38 |
everyone is different, but........Prostate cancer is a SLOW moving cancer. Having prostate cancer and being told you have three months is not enough reason. We went through this with my father-in-law and when they told him 6 months (at which time he had issues standing and walking by himself unlike the recount of this guy's "hero's welcome") and my father-in-law was luckily with us for another 2.5 years! And dad was visibly bad when they told him.
Assuming this guy is truly the guilty party, he was set free WAY to soon, using the cancer as the reason. |
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08/21/2009 02:14:30 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by kolasi:
My comment about medieval law was meant towards comments about killing him or throwing him off a plane as was mentioned here.
If he had commited the crimes when he was 20 and tried the same year he would still be in jail now, he is released because he is going to die soon from cancer, not because someone felt he did enough time. That is the law regarding terminally ill prisoners. right or wrong |
If I have missed it, please correct me, but there was no mention of throwing him off a plane was there? |
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08/21/2009 02:22:14 PM · #40 |
| Getting off "Scot-free" isn't exactly a new term. ;-) |
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08/21/2009 02:35:53 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I can fully appreciate the fact that he may be terminally ill, but surely a penalty of something akin to 14 days in prision for each of the lives taken defies logic in anyone's book. |
His sentence was 27 years before he could be considered for parole.
Not to mention the conviction was unstable anyway, there was a possible miscarriage of justice (as reported by the Scottish criminal cases review commission) which is why there was actually an appeal in progress at the time of his release.
In fact, in his statement al-Megrahi implied he would rather have been cleared of the crime on appeal, rather than dying as a convicted murderer. |
If indeed there was a miscarriage of justice then by all means conduct the necessary reviews and undertake the requisite corrective actions. It is premature to suggest that the man was innocent and this undertaking by the Scottish government does little to install a sense justice in the minds of many.
Perhaps the Scottish judicial system could take this one step further and grant this poor soul a full pardon... we wouldn't want an innocent man's reputation to be tarnished.
You are right when you state that his sentence was a full 27 years, but considering the amount of time he did in fact spend in prison, it equates to approximately 14 days of detention for each of the lives lost... and that seems rather paltry a punishment.
Ray |
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08/21/2009 03:10:41 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Getting off "Scot-free" isn't exactly a new term. ;-) |
Nor does it have anthing to do with Scotland. |
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08/21/2009 04:14:16 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Getting off "Scot-free" isn't exactly a new term. ;-) |
Nor does it have anthing to do with Scotland. |
Nor does it have anything to do with him being released on compassionate grounds.
It is not normal for prisoners in the UK to be released on compassionate grounds, and when they are, they are realeased to a hospice or hospital to die within days. Not with a year to go.
The only logical reason for this realease is for political reasons.
And there is know way the UK government would do this without USA approval.
His realese also halts any chance of the appeal which was quite likely to have cleared him, leaving egg on lots of faces.
Also the UK`s BP and Shell and USA have invested billions in Libya oil.
Scotland is now the scapegoat. |
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08/21/2009 04:47:38 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by marbo:
Originally posted by ambaker:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Getting off "Scot-free" isn't exactly a new term. ;-) |
Nor does it have anthing to do with Scotland. |
Nor does it have anything to do with him being released on compassionate grounds.
It is not normal for prisoners in the UK to be released on compassionate grounds, and when they are, they are realeased to a hospice or hospital to die within days. Not with a year to go.
The only logical reason for this realease is for political reasons.
And there is know way the UK government would do this without USA approval.
His realese also halts any chance of the appeal which was quite likely to have cleared him, leaving egg on lots of faces.
Also the UK`s BP and Shell and USA have invested billions in Libya oil.
Scotland is now the scapegoat. |
Exactly. It was a political move by Scottish government, directed by UK government to clear the way for re-intergration of Libya so trade could resume with them. As to the appeal being dropped, this was not his first appeal, he had tried a few times before to get the case reopened. However, it is reported, that had the appeal been reopened, there was far more damning evidence held by the Scottish Judisicary that would have been brought out into the open, not all the evidence was made public, nor has been. It implicates him and others, but now we will never know the full truth.
If there is so much compassion about releasing a dying man by the USA, why has it been so roundly condemned by Obama and many others, surely just the celebrations on his return would not have invoked such talk? Unless, and this is probably the answer, it has been a face saving exercise by all governments, it will soon be forgotten and the trading can then start.
As an end note, I still think he should have been left to die in that cell. If anyone can honestly say that with todays technology he was innocent, then they should have a suite booked in cloud cuckooland. The evidence from the case has been reviewed and examined since the day he was jailed until his release! |
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08/21/2009 05:27:40 PM · #45 |
We Americans blew it.
We should have charged him in the US and had him extradited - Im sure Britain would have honored our extradition request. Yes, some slick lawyer may have ultimately gotten him off of the US charges under double jepardy, but that could have taken many months and he would have died in a US prison. |
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08/24/2009 08:05:36 AM · #46 |
| Scottish `Minister` to be question by the Scottish puppet parliament this afternoon. I see a resignation on the cards. |
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08/24/2009 09:20:40 AM · #47 |
| It's about oil and that's what's most troubling. We ALL seem to be willing to compromise our values if it gets us a good energy deal. Scotland made a bad move but the US isn't exactly pure in our own actions. |
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08/24/2009 09:59:38 AM · #48 |
For our (USA) part, we cannot claim a whole lot better.
Remember Mai Lai? Lt. Calley? Between 347 & 504 people were killed (depending on whom your believe). Some mutillated, some sexually abused. 4 1/2 months in jail for the whole deal.
Finally apologized for it last week. No cancer, just connections. The witnesses who turned him in, received death threats, the condemnation of congress, and only after 30 years were they recognized for their efforts to save lives that day.
Before we throw rocks at Scotland, perhaps we should apologize to the families of those who were killed in Mai Lai. Maybe Viet Nam screwed up and should have tried Calley themselves. |
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08/25/2009 07:11:18 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
For our (USA) part, we cannot claim a whole lot better.
Remember Mai Lai? Lt. Calley? Between 347 & 504 people were killed (depending on whom your believe). Some mutillated, some sexually abused. 4 1/2 months in jail for the whole deal.
Finally apologized for it last week. No cancer, just connections. The witnesses who turned him in, received death threats, the condemnation of congress, and only after 30 years were they recognized for their efforts to save lives that day.
Before we throw rocks at Scotland, perhaps we should apologize to the families of those who were killed in Mai Lai. Maybe Viet Nam screwed up and should have tried Calley themselves. |
The Mai Lai circumstances were very different.
The following are facts:
We were at war there.
Villages and Villagers often harbored or were the Viet Cong fighters, who killed US Soldiers.
The act was not planned in advance - by all accounts it was spontaneous.
Clearly Mai Lai was not our finest moment, but there arent many parallels with Lockerbie. |
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08/25/2009 08:20:01 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by photodude:
[snip]
The Mai Lai circumstances were very different.[/snip] |
I don't think ambaker was comparing the two events as much as the fact that in both instances politics seems to have trumped justice ... |
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