| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/19/2009 10:06:21 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
I was a member of another site where people often rated/commented on your photos. I would post a photo, and within half an hour I would get 30 comments saying R10, or great shot, look at my shots too. I got sick of the constant self promotion on that site, and the disingenuous comments. They did nothing for me... I would post what I now think is a very average, or below average image, and it would rate high, only because the raters wanted a rating in return... which would boost their images as well.
What I am getting at, is that forcing low voters to comment will result in a similar disingenuous comment. They will quickly say "nice shot", vote it a 1, and move on with their voting. They will not tell me that they voted it low for fear of being flamed in forums, or replies, or whatever. So, they will lie, and say, 'nice shot'.
Ideally, it would be great to find out why someone votes low.... But, the fact is, many votes of 1 are meant to sabbotage a score... nobody is going to comment 'I wanted to place higher, so I figured I would drop a 1 on your image'. Others that vote low because they dont like an image, might not want to be very honest about it, and will simple say "nice shot", "interesting shot"... |
Brad, I didn't consider this aspect of it. Thanks for your input...(BTW, check out my the link in my Sig!!!!) J/K ;)
- Alex
Message edited by author 2009-08-19 22:07:17.
|
|
|
|
08/19/2009 10:35:10 PM · #77 |
Two related points I haven't seen yet (in this thread):
1) I don't think you'll really learn much from a comment such as "your lighting/composition/idea just didn't inspire me - 4" -- certainly I wouldn't expect anyone to change their next entry in response.
2) You will learn something from comments you make, as studying exactly and specifically what "works" (or doesn't) about the lighting/composition/idea, and being able to articulate it, probably will affect how you shoot your next entry. |
|
|
|
08/19/2009 10:37:10 PM · #78 |
Thinking of starting a new thread in rant -
"Are Troll rights, including Troll voting, evolving?"
|
|
|
|
08/19/2009 10:51:54 PM · #79 |
Out of curiosity.. Can someone who's a math whiz or has a tricky dicky program installed on their puter tell me what this image would have scored if there were NO 1's, 2's or 3's... Just pretend they never happened.. Then, next pretend again those 1's, 2's and 3's never happend, but include those # of votes (in this case 6) but make them all 5's...and tell me what the score would have been..
I think this image got a great # of high votes and did average(on the voting scale only), so it's a perfect example.. I've never tried to figure out if the "troll" votes which I guess can be considered anything under a 4 effect the score of an image.. In general.. |
|
|
|
08/19/2009 11:29:35 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Out of curiosity.. Can someone who's a math whiz or has a tricky dicky program installed on their puter tell me what this image would have scored if there were NO 1's, 2's or 3's... Just pretend they never happened.. Then, next pretend again those 1's, 2's and 3's never happend, but include those # of votes (in this case 6) but make them all 5's...and tell me what the score would have been..
I think this image got a great # of high votes and did average(on the voting scale only), so it's a perfect example.. I've never tried to figure out if the "troll" votes which I guess can be considered anything under a 4 effect the score of an image.. In general.. |
The score, if all 1s, 2s, and 3s, where changed to 5s would be 5.6584
But... even the winning photo had a 1, and five 3's, so I think the 'trolls' were consistent.
Message edited by author 2009-08-19 23:30:42. |
|
|
|
08/19/2009 11:42:49 PM · #81 |
If there is no such thing as absolutely bad photo then there is no such thing as absolutely perfect photo. So scores of 1 and 10 both count for trolling.
The best way to remove trolling is to remove 1 and 10 from score bar.
PS but then 2 and 9 will be new trolling score and we shall remove them too, we do it untill we get our perfect scoring bar - nothing to nothing.
:-D |
|
|
|
08/19/2009 11:46:19 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Out of curiosity.. Can someone who's a math whiz or has a tricky dicky program installed on their puter tell me what this image would have scored if there were NO 1's, 2's or 3's... Just pretend they never happened.. Then, next pretend again those 1's, 2's and 3's never happend, but include those # of votes (in this case 6) but make them all 5's...and tell me what the score would have been..
I think this image got a great # of high votes and did average(on the voting scale only), so it's a perfect example.. I've never tried to figure out if the "troll" votes which I guess can be considered anything under a 4 effect the score of an image.. In general.. |
The score, if all 1s, 2s, and 3s, where changed to 5s would be 5.6584
But... even the winning photo had a 1, and five 3's, so I think the 'trolls' were consistent. |
THANK YOU !!! for figuring that out.... So, to me it seems then that trolls really don't have an effect on the score when all is said and done.. I mean, that would have made a tiny difference but if they left a comment & STILL gave you a 1, 2 or 3, then your score would be the same..
And, lets say we require everyone to leave a comment if they score an image a 1 or a 2.. What if it's someone like me who just simply didn't care for it..I have no technical where-with-all to advise the photographer on what they could have done better, I just thought it sucked and didn't meet the challenge or was poorly executed.. Would that comment really help any of us as photographers ??? It wouldn't help me.. I prefer the people who choose to NOT leave a comment just go on their merry way..
Besides, once you are here long enough and you RECEIVE a comment from someone, especially someone you really admire, then you realize the importance of comments.. They aren't so much to learn what you did wrong, but IMHO, to be recognized when you've done something right.. just my 2cents. |
|
|
|
08/19/2009 11:52:46 PM · #83 |
The best suggestion, like  GeneralE mentioned, is learning by making comments. Leaving a comment for someone forces you to look at the photo longer, and start to appreciate the art behind it.
Try leaving comments for all the photos in a challenge. Then, when your done, post the stats here:
100% Comments Club
You get a nice shiny badge for your profile page, and you have generated a lot of goodwill with the other photogs on the site. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 01:12:16 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by Alex_Europa:
You're right, but I don't know if I'd consider losing those people an actual loss.
- Alex |
It's more of a loss than you really might think. I've been on a site that allowed people to peer at your votes. That's right. No anonymous voting. It was a 1 - 10 vote also.... but because of the "transparent" voting, it really was a 6 - 10 site. I had people really bitch quite seriously when I gave their shots a 7 vote.
The comment made that you start commenting your self is a good suggestion. The hardest comments you'll make will be on the lowest scores you give. At least if you've got a heart. Because on some shots, you've really got to say: "Why in the hell did you do that?"
It took me a year here to learn the most important thing you can know about votes here: The voter is always right.
But far more important than that: Shoot things that please you and let the scores fall where they will. Remember: There is no spoon. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 01:16:07 AM · #85 |
Originally posted by wdamman:
The only way to see the "Avg Vote Cast" now is to enter a users profile. |
To lazy to look at a profile?
I bet you look at mine now. :) |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 01:17:47 AM · #86 |
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
One thing I have noticed when tracking a low voter is that they crash through the field at an alarming rate, ie just hitting 1 1 1 1 etc.
|
Why not start a ticket with the SC about this. I bet you'll learn that anyone doing what you just described will be getting
their vote scrubbed at rollover. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 01:28:00 AM · #87 |
Originally posted by Alex_Europa:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
So you're suggesting monitors now for the comments? and some sort of algorithm to determine if a comment is a good one or not? Why should anyone be forced to write something about an image that doesn't inspire them to do so? This is art? Do you honestly have something to say about every thing you dislike or do you feel that sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut? |
If I dislike it, then yes, I can think of SOMETHING to say about it. Are you saying that you can't? Sure, there will be the occasional photo that you dislike enough to give a 3, 2, or 1 yet can't quite put your finger as to the reason for the negative feeling, and that's fine...but those other 99 comments probably helped people out.
And no, not monitors. There is a "Report Post" button at the top of every comment...I merely suggest that it gets a bit of use when some leaves "asdf" to get around the proposed rule.
- Alex |
Accept the report post is for abusive/offensive comments. asdf is neither. If an image doesn't inspire me to comment I don't comment. That's it. It's not about having nothing to say.
You stated earlier that this site is about learning. You learn far more from commenting on others photos than you do from the ones received. The lack of comments on an image can be useful. The image wasn't inspiring enough to induce comments.
Message edited by author 2009-08-20 01:42:35. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 03:11:11 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by FireBird:
Originally posted by wdamman:
The only way to see the "Avg Vote Cast" now is to enter a users profile. |
To lazy to look at a profile?
I bet you look at mine now. :) |
avg vote cast could be misleading, for example my avg vote cast is around 6.
But one would be completely mistaken if he assumed i do not vote 1s.
I vote lots of 1s and lots of 10s. ( trolling???? )
|
|
|
|
08/20/2009 03:23:05 AM · #89 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by FireBird:
Originally posted by wdamman:
The only way to see the "Avg Vote Cast" now is to enter a users profile. |
To lazy to look at a profile?
I bet you look at mine now. :) |
avg vote cast could be misleading, for example my avg vote cast is around 6.
But one would be completely mistaken if he assumed i do not vote 1s.
I vote lots of 1s and lots of 10s. ( trolling???? ) |
I don't think anyone is suggesting that voting 1 should be outlawed, after all the scale is there to be used if desired.
In the case I put forward I watched someones average as they made 33 votes noting down the change in number of votes and average vote given from which I was able to calculate each vote.
32 1s and 1 10 is, I would think, tactical voting
Their votes did get scrubbed but on inspection it appears that they have done it again.
Message edited by author 2009-08-20 03:26:39. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 07:01:04 AM · #90 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by FireBird:
Originally posted by wdamman:
The only way to see the "Avg Vote Cast" now is to enter a users profile. |
To lazy to look at a profile?
I bet you look at mine now. :) |
avg vote cast could be misleading, for example my avg vote cast is around 6.
But one would be completely mistaken if he assumed i do not vote 1s.
I vote lots of 1s and lots of 10s. ( trolling???? ) |
I looked! Very nice :]
I have no problem with 1's or 10's but there are many voters that have an average in the 3's.
I'm not too lazy to look but there are 2694 pages of users and you need to look at their individual profile to see their average.
If it was shown on the search page along with their name, camera and registered date it might make a difference in how they vote.
At least they could see how others are averaging. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 07:46:02 AM · #91 |
Avoiding trolls is easy - stay out from under the bridge. Or is that Ogres...hmmm...
No matter what we, as voters or participants, or the Admins. do, people will always vote whatever way their conscious allows them to, using what ever motives are currently directing them. The best way, in my mind, to null any 'troll voting' is to vote honestly and consistently. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 08:38:43 AM · #92 |
Originally posted by FireBird:
The hardest comments you'll make will be on the lowest scores you give. At least if you've got a heart. Because on some shots, you've really got to say: "Why in the hell did you do that?" |
I find that for me as the voter/commenter, that the hardest ones are the 5's. These are the shots that are decent, but did not inspire me in any way. I find it hard to find faults, but something about them fails to grab me. These are the hardest ones for me to nail down a reason, and also the ones I learn the most from. I'm also afraid that because they are not terrible, that the critiques come off as anal nitpicking. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 09:37:00 AM · #93 |
The Trolls don't make much difference, and if anyone can't understand low scores on images, just create a thread about it, asking for comments. If your image really sucks you will receive constructive but negative comments. If your shot is great but you received 1's and 2's, there will always be someone to claim about it with you.
But i think the votes are just fine.
Message edited by author 2009-08-20 09:37:17. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 09:40:45 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by CEJ:
Avoiding trolls is easy - stay out from under the bridge. Or is that Ogres...hmmm... |
Nope, that's trolls under the bridges. Ogres live in swamps. Haven't you seen "Shrek"? Sheesh :-)
R. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 09:47:22 AM · #95 |
I don't understand this *need* some people have to hold us all accountable for our low votes, I really don't... It seems absurd to me.
Let me put it this way: if you think we have a trolling problem NOW, with people throwing out undeserved low votes just to mess with the system, imagine how much "fun" these trolls are gonna have when they realize they can deliberately enter the worst possible dreck into the challenges, totally DNMC pieces of utterly out-of-focus compositional junk, and force every conscientious voter to write a comment on same....; the only ones spared would be the *anti-trolls*, the ones who refuse to give votes lower than 3....
And don't think it wouldn't happen, LOL.
R. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 09:53:42 AM · #96 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
.... deliberately enter the worst possible dreck into the challenges, totally DNMC pieces of utterly out-of-focus compositional junk, and force every conscientious voter to write a comment on same.... |
Bear, you're an evil genius! :-D
|
|
|
|
08/20/2009 10:58:10 AM · #97 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by CEJ:
Avoiding trolls is easy - stay out from under the bridge. Or is that Ogres...hmmm... |
Nope, that's trolls under the bridges. Ogres live in swamps. Haven't you seen "Shrek"? Sheesh :-)
R. |
That's the main problem with these threads. Not enough knowledge about trolls!
The assumption that a troll knows how to read and write is quite bold, I think they don't. Yet you want them to leave properly spelled comments?! And how would they use a keyboard with their large fingers anyway? |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 10:59:30 AM · #98 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I don't understand this *need* some people have to hold us all accountable for our low votes, I really don't... It seems absurd to me.
R. |
This is exactly where I'm at.. What's this all about.. if you realize they may not & most likely have nothing informational about your photo to say and their low vote had very little impact on your score, then why all the fuss... |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 11:16:24 AM · #99 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Haven't you seen "Shrek"? Sheesh :-)
R. |
No.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I don't understand this *need* some people have to hold us all accountable for our low votes, I really don't... It seems absurd to me.
R. |
I don't get it either. I have a high vote cast average, but I certainly use the WHOLE scale when voting and I feel I use it very consistently. |
|
|
|
08/20/2009 11:25:32 AM · #100 |
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
Their votes did get scrubbed but on inspection it appears that they have done it again. |
So why the drama? They'll get scrubbed again. Just disable viewing of your score during voting and the trolls have no power over you. I disabled it on my account a long time ago. It's like waiting for film to develop. Fun! I'd much rather read the comments as they come in. My only ribbon came after I shut off viewing the scores. I could still tell by the number and nature of the incoming comments I'd done very well. And..... the surprise that I'd actually won a ribbon was much enhanced.
What prompted me to stop viewing the scores during the voting week was the roll-over one troll. This miscreant would quickly vote all entries a "1" right at midnight, at rollover. When that is your first vote it really looks bad. Of course the sap sucker would have all his votes scrubbed or would go back and vote them in a regular fashion later on after the initial slap.
|
|
