Christianity/Catholisim - DPChallenge Forums

04/12/2009 05:28:42 PM · #351

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Your position is equivalent to Deism and has been held by many respected people in the past. However, others hold that the all-powerful God has chosen to reveal his will and plans to us. It's a major philosophical split and your worldview is definitely shaped by which side you fall on.

04/12/2009 05:34:22 PM · #352

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Correct, however claiming that an omnipotent entity not only exists, but does so exclusive of any other unknown entities, has a particular list of demands, requires obedience, controls everything, has uttered specific known phrases, justifies certain actions, and cannot possibly be detected by natural means is quite a bit more than an hypothesis!

And THAT to me is what religion debates all come down to. There is no way to know if God exists. And I don't think I've ever seriously tried to argue that there isn't a God. What I do seriously argue is that us, lowly humans, have ANY idea what an all powerful, all knowing God wants. And when I say this, I get met with attitudes as if I don't respect God, when I think it means I respect God MORE to not fall for HUMANS speaking for it. I think if there is a God, it is more powerful than any human can wrap their brains around.

Your position is equivalent to Deism and has been held by many respected people in the past. However, others hold that the all-powerful God has chosen to reveal his will and plans to us. It's a major philosophical split and your worldview is definitely shaped by which side you fall on.

Ok supposing you fall on the side that he's chosen to reveal his plan. Why did he come around to reveal is plan when he did and then give no guidance in the future when humans royally foul up his plan? And, since he didn't give it directly to you, how do you know that you have the right one, or that perhaps he hasn't even given it yet, or that perhaps his original plan given was actually suppressed and changed hundreds of years before you were born?

I think that just puts too much faith in humans as the "carrier" of God's plan, which is all too often confused with faith in God. Which still leaves me at my original point. There is no way to know.

Message edited by author 2009-04-12 17:35:01.

04/12/2009 05:56:55 PM · #353

Originally posted by scalvert:

Correct, however claiming that an omnipotent entity not only exists, but does so exclusive of any other unknown entities, has a particular list of demands, requires obedience, controls everything, has uttered specific known phrases, justifies certain actions, and cannot possibly be detected by natural means is quite a bit more than an hypothesis!

Originally posted by escapetooz:

And THAT to me is what religion debates all come down to. There is no way to know if God exists. And I don't think I've ever seriously tried to argue that there isn't a God. What I do seriously argue is that us, lowly humans, have ANY idea what an all powerful, all knowing God wants. And when I say this, I get met with attitudes as if I don't respect God, when I think it means I respect God MORE to not fall for HUMANS speaking for it. I think if there is a God, it is more powerful than any human can wrap their brains around.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Yeah......that's pretty much where I am. I believe that God certainly isn't going to have people like televangelists being his messengers.

And I'm pretty much of the opinion that God's way is through personal guidance, not selecting a human to do His/Her work.

I really beleieve that God spoke to me once......I'm not going to go into it, because it pretty much set me back on my heels and wasn't even remotely what I would have expected......which is kinda ridiculous in and of itself since I would never have expected God to bother with little ol' me in the first place....but what God said really had no relevance to anyone or anything other than me, and how I should be. It wasn't a long discussion, and to this day I'm still kinda floored by the whole thing.

I feel kind of strange even mentioning it 'cause I really think that it's one of those weird things that you sort of nod and back away from if someone were to try to convince you that it really happened to them, and you might steer clear of them in the future.

Like I said before, I also think that part of the human makeup is to question, and I feel that part of the relationship with God, if you decide you want to have one is the whole mystery and nuances of it as it applies to your own situation.

I'm not even sure how the whole concept and idea like it works for me came about. There's not that much in the way of any great reason for me to have decided that there is Grace in my life, but I also think that part of what works for me is that I see things that really seem to just be more than good forutne that lead me to believe that God wants me to be graetful to Him/Her. I also have half a notion that God's a woman.....that would just be so right! LOL!!!

I cannot support any of this, obviously, but I like having the comfort and solace of feeling that God's looking out for my dumb ass.

04/12/2009 07:04:05 PM · #354

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by scalvert:
Correct, however claiming that an omnipotent entity not only exists, but does so exclusive of any other unknown entities, has a particular list of demands, requires obedience, controls everything, has uttered specific known phrases, justifies certain actions, and cannot possibly be detected by natural means is quite a bit more than an hypothesis!

Originally posted by escapetooz:
And THAT to me is what religion debates all come down to. There is no way to know if God exists. And I don't think I've ever seriously tried to argue that there isn't a God. What I do seriously argue is that us, lowly humans, have ANY idea what an all powerful, all knowing God wants. And when I say this, I get met with attitudes as if I don't respect God, when I think it means I respect God MORE to not fall for HUMANS speaking for it. I think if there is a God, it is more powerful than any human can wrap their brains around.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Your position is equivalent to Deism and has been held by many respected people in the past. However, others hold that the all-powerful God has chosen to reveal his will and plans to us. It's a major philosophical split and your worldview is definitely shaped by which side you fall on.

Originally posted by escapetooz:
Ok supposing you fall on the side that he's chosen to reveal his plan. Why did he come around to reveal is plan when he did and then give no guidance in the future when humans royally foul up his plan? And, since he didn't give it directly to you, how do you know that you have the right one, or that perhaps he hasn't even given it yet, or that perhaps his original plan given was actually suppressed and changed hundreds of years before you were born?

I think that just puts too much faith in humans as the "carrier" of God's plan, which is all too often confused with faith in God. Which still leaves me at my original point. There is no way to know.

Yeah......that's pretty much where I am. I believe that God certainly isn't going to have people like televangelists being his messengers.

And I'm pretty much of the opinion that God's way is through personal guidance, not selecting a human to do His/Her work.

I really beleieve that God spoke to me once......I'm not going to go into it, because it pretty much set me back on my heels and wasn't even remotely what I would have expected......which is kinda ridiculous in and of itself since I would never have expected God to bother with little ol' me in the first place....but what God said really had no relevance to anyone or anything other than me, and how I should be. It wasn't a long discussion, and to this day I'm still kinda floored by the whole thing.

I feel kind of strange even mentioning it 'cause I really think that it's one of those weird things that you sort of nod and back away from if someone were to try to convince you that it really happened to them, and you might steer clear of them in the future.

Like I said before, I also think that part of the human makeup is to question, and I feel that part of the relationship with God, if you decide you want to have one is the whole mystery and nuances of it as it applies to your own situation.

I'm not even sure how the whole concept and idea like it works for me came about. There's not that much in the way of any great reason for me to have decided that there is Grace in my life, but I also think that part of what works for me is that I see things that really seem to just be more than good forutne that lead me to believe that God wants me to be graetful to Him/Her. I also have half a notion that God's a woman.....that would just be so right! LOL!!!

I cannot support any of this, obviously, but I like having the comfort and solace of feeling that God's looking out for my dumb ass.

:) Hmm... curious. See, I would never nail someone to the wall for what they heard God say or try to make them "prove it" unless they were using it to relate to other people and what they should and shouldn't do with their lives. If God can communicate, he/she/it will tell me themselves. That is not to say I don't think there are people that change others lives and come together for a certain "purpose" but I think there role is to bring about change through example and actions and 2-way discussion, not "God thinks you should be doing this, so do it!"

One of the books I was reading on intuition is called "A still, small voice" The author of that is a psychic (and I know we could have a whole 'nother thread on THAT topic, lol) but she calls that still small voice giving her advice "God". One story for example is that she had the urge to stop at a store, NOW. A voice in her head just told her to though she didn't need to buy anything. So she did, and a man she met in that store that day she ended up dating for 5 years. Or how about a similar thing we can all relate to: when you get the urge to call a friend you haven't talked to in a long time and that moment they call you? I don't know if that is God or just some complicated connection of brain signals we will never understand, but I believe there is a lot going on we don't know about. So I guess my point was, I don't think it crazy when people say what you just have.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

04/12/2009 07:08:31 PM · #355

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

others hold that the all-powerful God has chosen to reveal his will and plans to us.

It's in that revelation that the interaction must occur, and much as you'd like to claim otherwise, any believer of any religion is ultimately relying on physical evidence, too. Whether by altering neurons to create thoughts in your mind, causing miracles to occur, or writing, "Yo, whassup? on the moon, the "revelation" must be perceptible in THIS world. To believe one particular religious view over another, you accept the evidence of that particular group's claimed evidence: ancient "eyewitness" accounts, personal anecdotes, presumed historical events and so on. Most religions primarily rely on copies of translations of written accounts of word of mouth stories of humans claiming to know what a being from another dimension said or wants. That's far less evidence than you would likely demand of even the most trivial claim in any arena outside of religious indoctrination, yet many devote their whole lives to it.

04/12/2009 09:50:56 PM · #356

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
others hold that the all-powerful God has chosen to reveal his will and plans to us.

It's in that revelation that the interaction must occur, and much as you'd like to claim otherwise, any believer of any religion is ultimately relying on physical evidence, too. Whether by altering neurons to create thoughts in your mind, causing miracles to occur, or writing, "Yo, whassup? on the moon, the "revelation" must be perceptible in THIS world. To believe one particular religious view over another, you accept the evidence of that particular group's claimed evidence: ancient "eyewitness" accounts, personal anecdotes, presumed historical events and so on. Most religions primarily rely on copies of translations of written accounts of word of mouth stories of humans claiming to know what a being from another dimension said or wants. That's far less evidence than you would likely demand of even the most trivial claim in any arena outside of religious indoctrination, yet many devote their whole lives to it.

And yet there it is. I'm losing track of the threads, but we've already dealt with the "copies of translations of written accounts of word of mouth stories" as pretty well bogus.

04/12/2009 09:52:45 PM · #357

Originally posted by escapetooz:

So I guess my point was, I don't think it crazy when people say what you just have.

But yet the moment that little voice says something that affects somebody else (ie. dictates morality), it's game over? It doesn't seem so consistent to me.

Message edited by author 2009-04-12 21:53:54.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/12/2009 10:34:33 PM · #358

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm losing track of the threads, but we've already dealt with the "copies of translations of written accounts of word of mouth stories" as pretty well bogus.

Most likely. ;-)

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/12/2009 10:36:29 PM · #359

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

But yet the moment that little voice says something that affects somebody else (ie. dictates morality), it's game over? It doesn't seem so consistent to me.

It depends how much the voice disagrees with what you sense to be right. If it it says "stop driving so fast, you are going to hurt someone", listen. If it tells you to kill your family and set fire to the house, its time to seek help.

04/12/2009 10:38:41 PM · #360

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm losing track of the threads, but we've already dealt with the "copies of translations of written accounts of word of mouth stories" as pretty well bogus.

Most likely. ;-)

You are a witty one. I'll grant you that. ;)

04/12/2009 10:50:28 PM · #361

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

But yet the moment that little voice says something that affects somebody else (ie. dictates morality), it's game over? It doesn't seem so consistent to me.

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Okay.....for me, if I hear a voice telling me that I'm supposed to do everything I can to convince you that you should see things the way I do as to God, because he/she told me to, I am just not going to buy into it 'cause it just wouldn't make sense.

Why would God suddenly decide to tell ME what he/she wants for you?

Just doesn't compute......and I don't believe it would happen.

04/12/2009 10:52:57 PM · #362

Originally posted by escapetooz:

So I guess my point was, I don't think it crazy when people say what you just have.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

But yet the moment that little voice says something that affects somebody else (ie. dictates morality), it's game over? It doesn't seem so consistent to me.

The voice all of a sudden taking that tack in my life wouldn't be consistent with affecting someone else......it's that simple. It would be greatly suspect.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/12/2009 10:58:38 PM · #363

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
So I guess my point was, I don't think it crazy when people say what you just have.

But yet the moment that little voice says something that affects somebody else (ie. dictates morality), it's game over? It doesn't seem so consistent to me.

Ugh. This taking one thing I said out of context and harassing me with it game is getting really annoying. Is this how you read the bible too? That would explain a lot.

That sentence was meant merely to give acceptance to NikonJeb, as in, "I'm not going to call you crazy for believing this" or in other words "thank you for sharing openly". Not to say that I don't think ANYONE is crazy who says they "talk to God". Plenty of crazy people have killed on "orders from God". But plenty of others have had marvelous revelations "from God".

If someone claims they learned what to do with their lives from God, good for them. That's great. Doesn't necessarily mean I believe them. Now, if they claimed to know some universal truth that applies to me and others, or even something specific about my life, yes I'm going to delve, and prod, and poke RIGHT BACK at them. Because I'm not going to let someone try to order me around based on their private conversations with God.

Why is this a hard concept for you to get?

You've painted me as this wishy washy person and now you are scouring over everything I say to try and prove that point and don't seem to address any of the many valid points I make.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/12/2009 11:00:09 PM · #364

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Why would God suddenly decide to tell ME what he/she wants for you?

Just doesn't compute......and I don't believe it would happen.

I think it depends on your concept of the voice of God. If you are imagining a parting of clouds and the guy in the white beard, or the pillar of fire, sure, not part of how I see the world either. But if you take a more nuanced view, and imaging that the creator is not out in his heaven, but permeates all things, and when you are right with the world, you are right with God, then that little voice that says "I did good today" just might be God seeping in at the edges. Of course you might be schizophrenic, so don't go overboard with it.

Edit. I missed the part about telling me to tell you what to do. I figure if he has a message for you, he can deal with it without roping me into the trunk line.

Message edited by author 2009-04-12 23:05:11.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

04/12/2009 11:03:20 PM · #365

Originally posted by escapetooz:

...you are scouring over everything I say to try and prove that point and don't seem to address any of the many valid points I make.

Dodge and Burn is used for more than just photography.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/12/2009 11:10:14 PM · #366

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Why would God suddenly decide to tell ME what he/she wants for you?

Just doesn't compute......and I don't believe it would happen.

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

That's the thing....other than the one time....which was certainly no cloud parting, I have to read the signs, as it seems, to get what I feel to be the message, and/or guidance for my life.

It's very much a subtle thing, and I feel that's part of it, too....it'd be too easy to follow if there was a list with updates coming in. I think that part of my being tasked to be the best I can is taking the initiative to try and figure out what's the right thing for me to do.

And I'm fairly certain that on no level does that involve me telling you, or anyone else, how to be.

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Edit. I missed the part about telling me to tell you what to do. I figure if he has a message for you, he can deal with it without roping me into the trunk line.

I couldn't agree more!

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/12/2009 11:15:11 PM · #367

Originally posted by escapetooz:

This taking one thing I said out of context and harassing me with it game is getting really annoying.

The other day I pissed someone off because I disagreed with a lens recommendation of his, and I just fail to see how that was personal. One lens worked for me, one for him, and the point of talking in the fora is to exchange ideas and preferences, so the original poster could have the advantage of all opinions.

Granted religion is a bit closer to home than if you think Canon or Tokina offer a better product for the price in a mid level zoom, but any idea posted up here ought to be argued and contested, put there isn't any thing personal in it. People are going after ideas, and while you can hurt a person, you can't hurt an idea.

04/12/2009 11:23:00 PM · #368

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

any idea posted up here ought to be argued and contested, put there isn't any thing personal in it. People are going after ideas, and while you can hurt a person, you can't hurt an idea.

Well said, sir!

You're awful daggone reasonable.....what's up with THAT?????

04/13/2009 12:22:54 AM · #369

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
This taking one thing I said out of context and harassing me with it game is getting really annoying.

The other day I pissed someone off because I disagreed with a lens recommendation of his, and I just fail to see how that was personal. One lens worked for me, one for him, and the point of talking in the fora is to exchange ideas and preferences, so the original poster could have the advantage of all opinions.

Granted religion is a bit closer to home than if you think Canon or Tokina offer a better product for the price in a mid level zoom, but any idea posted up here ought to be argued and contested, put there isn't any thing personal in it. People are going after ideas, and while you can hurt a person, you can't hurt an idea.

No, it's not the disagreement that pisses me off. What pisses me off is taking a small thing I say out of context and misrepresenting my view point and trying to make everything I've said false because of it.

It reminds me of people who think like this: You are pro-choice= You hate babies. or perhaps: You are a feminist= you hate men. It's jumping to false conclusions for the sake of making the person seem unreasonable. And it works.

In other words, it's a straw man. Maybe harassing was a strong choice of words but it certainly is obnoxious and unproductive.

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

04/13/2009 12:46:36 AM · #370

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
So I guess my point was, I don't think it crazy when people say what you just have.

But yet the moment that little voice says something that affects somebody else (ie. dictates morality), it's game over? It doesn't seem so consistent to me.

Ugh. This taking one thing I said out of context and harassing me with it game is getting really annoying. Is this how you read the bible too? That would explain a lot.

That sentence was meant merely to give acceptance to NikonJeb, as in, "I'm not going to call you crazy for believing this" or in other words "thank you for sharing openly". Not to say that I don't think ANYONE is crazy who says they "talk to God". Plenty of crazy people have killed on "orders from God". But plenty of others have had marvelous revelations "from God".

If someone claims they learned what to do with their lives from God, good for them. That's great. Doesn't necessarily mean I believe them. Now, if they claimed to know some universal truth that applies to me and others, or even something specific about my life, yes I'm going to delve, and prod, and poke RIGHT BACK at them. Because I'm not going to let someone try to order me around based on their private conversations with God.

Why is this a hard concept for you to get?

You've painted me as this wishy washy person and now you are scouring over everything I say to try and prove that point and don't seem to address any of the many valid points I make.

OK, this is getting a little out of hand. I'm not on some witch hunt here. I'm participating in a discussion. I'm not taking anything out of context either. How my summarization not restating your sentence here:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

See, I would never nail someone to the wall for what they heard God say or try to make them "prove it" unless they were using it to relate to other people and what they should and shouldn't do with their lives.

I've run across people in my life who carry around what I call a "Pocket God(TM)". It's a nice God that they can pull out of their pocket when they need (dangerous situations, really happy times, times when they want to feel connected with the universe), but it's also a God they can shove back in their pocket the moment they are confronted with any sort of moral dilemma. This way they can dictate their own morality rather than worry about an outside source forcing their view on what is right. It's a God they can control. Really, actually, THEY are the God and the Pocket God is a tool. Like a Djinni.

Message edited by author 2009-04-13 00:48:57.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

04/13/2009 01:08:02 AM · #371

Originally posted by scalvert:

Most religions primarily rely on copies of translations of written accounts of word of mouth stories of humans claiming to know what a being from another dimension said or wants. That's far less evidence than you would likely demand of even the most trivial claim in any arena outside of religious indoctrination, yet many devote their whole lives to it.

I've made this argument before (i.e. the bolded part) but all I've gotten were cricket sounds much like my earlier post about asking the good Doc to elaborate on using logic and reason only to ascertain actual knowledge from outside of that bloody boxcar.

Message edited by author 2009-04-13 01:09:40.

04/13/2009 01:10:04 AM · #372

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
So I guess my point was, I don't think it crazy when people say what you just have.

But yet the moment that little voice says something that affects somebody else (ie. dictates morality), it's game over? It doesn't seem so consistent to me.

Ugh. This taking one thing I said out of context and harassing me with it game is getting really annoying. Is this how you read the bible too? That would explain a lot.

That sentence was meant merely to give acceptance to NikonJeb, as in, "I'm not going to call you crazy for believing this" or in other words "thank you for sharing openly". Not to say that I don't think ANYONE is crazy who says they "talk to God". Plenty of crazy people have killed on "orders from God". But plenty of others have had marvelous revelations "from God".

If someone claims they learned what to do with their lives from God, good for them. That's great. Doesn't necessarily mean I believe them. Now, if they claimed to know some universal truth that applies to me and others, or even something specific about my life, yes I'm going to delve, and prod, and poke RIGHT BACK at them. Because I'm not going to let someone try to order me around based on their private conversations with God.

Why is this a hard concept for you to get?

You've painted me as this wishy washy person and now you are scouring over everything I say to try and prove that point and don't seem to address any of the many valid points I make.

OK, this is getting a little out of hand. I'm not on some witch hunt here. I'm participating in a discussion. I'm not taking anything out of context either. How my summarization not restating your sentence here:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
See, I would never nail someone to the wall for what they heard God say or try to make them "prove it" unless they were using it to relate to other people and what they should and shouldn't do with their lives.

I've run across people in my life who carry around what I call a "Pocket God(TM)". It's a nice God that they can pull out of their pocket when they need (dangerous situations, really happy times, times when they want to feel connected with the universe), but it's also a God they can shove back in their pocket the moment they are confronted with any sort of moral dilemma. This way they can dictate their own morality rather than worry about an outside source forcing their view on what is right. It's a God they can control. Really, actually, THEY are the God and the Pocket God is a tool. Like a Djinni.

How is this "Pocket God" any different from a church's God? Is the church's God not one they can control? It's a game of "who has the right pocket"? To which I say "I don't care what you have in your pocket, just don't tell me what's in mine". And to which it seems many other people say "Well me, naturally"

No, you did not summarize correctly. Just like I don't flit among flowers, nor do I run away from uncomfortable situations. Which it seems we are back to that again. Not believing the same things as you is NOT the same as not being "resolute" in ideas. I'm just resolute on being open-minded and fluid, where you are resolute on... well I'm not sure. The bible, or at least your interpretation of the bible is what it seems like.

This unrelenting attitude that people who have a different view of God than you are just taking the easy way out or using God when he is convenient is just plain wrong.

04/13/2009 01:13:30 AM · #373

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by scalvert:
Most religions primarily rely on copies of translations of written accounts of word of mouth stories of humans claiming to know what a being from another dimension said or wants. That's far less evidence than you would likely demand of even the most trivial claim in any arena outside of religious indoctrination, yet many devote their whole lives to it.

I've made this argument before (i.e. the bolded part) but all I've gotten were cricket sounds much like my earlier post about asking the good Doc to elaborate on using logic and reason only to ascertain actual knowledge from outside of that bloody boxcar.

Well that's because its much easier to respond to my every supposed semantic misstep.

I'm so glad I haven't gotten religiously inDOCtrinated.

I know I'm so punny, you don't have to tell me. ;P

04/13/2009 01:42:17 AM · #374

Originally posted by yanko:

Ya, that was too early in the day and I had family here. I think we can use the String Theory as an example. String Theory postulates that there are more dimensions than we are aware. (10, 11, or 26, I'm not sure and can't keep up.) These dimensions are unaccessible to us, yet we can postulate they exist because String Theory describes our known universe very well (at least when talking about very small portions of it) and requires these extra dimensions. Logical deduction can be made, therefore, that these unseen dimensions may truly exist. Now I grant you this type of "proof" is not as visceral and satisfying as the apple dropping on Newton's head, but it may be the only type we can get. (I'm also not taking this example further than it should. We do not have "proof" of these hidden dimensions yet because String Theory is still a theory in progress.)

The Multiverse would, of course, be another example that we may be able to logic toward, but never have direct access to.

Message edited by author 2009-04-13 01:51:22.