Don't let this happen to you! - DPChallenge Forums

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

03/04/2009 08:14:02 AM · #1

This is for all newbies on the site. I had a photo in the Action challenge that was going for top 10 when it was dq'd. (avg 6.757 after 201 votes)

I knew I had to keep the original, and I figured there was no problem--I had Elements set to automatically save with a new name. E.g., original is flight, when I save it automatically does a Save As to flight-edited1, etc. It always does a Save As, never touches the original.

WRONG!!

Do NOT do a Save As in any program! I have had people tell me that they haven't had problems with Elements, but it doesn't matter. Don't take chances. I played around with the program for about 3.5 hours the night I received the message that my original had been touched by photoshop elements. The bottom line is, I was able to duplicate the problem, and it did, in fact, mess with my original.

Here is a link to double check original file transfer.

Here's the shot that was dq'd.

Hopefully the administration will add this link to the rules page. In the last 20 challenges, 1/3 of the dq's have been for this problem. (some of them were obviously joke pictures that never meant to send in the original, but even without them, the percentage is significantly higher than any other dq reason.)

I'm rambling--but the point is-- read and beware!

Yo_Spiff

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

03/04/2009 08:56:28 AM · #2

A good warning. I helped another member recently when her entry was DQ'd for no original file and she could not figure out why her original was not acceptable. When she sent me her original file, the Exif showed it had been handled by the program used to transfer it from the camera. A good idea is to use a card reader to transfer files. If you use software it may add itself into the Exif.

I don't do the automatic saving of original, even though my software supports it. I have a subfolder underneath the one where the Raw images go, and the Tif or Jpg conversion go there with a manual save. Another folder under that for the actual edits.

I also have enough CF cards that they are usually on the card for a few weeks if I need to get one from there again.

Looking at your post again, I don't think it was the "save as" function that was the problem, but rather the automatic saving of the original. I could be wrong, as I don't use Elements, but with PSP, I don't think I have ever had the original overwritten unless it was my own goof.

Message edited by author 2009-03-04 08:59:02.

smichener

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED

03/04/2009 09:07:10 AM · #3

I had a similar experience with this image

which was dq'd in the Long exposure IV challenge which required images taken in jpeg only. I found out that when photoshop handled it to resize it, the original in camera image was changed forever. There was no going back.

This was a surprise to me because I usually only shoot RAW and photoshop automatically saves the original RAW file, regardless of the changes you make to it in photoshop.

As others have suggested the best way to avoid this is to always copy the original, and make edits to the copy only. Of course this eats up more space though.

TrollMan

Fujifilm X-T4

Fujifilm XF 35mm f/1.4

03/04/2009 09:17:36 AM · #4

Did you try to restore it from your CF card Wendy? I guess you already know that you usually can restore files as long as they haven't been over written after erase. If the image you need was image number 125 on your card and you used the card to record another 100 images after ersasing it; chances are that you can restore it.

Ken

Canon EOS-7D

03/04/2009 10:00:19 AM · #5

For things like this I think it's good to develop a workflow that works for you. I transfer from CF to my C: drive, open RAW from C: and then save psd file to F: in my DPC directory. I do all my editing on that psd. I usually keep pictures on CF for a few weeks and erase when I need the space. This way I have an original on both the CF and my C: should validation request ever come up.

Besides validation, another reason to keep originals is to potentially re-edit in the future as your skills increase.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

03/04/2009 10:05:46 AM · #6

Unfortunately, I only have two cards, and I'd filled them multiple times since the shot. (it's amazing how many shots I'm taking the past couple of weeks! I think I took around 15 skin shots and about 250 white on light shots. argh!

At the moment, I'm using the card reader to copy the files directly onto my i drive. I'm then using photoshop elements organizer to bring the files in once again from the card onto my c: drive and working off that. Duplicating everything is driving me crazy, but at the moment I have the file space. At some point in time, I need to clean off the 149 skins shots that I didn't use from both drives (unless there's 1 or 2 worth saving!)

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

03/04/2009 10:30:32 AM · #7

Transfer software corruption is a fairly common newbie mistake.

There are two ways to make sure it doesn't happen.....shoot in RAW.

Or, if you shoot jpeg.....do NOT click on the little popup box when it comes up, instead go to my computer, and save the image files directly to a folder, THEN copy them all tpo another folder and work on the copies.

Just as an aside......don't get into the habit of saving images on your card.

After you get really used to this silliness, you'll find that you cannot afford the luxury of trying to do it that way.

I shot 505 images last night at a concert in 2Â½ hours and darn near filled a 4GB card.

Message edited by author 2009-03-04 10:30:50.

03/04/2009 10:36:20 AM · #8

My biggest problem with the dq was that it seemed unnecessary. A short statement or simple link where the editing rules were listed could have saved my best shot (by far) from being dq'd. I really had no idea that a Save As could corrupt the original. So I'm hoping that the admin will simply add the link to the rules to save someone else the disappointment.

03/04/2009 10:53:16 AM · #9

Originally posted by vawendy:

You may be right that a warning is in order, but I don't think "save as" is the culprit: "when I save it automatically does a Save As to flight-edited1, etc."

You are "saving" in the sense that you are hitting the "save" button, and then from that point Elements is generating a new file name for the version you're saving. This is NOT the same as a "save as", where the source image isn't saved at all.

This is what it sounds like to me from your description. I could be wrong...

R.

03/04/2009 10:58:04 AM · #10

When my husband and I were testing it, I tried it with the save version set on, and it changed it. But I also tried removing that and strictly doing a Save As. the interesting thing was this: if I had only done things that didn't create a layer, it did not change the original. But, when I created a new adjustment layer and did a Save As, it created a new photoshop file, but it also tagged on photoshop metadata to the original jpg file. We were able to duplicate this. So there are times that Photoshop Elements does change the original even if you are doing a Save As.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

03/04/2009 11:03:03 AM · #11

It sucks. It's also a good reminder to get a workflow established that you follow without thinking.

Mine goes like this

- insert card
- rename CARD:\DCIM\XXXXXX folder to CARD:\DCIM\DATE_SUBJECT
- copy card folder (not cut!) to c:\digital.photos\raws
- make damn sure the data made it intact by importing into Lightroom and viewing the photos
- copy c:\digital.photos\raws\DATE_SUBJECT to each of two external drives

At that point I have three copies of the photos. For DPC purposes all are unedited originals, so I would have to be clicking around in a drunken stupor to wipe out all of them.

Only at that point do I edit any of them and clear the contents of the memory card.

03/04/2009 11:08:32 AM · #12

Originally posted by vawendy:

Wow... Makes me wonder if CS3 does the same thing? I wouldn't know because I only ever shoot RAW...

R.

brownsm

Canon EOS-5D

Fisher Price Kid-Tough Digital

03/04/2009 11:21:02 AM · #13

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by vawendy:
When my husband and I were testing it, I tried it with the save version set on, and it changed it. But I also tried removing that and strictly doing a Save As. the interesting thing was this: if I had only done things that didn't create a layer, it did not change the original. But, when I created a new adjustment layer and did a Save As, it created a new photoshop file, but it also tagged on photoshop metadata to the original jpg file. We were able to duplicate this. So there are times that Photoshop Elements does change the original even if you are doing a Save As.

Wow... Makes me wonder if CS3 does the same thing? I wouldn't know because I only ever shoot RAW...

R.

have never seen this with CS3 working with jpegs. strange.

Bugzeye

03/04/2009 11:35:44 AM · #14

I usually keep shots I know I am entering in a challenge on the memory card. Once I know it is my entry I will lock it inside the camera so it can not be deleted from the card without reformatting.

pedrobop

Canon PowerShot SX100 IS

Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM

03/04/2009 11:45:53 AM · #15

You meen that even if i save the original at my computer, edit it and "save as" in another folder, with another name....the original will not be acceptable?

citymars

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

03/04/2009 12:19:14 PM · #16

I find this confusing as well. If I understand correctly, the safest thing to do is to transfer your photos manually using a card reader -- don't have the software that comes with your camera do the transfer. Then only edit a copy of the original file.

Ken

Canon EOS-7D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

03/04/2009 12:57:01 PM · #17

Originally posted by citymars:

YMMV. I use the Canon Utility to transfer and it appears to not modify the originals. But if unsure, you give good advice.

rmezzo

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

03/04/2009 01:07:25 PM · #18

I used Lightroom to import straight from my card.
In the import photo dialogue box under 'File handling" I choose "Copy photos to a new location and add to catalogue"
Is this a problem? How would I go about checking if this changes the original?

Edit: I always shoot RAW BTW

Message edited by author 2009-03-04 13:08:31.

Pentax DA 18-135mm F3.5-5.6ED AL [IF] WR DC

03/04/2009 01:21:47 PM · #19

Originally posted by pedrobop:

You meen that even if i save the original at my computer, edit it and "save as" in another folder, with another name....the original will not be acceptable?

Pedro, it *seems* that PS Elements is sometimes messing with original JPGs even when "save as" is used. It's aknown fact that some transfrer software adds data to the EXIF.

The safest way to work is to use a card reader to manually drag files from the card to a desktop folder, and THEN to copy the files in that folder to a new subfolder. You might name the first "JPG Originals" and the second "JPG working files". Then you never, ever open the files in the "originals" folder; they are there solely for archiving purposes, if you need to resurrect one for some reason you'd copy it to another folder without opening it.

This workflow is for JPG, not RAW: with RAW, the software never saves or alters anything, it creates a copy in a readable format instead. So in my RAW workflow I have the originals folder and the subfolder is "edits"; they are saved as PSD files.

R.

tnun

Ricoh GR III

03/04/2009 01:49:38 PM · #20

Enough to drive one mad! I always use the card reader; in the beginning I was advised by friends NEVER to use any software for downloading. As well I usually almost always process in Irfanview (I know it is limiting), but opening a file does not alter it so far as I know; and it is a real pain to make a copy if I want to pp in the Gimp or any other program.

It is not so much the nuisance, but the possible, probable and inevitable confusion.

AJSullivan

03/04/2009 02:03:11 PM · #21

I would assume this is only an issue in the small world that is DPC?

03/04/2009 02:05:59 PM · #22

Actually, I was wondering the same thing... anyplace other than DPC need the original?