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03/26/2009 01:26:21 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
FORD You what they say:
Buy a Ford
Buy the best
Drive a mile
Walk the rest. |
PLEASE let's stick with relevant, helpful information for this situation.
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03/26/2009 01:34:40 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by MattO:
I would like to clarify something. Just because there is a TSB for a condition does not mean it has to be/or is automatically performed. A TSB is a Technical Service Bulliten issued by a Manufacturer to help aid in the diagnostic purposes when a customer brings a vehicle in for repairs. Note these are only covered under warranty during the original manufacturers warranty. Meaning if the customer had brought the vehicle in for a coolant smell or loss of coolant issue(not a destroyed engine) then under the factory warranty if they were the cause they would have been covered.
Matt |
And I'm sure that is the mantra that the dealer will spout. It doesn't change the fact that the existence of the TSB means Ford and the dealer knew about the issue. Replacing the clamps before resale would have been the right thing to do.
When I had a rust problem on my 6-year-old VW, the dealer looked at it, determined there was a TSB for an internal plastic part that could rub and compromise paint integrity, leading to rust. They fixed both the part and the rust at their cost (they had estimated $675 to repair it). |
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03/26/2009 01:37:44 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by ArpeggioAngel:
Ford had an appraiser come out to look at the damage and see if it was covered under my warranty. Well - the engine is - but what Ford says caused the engine to fail - a clamp and hose that came off the thermostat - is not covered - so they are denying my warranty claim.
The dealership where I bought it is also telling me they can't do anything since the warranty was from Ford, not from them. |
Do not take a "No"answer from Ford yet.....if it IS a Ford clamp & installation, you're not dead in the water yet.
I would ask to have a personal visit with the Ford area service rep, specifically request a denial of a warranty claim in writing should they seem to not want to help.
Then consider legal action.
READ your warranty information CAREFULLY in the factory service, maintenance, and ownwer's manuals.
Above all, do NOT sign off, and/or authorize ANYTHING until you are either satisfied that you understand and will be taken care of, or are convinced that they will not help.
Unfortunately, the first line of defense for a manufacturer is to stonewall, and see if they can make you tuck your tail between your legs and skulk off unhappy, and sustain your own expenses. Often if they see that you won't budge from trying to make them accept responsibility for a genuine issue of liability, they will grudgingly accede to your demands.
You really have to take a firm, but rational stance, and you will learn WAY more about all this before you're done.
It IS an unpleasant and tedious task, but you stand to save literally thousands and thousands of dollars.
I would be more than happy to help walk you through much of this through e-mails and phone calls, and Matt might as well, BUT.....you will have to pick ONE person to do this with you, trust them, work THEIR way, and bear in mind at the end that Ford still may NOT budge.
I have way more experience with this than I ever wanted to and it pisses me off the way dealers and manufacturers abuse their customer base.
This very morninmg, the local Toyota dealer tried to scam my boss here for a $1000 radiator repair that oddly enough, once he asked questions, and dug in his heels, was miraculously covered under a silent warranty, AND.....surprise!
They JUST happened to have a radiator in stock.....for a four year old Toyota with 72K on it?????
Yeah.....
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 13:39:47.
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03/26/2009 01:38:33 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by MattO:
I would like to clarify something. Just because there is a TSB for a condition does not mean it has to be/or is automatically performed. A TSB is a Technical Service Bulliten issued by a Manufacturer to help aid in the diagnostic purposes when a customer brings a vehicle in for repairs. Note these are only covered under warranty during the original manufacturers warranty. Meaning if the customer had brought the vehicle in for a coolant smell or loss of coolant issue(not a destroyed engine) then under the factory warranty if they were the cause they would have been covered.
Matt |
And I'm sure that is the mantra that the dealer will spout. It doesn't change the fact that the existence of the TSB means Ford and the dealer knew about the issue. Replacing the clamps before resale would have been the right thing to do.
When I had a rust problem on my 6-year-old VW, the dealer looked at it, determined there was a TSB for an internal plastic part that could rub and compromise paint integrity, leading to rust. They fixed both the part and the rust at their cost (they had estimated $675 to repair it). |
Then using your method of thinking. The beef the OP would have would be with the original selling dealer(which to my understanding isn't where the vehicle is now, and I'm not sure it was even a Ford dealer.
Matt |
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03/26/2009 02:09:11 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
PLEASE let's stick with relevant, helpful information for this situation. |
OK you want relevance. Here's the truth of the matter. Whoever was driving is at fault for not paying attention to the gaging. Not Ford, not a faulty clamp, not the warranty company. There is no way possible this vehicle could have encountered so much engine damage without some kind of warning to the driver. Cars over heat everyday on the roads in this country and rarely ever experience catastophic damage. I don't care how many ways you slice and dice it, it's the drivers fault. If she wants her vehicle fixed, she should go after her roommate for the money. There's no a warranty on the face of this planet that covers NEGLIGENCE. Low mileage doesn't mean anything in this situation. Who knows how long a clamp is supposed to last? I have a 99 Dodge Durango that I bought new and it wound up with bad ball joints and a tie rod end with just over 30,000 miles on it. Eventually Dodge did a recall for the problem but it only went back to the year 2000 so I got stuck with the bill.
Is it a shit deal? You betcha. But I'm willing to bet you are just gonna be stuck out as far as having any recourse against Ford or the dealership you bought it from. So just fix it and get on with it. A lawyer is only cost you money you say you don't have and guarantee you nothing. Remember you bought a used vehicle with a limited warranty.
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 14:11:02.
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03/26/2009 02:25:23 PM · #31 |
The vehicle was purchased at a Ford dealership and is right now sitting in another Ford dealership approximately 40miles from my house with no way to get to it at the moment.
As for the warranty information - all I have is the basic pamphlet they hand out when buying the vehicle. My owners manual is in the vehicle itself.
It states that the thermostat is covered - but no where does it say that hoses/clamps are not covered. I have tried to find a more detailed version online with no success.
After talking to the service department at the dealership where I bought the vehicle today - they are saying they looked into the TSB and that is was not applicable to my vehicle. Although they could not really tell me how that was determined. From the bulletin my dad sent me, my vehicle meets the dates...just not sure on the plant. It was for vehicles built at the Louisville plant and I have not been able to determine where mine was built.
Today they did advise that they can offer me $1500 towards the repair/labor costs to replace the engine. But even with that - I still cannot afford the repairs.
I am also wary of purchasing a used or rebuilt engine after the problems I had with the used transmission I put in my last vehicle.
I just cannot believe that there was not something else wrong that caused this to happen. Knowing that others have had significant problems with the radiators in these vehicles, knowing about the problems with the clamps and hoses. Also knowing that when my vehicle was in the dealership on the 10th (two weeks before this happened) they had to put fluid in the radiator...although they do not know how much they put in or why it needed filling at that time....
I think the part that just rubs me the most about this is I have only owned the vehicle for four months - only driven for three months as it has been sitting at the dealership for the last 30days.
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03/26/2009 02:28:08 PM · #32 |
If you have an insurance card, you can send me the VIN through PM and I can check on the plant built for your vehicle and also on the warranty that was purchased. All of this information is available online via the FMC website.
Matt |
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03/26/2009 02:39:26 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
PLEASE let's stick with relevant, helpful information for this situation. |
OK you want relevance. Here's the truth of the matter. Whoever was driving is at fault for not paying attention to the gaging. Not Ford, not a faulty clamp, not the warranty company. There is no way possible this vehicle could have encountered so much engine damage without some kind of warning to the driver. Cars over heat everyday on the roads in this country and rarely ever experience catastophic damage. I don't care how many ways you slice and dice it, it's the drivers fault. If she wants her vehicle fixed, she should go after her roommate for the money. There's no a warranty on the face of this planet that covers NEGLIGENCE. Low mileage doesn't mean anything in this situation. Who knows how long a clamp is supposed to last? I have a 99 Dodge Durango that I bought new and it wound up with bad ball joints and a tie rod end with just over 30,000 miles on it. Eventually Dodge did a recall for the problem but it only went back to the year 2000 so I got stuck with the bill.
Is it a shit deal? You betcha. But I'm willing to bet you are just gonna be stuck out as far as having any recourse against Ford or the dealership you bought it from. So just fix it and get on with it. A lawyer is only cost you money you say you don't have and guarantee you nothing. Remember you bought a used vehicle with a limited warranty. |
You know - this is the same kickback I am getting from everyone I talk to at the dealership or Ford. But no matter how you slice and dice it - the truth is exactly how I stated. There was no warning sign...no smoke coming from the vehicle until it was pulled over and the hood was opened, no lights or gauges pegged or lit up on the dashboard. I do not have an explanation for it - but that is how it happened, regardless of everyone saying it isn't possible. Improbable yes, but not impossible. Just because I haven't found out why yet doesn't mean it didn't happen the way it did.
It would be a lot easier for me if I could just blame my roommate for it and be done with it. And I would have no problem with holding him at fault if I believed it was his fault. But knowing what I do about the problems with these vehicles, knowing that my roommate is an upstanding person with no reason to lie to me about what happened...No - I do not believe it was his negligence. At the first sign of trouble - the engine losing power - he immediately pulled over. He didn't try to get it off at the next exit or make it to his destination - he immediately pulled over. At that time there was smoke coming out of the A/C vents and when the hood was popped it was smoking everywhere. They also noticed a huge puddle on the ground under the car so it seems to me that is when the vehicle lost all its coolant.
I never thought to ask about a puddle under the car when it pulled over until now. I just asked about it and am just getting this tidbit of information now. Which leads me to believe that something else caused the engine problems which then caused the hose and clamp to fail...maybe?? |
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03/26/2009 02:44:12 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
There is no way possible this vehicle could have encountered so much engine damage without some kind of warning to the driver. Cars over heat everyday on the roads in this country and rarely ever experience catastophic damage. |
I gotta agree with this. I had a mid 80's ford escort that overheated. I drove it daily for a couple weeks with the temp needle pegged before I could afford to fix it and no known damage was caused.
Note: I was young, dumb and broke. Do not try that on your own car! |
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03/26/2009 02:50:22 PM · #35 |
| Several years ago, I was driving my sister's car. No lights or anything showing a warning until the engine blew. The "Check Engine Light" did come on simultaneously with the "bang" that was the engine blowing. |
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03/26/2009 02:52:50 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by MattO:
Then using your method of thinking. The beef the OP would have would be with the original selling dealer(which to my understanding isn't where the vehicle is now, and I'm not sure it was even a Ford dealer.
Matt |
No... if I were in this situation, I would maintain that the reselling dealer should have been aware of outstanding TSBs that may impact vehicle reliability. Certainly if *I* were that dealer, my policy would be to assess possible issues before I took a vehicle on trade, and if I elected to take the trade, assess the need to address the TSBs prior to resale. The reselling dealer had no contractual obligation to do so, of course, but if the vehicle has a failure of a part where a TSB exists, and that causes collateral damage, the reselling dealer needs to take some responsibility for that.
I'm operating under several assumptions, some of which may not in fact be correct:
- The TSB actually covered this vehicle
- The implication of the TSB was that clamp failure was a possibility
- There was no negligence on the part of the driver
There is uncertainty on all three of these points, particularly the last. There are always, in any situation I can imagine, symptoms that are nearly impossible to ignore when a catastrophic coolant release occurs. |
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03/26/2009 03:00:25 PM · #37 |
Do you have your VIN number?
Just one site that may help determine where your vehicle was manufactured. There are others and the one I was looking for I cannot find right now. But this one may help. |
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03/26/2009 03:00:36 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by MattO:
Not only should the Guage be pegged, the Wrench light and Service Engine soon light should have been on. With multiple DTC's set. The 06 I believe also uses a CHT(cylinder head temp sensor) which is not reliant on Coolant actually hitting it to know if the engine is overheating. All of this information would have been logged into the Vehicles PCM and saved in the Freeze Frame data to be retrievable for the technician to read.
Matt |
Originally posted by ArpeggioAngel:
You know - this is the same kickback I am getting from everyone I talk to at the dealership or Ford.
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I'm not disputing the integrity of you friend. Matt's point above is valid. Especially the part about the information being logged into the vehicles PCM. Maybe this why you keep getting the answers you do from Ford and others. Cars today have monitoring devices for everything. Hell they have monitoring devices to monitor the monitoring devices. So to say that this vehicles engine experienced catastrophic failure without warning is virtually impossible and improbable.
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03/26/2009 03:03:50 PM · #39 |
can't help you with the issue - though i personally wouldn't loan another car to your 'friend'...
if he's having trouble with his jeep - why doesn't he have it fixed ?
but - i had a ford escort 1996 - it's still on the road - i gave it to a relative.
i had many issues with the cooling system ( most came down to a repeated burning relay on the cooling fan ). i on multiple occasions pegged the heat gauge - pulled over - let it cool, and continued on. not only was the engine HOT - the car kept going. and still goes. no warped head, no bad head gasket ( i had it compression checked ), no cracked pistons. i'm telling you that i abused the vehicle knowingly - and ran into nothing like what you have in front of you.
one time i brought it in because of over heat issues - the shop had on scrapped in the back of the lot. same year same model different color. the driver had seized the engine. how ? pretty much by not paying attention. my guess would be at 65mph he drove the thing with heat gauge pegged for around 60 miles. that's a guess. but what you are talking about isn't some sort of spur of the moment engine explodes type of thing.
it's possible the head gasket was bad all along - and you burned up the coolant, loand the car to your friend ( because his jeep is busted ). and left him with a widow maker. but if that's the case you'd have smelled the burning coolant and /or had smoke coming out of the hood.
anyhow - you can likely have a scrap yard engine installed for around $1400\
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 15:07:25.
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03/26/2009 03:06:12 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
No... if I were in this situation, I would maintain that the reselling dealer should have been aware of outstanding TSBs that may impact vehicle reliability. |
I think this is gonne be her strongest arguing point right here. But like I mentioned before if it's not one of Fords COPs(certified pre-owned cars) then I wouldn't think they would be under under any obligation to check for TSBs. You'd think they would but who knows in todays automobile market.
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03/26/2009 03:13:24 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by soup:
i had a ford escort 1996 - it's still on the road - i gave it to a relative.
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Me too. Mine was a 91. Best car I ever owned. Put a fuel pump in the tank once. Tires on the front twice. Drove the hell out it. Still on the road today. Friend of mine neighbor has it.
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03/26/2009 03:13:58 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by ArpeggioAngel:
You know - this is the same kickback I am getting from everyone I talk to at the dealership or Ford. But no matter how you slice and dice it - the truth is exactly how I stated. There was no warning sign...no smoke coming from the vehicle until it was pulled over and the hood was opened, no lights or gauges pegged or lit up on the dashboard. I do not have an explanation for it - but that is how it happened, regardless of everyone saying it isn't possible. Improbable yes, but not impossible. Just because I haven't found out why yet doesn't mean it didn't happen the way it did.
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Not trying to be a hard-ass or anything, but if your roommate was driving the car I assume you were not in it? So how do you know this is how it happened? Because your roommate told you? Not saying he would or did, but do you think he would tell you that he drove for X miles with the dashboard telling him there was a problem if that problem led to the meltdown of the engine that he would then be responsible for due to his negligence in reacting appropriately?
EDIT: was typing while the above posts asked the same question...
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 15:17:26. |
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03/26/2009 03:14:47 PM · #43 |
yeah - they can take abuse - if the driver pays attention !!
that same car i drove for about 10 days with no transmission fluid - not a lot of miles maybe 20/day. it's got around 170K miles on it now. original tranny... ( i didn't have much money at the time ).
i have 2003 ford focus now :)
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Me too. Mine was a 91. Best car I ever owned. Put a fuel pump in the tank once. Tires on the front twice. Drove the hell out it. Still on the road today. Friend of mine neighbor has it. |
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 15:16:54.
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03/26/2009 03:26:56 PM · #44 |
I have sent Matt my VIN to see if my vehicle was/should have been included in the TSB.
In the meantime - I have also revisited with my roommate the exact details of what happened... I thought I had all the info, but I was so upset when it first happened and was talking to him about it that I missed some key points.
He was driving on cruise control when this happened. The vehicle started stuttering. He looked at the dash and saw the speedometer dropping - but the only lights on the dash were from the passenger not wearing a seatbelt and the cruise control light. No other gauges or lights.
When they pulled over and popped the hood - smoke poured out. At that time, they noticed that the engine was covered with fluid. They saw that the radiator was empty - but the radiator reservoir was full. They tried pouring water in the radiator and it went straight through and onto the ground.
With this additional info - anyone have any ideas? |
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03/26/2009 03:31:51 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by CEJ:
Originally posted by ArpeggioAngel:
You know - this is the same kickback I am getting from everyone I talk to at the dealership or Ford. But no matter how you slice and dice it - the truth is exactly how I stated. There was no warning sign...no smoke coming from the vehicle until it was pulled over and the hood was opened, no lights or gauges pegged or lit up on the dashboard. I do not have an explanation for it - but that is how it happened, regardless of everyone saying it isn't possible. Improbable yes, but not impossible. Just because I haven't found out why yet doesn't mean it didn't happen the way it did.
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Not trying to be a hard-ass or anything, but if your roommate was driving the car I assume you were not in it? So how do you know this is how it happened? Because your roommate told you? Not saying he would or did, but do you think he would tell you that he drove for X miles with the dashboard telling him there was a problem if that problem led to the meltdown of the engine that he would then be responsible for due to his negligence in reacting appropriately?
EDIT: was typing while the above posts asked the same question... |
You are correct - I was not in the vehicle. It was one roommate driving the other one to work. I do trust him implicitly. Due to all the problems I have had with past vehicles and my concern in taking care of my vehicles - they would not lie to me about this. I have known them for over 10yrs - they are two of my best friends in the world. If they at all felt it was their fault, they would own up to it. I know everyone wants to blame the one driving that he neglected to pay attention to "something", but it is just not the case.
The reason he did not drive his own vehicle - the Jeep - is due to some serious mechanical issues it is having. The reason he has not fixed his is because he is unemployed. He was laid off twice last year and has been unsuccessful in finding a new job yet with this crappy economy the way it is. |
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03/26/2009 03:40:43 PM · #46 |
Your VIN indicates there are no TSB's issued for hose clamps for your vehicle. There is an SSM(special service message) regarding a possible leak and overheat condition from the Radiator. I would have to say the overheated engine likely blew the hose off. If the initial leak can be determined to be a failed Radiator, I can't tell if that is covered on your warranty or not. Which is a 6 month 6000 mile Powertrain only and may or may not. I would need an actual repair number and the state you live in to tell this. Since I don't have that I cannot run it. However as I have stated in the past, if the vehicle has sustained such a meltdown of the head gaskets, heads being warped, and a broken or melted piston, then the vehicle was severely overheating and for some time too. The 4.0 SOHC isn't bullet proof but its also not known to have head gasket failures, and certainly not piston failure.
Without the information pulled from the PCM I cannot tell you for sure what did or did not occur at the time the engine was damaged. However if the technician and shop has pulled that information and recorded it on the repair order as they should have. I would say you are at this point going to lose your battle. As they may have definitive information regarding the operating conditions of the engine at the time of failure.
Matt |
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03/26/2009 03:41:30 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Several years ago, I was driving my sister's car. No lights or anything showing a warning until the engine blew. The "Check Engine Light" did come on simultaneously with the "bang" that was the engine blowing. |
Did the car have actual gages or the idiots lights? Actual gages give immediate indications of trouble if they work properly. Lots of times idiots lights don't come on until it's too late. Same for "check engine light" unless it's linked to something dumb like a gas cap that isn't put on right.
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03/26/2009 03:45:44 PM · #48 |
See - I wonder if my gauges/lights all work correctly.
Something the dealership mentioned when I told them that the seat belt light was on was that the "dinging" noise from it should have been driving them crazy...but mine does not "ding". It did when I first bought the vehicle, and then stopped about two weeks afterwards. We did not tamper with anything that would have caused it to stop. |
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03/26/2009 03:51:29 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by ArpeggioAngel:
See - I wonder if my gauges/lights all work correctly.
Something the dealership mentioned when I told them that the seat belt light was on was that the "dinging" noise from it should have been driving them crazy...but mine does not "ding". It did when I first bought the vehicle, and then stopped about two weeks afterwards. We did not tamper with anything that would have caused it to stop. |
Alot of these signals can be programmed to be on or off. Programming them usually involves putting the key in the ignition and turning it on and off a required amount of times. This can also be done by accident. I've done it before. I turned the "dinging" off in my truck by mistake but realized I liked it and left it off.
Message edited by author 2009-03-26 15:56:21.
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03/26/2009 04:28:48 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:
Cars today have monitoring devices for everything. Hell they have monitoring devices to monitor the monitoring devices. So to say that this vehicles engine experienced catastrophic failure without warning is virtually impossible and improbable. |
The operative word being "Virtually".
I worked on cars for too many years to EVER say anything finite.
My interest here is trying to help, not list the myriad ways that this could have happened, and it be the driver's fault.
I have enough experience under the hood, in the computer, both on-board and diagnostic, to know better than to speak in absolutes.
The evolution of the electronics in cars is frightening right now, and the people who are supposed to be keeping up with it are not.....couple that with the end user who often do NOT want to pay to have something repaired peoperly, and a line tech that has too much time buried in a repair, who knows what kind of history the self-diagnostics on this vehicle have.
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