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01/01/2004 02:25:50 PM · #26 |
It seems there are very strong feelings both ways. ~Duh.
I dont understand why in just the member challenges we vary it up. Do one or two with, and one or two without.
It really bothers me when things get personal. I come to this site to relax and enjoy myself. Not to argue. |
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01/01/2004 02:27:30 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Why? I'm sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me. Why not produce a high quality shot? Guess I'm just confused as to why some people have such an adversion to why DPC shouldn't allow high quality images... |
The bottom line is I think DPC should be about actual camera use, rather than editing. There are plenty of sites for image editing, and none (that I know of) like DPC encouraging me to use my camera properly.
I'd love to think I'm swaying D+L's or the site council's opinion or the introduction of new rules, but I don't think I am, so I'll leave it at this. |
Personally, I think DPC should be about photography. Call me crazy, but a "Digital Photography Contest" seems to imply that it is about photography. You are being narrow minded in thinking that editing isn't part of photography. Note that no one here has been narrow minded on the other extreme - no one has said that using your equipment correctly isn't part of photography. The pro-edit people seem to be the all-inclusive group. They are more than happy to accept people who want to use their images straight out of the camera. The non-edit people are being very exclusive - trying to exclude everyone who wants to learn all about "photography," not just using a camera.
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01/01/2004 02:31:00 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Let's not be so narrow minded about what 'photography' is or isn't. |
It's amazing to me that anytime there's this arguement someone that wants unlimited editing proceeds to use this line. Then they go on and absolutely refuse to be openminded about it....
(edited to fix quote)
Message edited by author 2004-01-01 14:31:55. |
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01/01/2004 02:32:45 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Let's not be so narrow minded about what 'photography' is or isn't. |
It's amazing to me that anytime there's this arguement someone that wants unlimited editing proceeds to use this line. Then they go on and absolutely refuse to be openminded about it....
(edited to fix quote) |
People who want unlimited editing are the only ones who are being open-minded. We accept everyone. You guys are the ones wanting to exclude stuff.
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01/01/2004 02:38:04 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by StevePax:
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Why? I'm sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me. Why not produce a high quality shot? Guess I'm just confused as to why some people have such an adversion to why DPC shouldn't allow high quality images... |
The bottom line is I think DPC should be about actual camera use, rather than editing. There are plenty of sites for image editing, and none (that I know of) like DPC encouraging me to use my camera properly.
I'd love to think I'm swaying D+L's or the site council's opinion or the introduction of new rules, but I don't think I am, so I'll leave it at this. |
Personally, I think DPC should be about photography. Call me crazy, but a "Digital Photography Contest" seems to imply that it is about photography. You are being narrow minded in thinking that editing isn't part of photography. Note that no one here has been narrow minded on the other extreme - no one has said that using your equipment correctly isn't part of photography. The pro-edit people seem to be the all-inclusive group. They are more than happy to accept people who want to use their images straight out of the camera. The non-edit people are being very exclusive - trying to exclude everyone who wants to learn all about "photography," not just using a camera. |
I have never said that there should be no open editing challenges, in fact I quite welcome the occasional editing challenges. I just donĂ¢€™t think that every challenge should be open editing. I have been a member of this site for a long time and feel that the emphasis has always been on improving your skill with a camera not PhotoShop. |
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01/01/2004 02:38:30 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Let's not be so narrow minded about what 'photography' is or isn't. |
It's amazing to me that anytime there's this arguement someone that wants unlimited editing proceeds to use this line. Then they go on and absolutely refuse to be openminded about it....
(edited to fix quote) |
I spent over a year here using the challenges to learn how to light, compose and 'properly' use my camera. I have won ribbons and have learned a lot. But, as I grow in my photography, I am no longer happy submitting images that in my opinion aren't my best work. Yes there are other contest sites, and I can go there, but why should I? I enjoy the competition here and try to use the challenge ideas to expand upon what I shoot. How is me wanting to keep the December ruleset not being open minded? If you can produce a perfect shot from your cam that doesn't need any editing, then submit it, but if you see some flaw that can be adjusted in editing that would create a better composition why put a limit on what we can change? In the end, both shots are voted on the same and if I do a crap job of editing, then it won't score as high as your out of the cam shot that used no editing. I'm not saying EVERYONE needs to edit ALL their shots... now that would be narrow minded.
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01/01/2004 02:50:08 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by StevePax:
Originally posted by TooCool:
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Let's not be so narrow minded about what 'photography' is or isn't. |
It's amazing to me that anytime there's this arguement someone that wants unlimited editing proceeds to use this line. Then they go on and absolutely refuse to be openminded about it....
(edited to fix quote) |
People who want unlimited editing are the only ones who are being open-minded. We accept everyone. You guys are the ones wanting to exclude stuff. |
So you agree that there should be both editing and no editing challenges? |
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01/01/2004 02:51:06 PM · #33 |
I agree with this! Why not make a better print from an already good photo. I think it will do this site good to expand.
You go, Danny!
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Why? I'm sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me. Why not produce a high quality shot? Guess I'm just confused as to why some people have such an adversion to why DPC shouldn't allow high quality images...
The member challenges did not go down hill last month, I actally saw some of the best work of the year... and I don't think I'd say any were DIGIART or overly processed. They were 'finished' images.
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
No one's disputing pics can be better with editing. That doesn't mean it's right for DPC. |
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01/01/2004 02:53:22 PM · #34 |
| I'm not adding anything that hasn't been said before, but simply supporting it. Maybe I'm entirely missing something here, but it seems to me that everybody wants to become better at photography here, right? And while that does mean (for many of us, at least) getting a better eye and more skilled with the camera, that's not where it ends. In my opinion, the movement from a snapshooter and a photographer definitely includes learning how to edit. It's like people are using the December Rules as an excuse rather than an opportunity. Here's your chance to learn Photoshop, improve your editing skills (although ideally, you'd be improving your photography skills first and foremost.. because there are so many things you can't fix in the digital darkroom) and improve upon your photographs. I am open to the idea that half the challenges (either open or member.. although I of course favor all of the challenges being open editing) be open editing and half be the old way.. but I'm not sure I quite understand the view that some people have on this. |
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01/01/2004 02:58:44 PM · #35 |
| maybe the answer to this constant debate is to run 2 simultaneous challenges on same topic, one allowing post processing and one that does not, now that could be interesting. Of course you would have to use the same shot for both. |
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01/01/2004 03:01:18 PM · #36 |
One final thought:
There are plenty of photography sites on the net with editing.
There is ONE without. Allow editing on DPC, and it will be gone.
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01/01/2004 03:04:33 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
I spent over a year here using the challenges to learn how to light, compose and 'properly' use my camera. I have won ribbons and have learned a lot. But |
God I love that word 'but'! It means that whatever is to follow is gonna be the opposite of what I just said so disregard it! What you just said apparently doesn't apply to newer people that haven't been here for a year eh? What about the people that want to learn like you did? WITHOUT the worry about whether or not their shot is absolutely perfect?
Originally posted by crabappl3:
as I grow in my photography, I am no longer happy submitting images that in my opinion aren't my best work. |
Who said you have to enter the shot then? You see being open minded CAN work both ways...
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Yes there are other contest sites, and I can go there, but why should I? I enjoy the competition here and try to use the challenge ideas to expand upon what I shoot. |
And try to change the rules every chance you get...
Originally posted by crabappl3:
How is me wanting to keep the December ruleset not being open minded? If you can produce a perfect shot from your cam that doesn't need any editing, |
I've never said that I COULD produce a PERFECT shot out of my camera... According to the pro editing side nobody can! And that's one thing that for sure I will agree with you on!
Originally posted by crabappl3:
then submit it, but if you see some flaw that can be adjusted in editing that would create a better composition |
But why should you have to EDIT the composition? Composition is how you frame the shot. You can't do that WITHOUT photoshop?
Originally posted by crabappl3:
why put a limit on what we can change? In the end, both shots are voted on the same and if I do a crap job of editing, then it won't score as high as your out of the cam shot that used no editing. I'm not saying EVERYONE needs to edit ALL their shots... |
No what you appear to be saying is that you don't wanna play by the same rules that brought you to this site. Rules that help to give everyone a reletivly even field to play on!
Originally posted by crabappl3:
now that would be narrow minded. |
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01/01/2004 03:05:13 PM · #38 |
How many of those sites have the same format of topic/voting?
We evolve, DPC evolves. No harm done.
-danny
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
One final thought:
There are plenty of photography sites on the net with editing.
There is ONE without. Allow editing on DPC, and it will be gone. |
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01/01/2004 03:12:26 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
How many of those sites have the same format of topic/voting?
We evolve, DPC evolves. No harm done.
-danny
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
One final thought:
There are plenty of photography sites on the net with editing.
There is ONE without. Allow editing on DPC, and it will be gone. |
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You have no way of knowing if the new rules go in effect full time if there is harm done or not. I dont either, my point is no one knows. |
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01/01/2004 03:13:26 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Originally posted by crabappl3:
I spent over a year here using the challenges to learn how to light, compose and 'properly' use my camera. I have won ribbons and have learned a lot. But |
God I love that word 'but'! It means that whatever is to follow is gonna be the opposite of what I just said so disregard it! What you just said apparently doesn't apply to newer people that haven't been here for a year eh? What about the people that want to learn like you did? WITHOUT the worry about whether or not their shot is absolutely perfect?
...
Originally posted by crabappl3:
why put a limit on what we can change? In the end, both shots are voted on the same and if I do a crap job of editing, then it won't score as high as your out of the cam shot that used no editing. I'm not saying EVERYONE needs to edit ALL their shots... |
No what you appear to be saying is that you don't wanna play by the same rules that brought you to this site. Rules that help to give everyone a reletivly even field to play on! |
Couldn't possible agree more, TC.
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01/01/2004 03:15:58 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
God I love that word 'but'! It means that whatever is to follow is gonna be the opposite of what I just said so disregard it! What you just said apparently doesn't apply to newer people that haven't been here for a year eh? What about the people that want to learn like you did? WITHOUT the worry about whether or not their shot is absolutely perfect? |
I took my lumps early on. I have my low scores too. I learned from them and started to score higher and that included learning Photoshop. I have only been using it for a year and I feel that I have been able to take my 'negative' and make more pleasing images as a result.
Originally posted by TooCool:
Who said you have to enter the shot then? You see being open minded CAN work both ways... |
And I don't always enter every challenge. I do enter a lot though :-)
Originally posted by TooCool:
And try to change the rules every chance you get... |
Erm, just defending the December rule set... that I didn't come up with.
Originally posted by TooCool:
I've never said that I COULD produce a PERFECT shot out of my camera... According to the pro editing side nobody can! And that's one thing that for sure I will agree with you on! |
Actually I wouldn't. I have several entries that have just been resized and sharpened that I feel were perfect from the camera.
Originally posted by TooCool:
But why should you have to EDIT the composition? Composition is how you frame the shot. You can't do that WITHOUT photoshop? |
I can't ask that mother and her daughter to move that glass while they are having a tender moment. I knew there was a great shot there, but was not able to move the object or them, or me to get rid of that glass. So I edited the glass out to improve the composition.
Originally posted by TooCool:
No what you appear to be saying is that you don't wanna play by the same rules that brought you to this site. Rules that help to give everyone a reletivly even field to play on! |
Google brought me to this site. I had no other knowledge of contest sites before this one as I had my camera for only 2 weeks prior to joining.
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01/01/2004 03:18:18 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by StevePax:
People who want unlimited editing are the only ones who are being open-minded. We accept everyone. You guys are the ones wanting to exclude stuff. |
People who want unlimited editing are the only ones who are accusing anyone who thinks differently to be narrow-minded. That doesn't strike me as being especially open-minded. Open editing and open minded are not the same thing. |
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01/01/2004 03:22:14 PM · #43 |
I can see that. Thanks for the eye opener MK.
If the December rules stay in force, I don't feel that one has to always do massive edits to win a challenge or to be competitive. How many ribbons has JJ won with the old rule set? Either way the rules go, I'll still be here and playing the game... I just know that with the December rules, I felt the energy to submit again that I had lost through the past few months of mammoth challenges of images that weren't what they could have been.
-danny
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by StevePax:
People who want unlimited editing are the only ones who are being open-minded. We accept everyone. You guys are the ones wanting to exclude stuff. |
People who want unlimited editing are the only ones who are accusing anyone who thinks differently to be narrow-minded. That doesn't strike me as being especially open-minded. Open editing and open minded are not the same thing. |
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01/01/2004 03:30:39 PM · #44 |
It won't be gone, it will improve the pictures that are submitted on the challenges and also help folks make better prints.
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
One final thought:
There are plenty of photography sites on the net with editing.
There is ONE without. Allow editing on DPC, and it will be gone. |
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01/01/2004 03:43:20 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Sonifo:
It won't be gone, it will improve the pictures that are submitted on the challenges and also help folks make better prints.
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I see DPC with the old rules as being fantastic encouragement to improve one's camera skills. I believe allowing editing will down-play the importance of camera skills in producing top quality images.
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01/01/2004 03:48:17 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
Originally posted by Sonifo:
It won't be gone, it will improve the pictures that are submitted on the challenges and also help folks make better prints.
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I see DPC with the old rules as being fantastic encouragement to improve one's camera skills. I believe allowing editing will down-play the importance of camera skills in producing top quality images. |
I think the camera skills will remain important. Composition, artistic imagination, lighting, a good eye, exposure, etc, will all remain vital parts of producing a photo. Also, there's nothing more satisfying than getting a perfect shot out of the camera :) Nobody wants to spend countless hours in photoshop polishing turds :)
I think what the rules will do if they become implemented, is even up the competition for people with lower-end cameras, as they can use editing to improve noise, etc. Neatimage chan be used now, yes, but not to a specific area of a photo, which is often needed.
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01/01/2004 03:59:03 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Konador:
I see DPC with the old rules as being fantastic encouragement to improve one's camera skills. I believe allowing editing will down-play the importance of camera skills in producing top quality images.
I think the camera skills will remain important. Composition, artistic imagination, lighting, a good eye, exposure, etc, will all remain vital parts of producing a photo. Also, there's nothing more satisfying than getting a perfect shot out of the camera :) Nobody wants to spend countless hours in photoshop polishing turds :)
I think what the rules will do if they become implemented, is even up the competition for people with lower-end cameras, as they can use editing to improve noise, etc. Neatimage chan be used now, yes, but not to a specific area of a photo, which is often needed. |
Your involvement and experience on DPC is certainly greater than mine, Ben. If you believe camera skills will remain important I'm happy to take your word for it.
As Danny said, whether the rules change or not, I'll still be here playing the game.
EDIT: Fixed quote.
Message edited by author 2004-01-01 15:59:29.
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01/01/2004 04:00:12 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by PaulMdx:
One final thought:
There are plenty of photography sites on the net with editing.
There is ONE without. Allow editing on DPC, and it will be gone. |
Read the rules - editing is allowed.
Because something is allowed it does not make it obligatory, if you want to keep DPC pure and virginal don't edit and vote down all images which don't meet your ideals. Personally I would much rather look at what the photographer wanted me to see, not the whole negative in a raw state.
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01/01/2004 04:16:27 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
I spent over a year here using the challenges to learn how to light, compose and 'properly' use my camera. I have won ribbons and have learned a lot. |
How nice then that you wish to deny others this same learning curve to satisfy yourself. Narrow mindedness or open mindedness???
Your words re-arranged like others do to me :) But still in context. Sorry but thats how I see what you said. |
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01/01/2004 04:27:31 PM · #50 |
If you really want to learn how to use your camera, dont be fooled into thinking any rules here will make you become better. The original rule set allowed you to completely make digital art out of any image.
The original rule set does not in any way, really teach you how to get a better image out of your camera. Those rules allowed people to oversharpen, make weird hue changes, lighten/darken their exposures, add colors that arent in the original photo, take colors out of a part of an image, etc. Those rules really didnt help anyone.
Does the old rule set keep a level playing feild? No, how could it. If you dont know how to properly expose a scene for a photo, the guy that can, is already ahead of you. You say know how to use your camera pretty well, but dont have any ideas on how to set up or capture a compelling scene that will make people go wow. The old rule set cant help you then either.
By allowing the new rule set, you will be given an oppurtunity to learn, how to do everything you will ever want to know about good digital photography. The people here unlike any other site, ive been a part of, go out of their way to teach anyone how to do any technique, that they are interested in.
Me persoanlly, I feel like taking advantage of the amount of photo knowledge here, and becoming a better photographer. I want to learn all the tools I can, I want to be better because Im passionate about shooting pictures...it is a part of me, and I will never stop trying to learn as much as I can.
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