U.S. ObamaCare... - DPChallenge Forums

08/20/2009 10:53:55 AM · #626

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Originally posted by VitaminB:
And True â�� but only because this is a universal truth that we need to make our peace with. Yes, the provincial plans are always struggling. So is every single publicly-funded health care system in the world, including the VA and Medicare. Thereâ��s always tension between what the users of the system want, and what the taxpayers are willing to pay.

My point exactly. The government is not capable of running the system efficiently, or even responsibly in my opinion.

And the private insurance companies run some very efficient programs.... for them!not for their clients! that's whole difference. you know, the part you left out where VitaminB talked about accountability.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

08/20/2009 01:30:55 PM · #627

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I have nothing but disdain for these people as Eric has nothing but disdain for the people who choose to make a career out of milking the government teat.

I did live in a place for about five years where I saw what he speaks of, and saw the results of people driving around in new cars, with cell phones & cigarettes paid for while they never worked a day in their lives, yet they were able bodied. Kinda hard not to have a bad impression of this kind of behavior if you live amongst it every day.

I know we're supposed to have compassion for our fellow man, but some days that takes a lot of effort when the terrible attitudes and behaviors are thrust in your face.

Yeah, but Eric's basically in the position of saying we should not be funding the programs that make this sort of abuse possible. And he can't have it both ways. He's defending the current health insurance system by saying that, at worst, "only" 15% of Americans are not currently covered, and he says that's not a bad number, "we" can live with that. But at the same time he's preaching what seems to be zero tolerance on the other side of the coin: never mind that 85% of the people who benefit from these programs are not leeches and parasites but are, in fact, the very people we rely on to keep the society greased up and running, the low-end, minimum-wage population that doesn't (in today's economic climate) have a prayer of improving itself on a month-to-month basis, and anyway even if they DID then who would be doing the scut work, but never mind that, right? Let's do away witht hese programs because some percentage of the population abuses them.

Geeze Louise... Talk about using numbers selectively.

R.

Furthermore, he does not care if all the abuse of the system could be eliminated, he still doesn't want his tax dollars used to help even worthy but struggling people.

Originally posted by ericwoo:

I don't care if you abuse the system or not, I don't think I should EVER have to pay for any of your living expenses

His resentment trumps every other consideration. There's really no way to argue with that.

rooum

08/20/2009 01:45:53 PM · #628

Well, as a Brit who, along with almost everyone else in the UK, is all for the NHS i'm finding the raging debate in the US over this quite fascinating and bizarre. It seems to be a debate with the quite sensible on one side and raging right-wing maniacs on the other. I, for the life of me, can't understand how so many people can be so gullible and believe the nonsense that is so obviously being leaked from the insurance and pharmaceutical companies. Still, it makes for great viewing as alway. Whilst shaking my head in dismay in the snooty British superior way of course! ;) I Luvs the death panels me!

I like the recent Jon Stewart clip...

Jon Stewart

Message edited by author 2009-08-20 13:47:23.

cynthiann

Nikon D810

08/20/2009 02:17:37 PM · #629

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Yes, I can only imagine how it must look from the outside. It's quite embarrassing.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

08/20/2009 02:42:10 PM · #630

I love the leftâ��s argument tactics. Avoid facts and evidence based debate, stick to name calling and character attacks. Do they teach that somewhere? Stay classy liberals!

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

08/20/2009 02:53:34 PM · #631

Originally posted by merchillio:

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Originally posted by VitaminB:
And True â�� but only because this is a universal truth that we need to make our peace with. Yes, the provincial plans are always struggling. So is every single publicly-funded health care system in the world, including the VA and Medicare. Thereâ��s always tension between what the users of the system want, and what the taxpayers are willing to pay.

My point exactly. The government is not capable of running the system efficiently, or even responsibly in my opinion.

And the private insurance companies run some very efficient programs.... for them!not for their clients! that's whole difference. you know, the part you left out where VitaminB talked about accountability.

But that would blow away his whole argument so why mention that? Why mention the fact that having a government option when it comes to mailing packages or getting an education hasn't hurt the private sector. Last I checked, private schools and companies like FedEx and UPS are actually thriving despite there being government alternatives to their services. Imagine that?

Message edited by author 2009-08-20 14:54:30.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Obama Guarantees Health Care Overhaul Will Pass

08/20/2009 04:39:30 PM · #632

08/20/2009 04:43:47 PM · #633

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by merchillio:

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Originally posted by VitaminB:
And True â�� but only because this is a universal truth that we need to make our peace with. Yes, the provincial plans are always struggling. So is every single publicly-funded health care system in the world, including the VA and Medicare. Thereâ��s always tension between what the users of the system want, and what the taxpayers are willing to pay.

My point exactly. The government is not capable of running the system efficiently, or even responsibly in my opinion.

And the private insurance companies run some very efficient programs.... for them!not for their clients! that's whole difference. you know, the part you left out where VitaminB talked about accountability.

But that would blow away his whole argument so why mention that? Why mention the fact that having a government option when it comes to mailing packages or getting an education hasn't hurt the private sector. Last I checked, private schools and companies like FedEx and UPS are actually thriving despite there being government alternatives to their services. Imagine that?

Yeah, great argument there! Private schools, FedEx and UPS are thriving. Meanwhile, we continue to dump money into the failing postal service and private schools. That is exactly my problem with the government having their hands deep into health care. Government options fail. I absolutely agree that insurance companies are also inefficient. However, adding MORE inefficiency to the mix is about as ridiculous as using the USPS and public schools as an example of governmental success.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

08/20/2009 04:46:06 PM · #634

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Obama Guarantees Health Care Overhaul Will Pass

From the article:
President Barack Obama guaranteed Thursday that his health care overhaul will win approval and said any bill he signs will have to reduce rapidly rising costs, protect consumers from insurance abuses and provide affordable choices to the uninsured â�� while not adding to the federal deficit.
end quote

Well, finally me and Mr. O agree on something. I haven't read through the entire article, as I am a bit rushed, but that opening paragraph I like!

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

08/20/2009 04:49:52 PM · #635

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Obama Guarantees Health Care Overhaul Will Pass

Originally posted by the article:

...any bill he signs will have to reduce rapidly rising costs, protect consumers from insurance abuses and provide affordable choices to the uninsured â�� while not adding to the federal deficit.

And when/if he signs that bill I'll be very happy.

However, the plans I seen being tossed around containing a govt run option only does one of those four things.

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

08/20/2009 05:22:21 PM · #636

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I have nothing but disdain for these people as Eric has nothing but disdain for the people who choose to make a career out of milking the government teat.

I did live in a place for about five years where I saw what he speaks of, and saw the results of people driving around in new cars, with cell phones & cigarettes paid for while they never worked a day in their lives, yet they were able bodied. Kinda hard not to have a bad impression of this kind of behavior if you live amongst it every day.

I know we're supposed to have compassion for our fellow man, but some days that takes a lot of effort when the terrible attitudes and behaviors are thrust in your face.

Yeah, but Eric's basically in the position of saying we should not be funding the programs that make this sort of abuse possible. And he can't have it both ways. He's defending the current health insurance system by saying that, at worst, "only" 15% of Americans are not currently covered, and he says that's not a bad number, "we" can live with that. But at the same time he's preaching what seems to be zero tolerance on the other side of the coin: never mind that 85% of the people who benefit from these programs are not leeches and parasites but are, in fact, the very people we rely on to keep the society greased up and running, the low-end, minimum-wage population that doesn't (in today's economic climate) have a prayer of improving itself on a month-to-month basis, and anyway even if they DID then who would be doing the scut work, but never mind that, right? Let's do away witht hese programs because some percentage of the population abuses them.

Geeze Louise... Talk about using numbers selectively.

R.

Furthermore, he does not care if all the abuse of the system could be eliminated, he still doesn't want his tax dollars used to help even worthy but struggling people.

Do you constantly spew ignorance, or is it just part of your character. I have repeatedly said that I don't mind helping those that are down for an interim period of time IF the government could clean the abuse out of the wasteful programs it already administers. However, I do not thinks its fair for YOU to expect ME to cover your living expenses. If you hit a snag in life, there should be some help temporary available. However, after a short period of time, you need to get off your ass and take care of yourself along with taking care of your family needs. Address the abuse, then we can consider adding more help. Until then, it will just be more added opportunities for abuse.

Originally posted by ericwoo:

I don't care if you abuse the system or not, I don't think I should EVER have to pay for any of your living expenses

His resentment trumps every other consideration. There's really no way to argue with that. [/quote]

Yet you keep trying. Again, a temporary hand isn't covering you lifetime expenses. There is room for some compromise, but not until you liberals stop handing out the country and all its resources because you heart bleeds at life's every little injustice. Handouts lead to abuse. If we are to give a helping hand, we should absolutely expect something in return form those being helped. Again, I don;t think I should ever have to pay for your living expenses, If you are in a bind and need help, you can have help as long as you are willing to give something back. Make that happen, and I'd be more apt to support more that the government does.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

08/20/2009 07:13:41 PM · #637

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by merchillio:

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Originally posted by VitaminB:
And True â�� but only because this is a universal truth that we need to make our peace with. Yes, the provincial plans are always struggling. So is every single publicly-funded health care system in the world, including the VA and Medicare. Thereâ��s always tension between what the users of the system want, and what the taxpayers are willing to pay.

My point exactly. The government is not capable of running the system efficiently, or even responsibly in my opinion.

And the private insurance companies run some very efficient programs.... for them!not for their clients! that's whole difference. you know, the part you left out where VitaminB talked about accountability.

But that would blow away his whole argument so why mention that? Why mention the fact that having a government option when it comes to mailing packages or getting an education hasn't hurt the private sector. Last I checked, private schools and companies like FedEx and UPS are actually thriving despite there being government alternatives to their services. Imagine that?

Yeah, great argument there! Private schools, FedEx and UPS are thriving. Meanwhile, we continue to dump money into the failing postal service and private schools. That is exactly my problem with the government having their hands deep into health care. Government options fail. I absolutely agree that insurance companies are also inefficient. However, adding MORE inefficiency to the mix is about as ridiculous as using the USPS and public schools as an example of governmental success.

If you want to argue costs, that's fair. Saying "Government options fail" is a flat out lie. Every one of the programs mentioned in this thread still function today and will tomorrow. Now I can give you a long list of private companies who have actually failed and gone out of business or worse stay in business by defrauding people. By your logic I should be able to claim capitalism has failed.

08/20/2009 07:32:58 PM · #638

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Umm.....what's wrong with the USPS?

Last time I checked, it's doing fine, and I have much less grief moving things around with them than UPS and FedEx, and for considerably less money.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/20/2009 07:39:00 PM · #639

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Again, a temporary hand isn't covering you lifetime expenses. There is room for some compromise, but not until you liberals stop handing out the country and all its resources because you heart bleeds at life's every little injustice. Handouts lead to abuse. If we are to give a helping hand, we should absolutely expect something in return form those being helped. Again, I don;t think I should ever have to pay for your living expenses, If you are in a bind and need help, you can have help as long as you are willing to give something back. Make that happen, and I'd be more apt to support more that the government does.

I have no issue with this reasoning.....

I'm pretty much of the opinion that things like welfare and food stamps ought to have a catch.....accountability, like receipts, drug testing, signed statements from employers turning down an application for employment......I'd like to know that these monies are not being used for cell phones & cigarettes.

There is too much abuse of the systems in place......and that also goes for third party administrators as well......if you're handling government funds to implement a program, you better damn well be able to account for them.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

08/20/2009 08:10:36 PM · #640

Originally posted by LoudDog:

I love the leftâ��s argument tactics. Avoid facts and evidence based debate, stick to name calling and character attacks. Do they teach that somewhere? Stay classy liberals!

And just who started characterizing it as "Obama-care" ...? AFAIK, most of the "manuals" which have been published detailing how to distort facts or disrupt meetings have come from those opposed to changes in the current system ... and Ms. Palin who earned a "Pants on Fire" rating for her mischaracterizations of the supposed "death panels" ... a plea for fact-based debate from your side would certainly be a unique experience.

Message edited by author 2009-08-20 20:20:58.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

08/20/2009 09:10:42 PM · #641

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I have nothing but disdain for these people as Eric has nothing but disdain for the people who choose to make a career out of milking the government teat.

I did live in a place for about five years where I saw what he speaks of, and saw the results of people driving around in new cars, with cell phones & cigarettes paid for while they never worked a day in their lives, yet they were able bodied. Kinda hard not to have a bad impression of this kind of behavior if you live amongst it every day.

I know we're supposed to have compassion for our fellow man, but some days that takes a lot of effort when the terrible attitudes and behaviors are thrust in your face.

Yeah, but Eric's basically in the position of saying we should not be funding the programs that make this sort of abuse possible. And he can't have it both ways. He's defending the current health insurance system by saying that, at worst, "only" 15% of Americans are not currently covered, and he says that's not a bad number, "we" can live with that. But at the same time he's preaching what seems to be zero tolerance on the other side of the coin: never mind that 85% of the people who benefit from these programs are not leeches and parasites but are, in fact, the very people we rely on to keep the society greased up and running, the low-end, minimum-wage population that doesn't (in today's economic climate) have a prayer of improving itself on a month-to-month basis, and anyway even if they DID then who would be doing the scut work, but never mind that, right? Let's do away witht hese programs because some percentage of the population abuses them.

Geeze Louise... Talk about using numbers selectively.

R.

Furthermore, he does not care if all the abuse of the system could be eliminated, he still doesn't want his tax dollars used to help even worthy but struggling people.

Do you constantly spew ignorance, or is it just part of your character. I have repeatedly said that I don't mind helping those that are down for an interim period of time IF the government could clean the abuse out of the wasteful programs it already administers. However, I do not thinks its fair for YOU to expect ME to cover your living expenses. If you hit a snag in life, there should be some help temporary available. However, after a short period of time, you need to get off your ass and take care of yourself along with taking care of your family needs. Address the abuse, then we can consider adding more help. Until then, it will just be more added opportunities for abuse.

Originally posted by ericwoo:
I don't care if you abuse the system or not, I don't think I should EVER have to pay for any of your living expenses

His resentment trumps every other consideration. There's really no way to argue with that.

Yet you keep trying. Again, a temporary hand isn't covering you lifetime expenses. There is room for some compromise, but not until you liberals stop handing out the country and all its resources because you heart bleeds at life's every little injustice. Handouts lead to abuse. If we are to give a helping hand, we should absolutely expect something in return form those being helped. Again, I don;t think I should ever have to pay for your living expenses, If you are in a bind and need help, you can have help as long as you are willing to give something back. Make that happen, and I'd be more apt to support more that the government does. [/quote]

_______________________________________________________________________________

LOL! Since I was quoting you, and you characterized those words as "ignorant," well, I won't argue with you there. :-)

And I'm not arguing to try to change your mind, just using your opinions to argue against because they represent the views of so much of the right-wing in this country and, in my opinion, so much that's wrong with this country. What you don't get, or don't want to understand, is that there are an awful lot of people who play by the rules, never cheat, never try to goose the system, work hard their entire lives, and yet cannot now and never will be able to afford health care/health insurance, and no amount of "temporary" help is going to solve this problem. I know you don't give a damn about those people, and you use the "cheaters" as an excuse for not dealing with the inescapable truth about your beloved and fetishized free-market, and that truth is that sometimes it fails and fails miserably. All your crap arguments about health care reform costing too much, government not being efficient, the lazy bums taking advantage, blah blah blah... that's all bullshit, working-backwards logic because you start with the belief that "capitalism never fails," and then when you see obvious examples of failure, you must conclude that it's the individual who has fallen short. I mean, it's a beautiful little piece of self-deceptive ideology that gives people like you the perfect excuse to maintain your self-righteous anger and selfishness, and it's all crap.

Message edited by author 2009-08-20 21:15:41.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

08/20/2009 09:14:58 PM · #642

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by LoudDog:
I love the leftâ��s argument tactics. Avoid facts and evidence based debate, stick to name calling and character attacks. Do they teach that somewhere? Stay classy liberals!

And just who started characterizing it as "Obama-care" ...?

It's Obama's plan. Why not call it Obama care? I didn't think it was a bad thing? If the plan is so great, i'd think it would be a compliment.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

AFAIK, most of the "manuals" which have been published detailing how to distort facts or disrupt meetings have come from those opposed to changes in the current system ... and Ms. Palin who earned a "Pants on Fire" rating for her mischaracterizations of the supposed "death panels" ... a plea for fact-based debate from your side would certainly be a unique experience.

If you want to attack Palin's argument, she put out a pretty good expaination for why she called it that (I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with it). Take that and explain how her reasoning is wrong. Use your mind, debate her points. Address her arguments rather then just call her liar and tear apart her character!

Dems seem to think it's easier to diminish the messenger then the message.

Ironic that you attack someone's character while replying to my post complaining about libs attacking character rather then fact. I didn't see that coming.

08/20/2009 09:37:50 PM · #643

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

What you don't get, or don't want to understand, is that there are an awful lot of people who play by the rules, never cheat, never try to goose the system, work hard their entire lives, and yet cannot now and never will be able to afford health care/health insurance, and no amount of "temporary" help is going to solve this problem. I know you don't give a damn about those people, and you use the "cheaters" as an excuse for not dealing with the inescapable truth about your beloved and fetishized free-market, and that truth is that sometimes it fails and fails miserably. All your crap arguments about health care reform costing too much, government not being efficient, the lazy bums taking advantage, blah blah blah... that's all bullshit, working-backwards logic because you start with the belief that "capitalism never fails," and then when you see obvious examples of failure, you must conclude that it's the individual who has fallen short. I mean, it's a beautiful little piece of self-deceptive ideology that gives people like you the perfect excuse to maintain your self-righteous anger and selfishness, and it's all crap.

Umm.....

But isn't this capitalist society supposed to function that way? Yeah, stuff happens, but aren't we supposed to be accorded the right to succeed or fail by the fruits of our labors?

I went bankrupt due to circumstances that were within my control, but through a series of mistakes, and for a period, I had no health insurance 'cause I couldn't afford it.

But I didn't expect someone to pay for it for me. And like it or not, there is a lot of money that goes down the tubes by people "working" the system that shouldn't, don't need it, and that does create a strain on the system for the rest of us.

Are you interested in paying for insurance for other people with your wages/taxes?

I'd personally like to see a nationalized health system to get it out of the hands of for-profit insurance companies, but I'd like to see accountability go with it.

BTW, please think about how you view selfishness before you accuse someone else of being selfish because they don't want to give their money away. I don't want to throw mine down a black hole, and I sure don't need someone telling me I'm selfish because I want some accountability for where my money goes.......and am reluctant to give it up for your beliefs.

08/20/2009 09:39:34 PM · #644

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Address her arguments rather then just call her liar and tear apart her character!

Dems seem to think it's easier to diminish the messenger then the message.

Ironic that you attack someone's character while replying to my post complaining about libs attacking character rather then fact. I didn't see that coming.

Palin does a fine job of diminishing her own character with the incongruities of her words versus her actions.

08/21/2009 12:33:45 AM · #645

Originally posted by yanko:

By your logic, you cannot function AND fail at the same time? Ask Mr. Webster what he thinks of the word fail.

08/21/2009 12:35:41 AM · #646

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by ericwoo:
Again, a temporary hand isn't covering you lifetime expenses. There is room for some compromise, but not until you liberals stop handing out the country and all its resources because you heart bleeds at life's every little injustice. Handouts lead to abuse. If we are to give a helping hand, we should absolutely expect something in return form those being helped. Again, I don;t think I should ever have to pay for your living expenses, If you are in a bind and need help, you can have help as long as you are willing to give something back. Make that happen, and I'd be more apt to support more that the government does.

I have no issue with this reasoning.....

I'm pretty much of the opinion that things like welfare and food stamps ought to have a catch.....accountability, like receipts, drug testing, signed statements from employers turning down an application for employment......I'd like to know that these monies are not being used for cell phones & cigarettes.

There is too much abuse of the systems in place......and that also goes for third party administrators as well......if you're handling government funds to implement a program, you better damn well be able to account for them.

Jeb and Eric 2012.

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

08/21/2009 06:02:42 AM · #647

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Jeb and Eric 2012.

ROFL!

I can piss off as many people as I need to here......I don't think I need to go national........8>)

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

08/21/2009 08:05:18 AM · #648

08/21/2009 02:21:53 PM · #649

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by ericwoo:
Jeb and Eric 2012.

ROFL!

I can piss off as many people as I need to here......I don't think I need to go national........8>)

Come on...I hate poor people..you hate rich people...we both like Nikon, gays, and abortion. If that ain't the beginning of a sound platform and some interesting campaign promises, I don't know what is!