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 12/31/2003 09:33:06 AM · #1
Okay, let me first say that I am NOT kvetching. I am honestly stumped here.

Surfer was my On the Edge shot. I was thrilled to see it had a score of 6.3 on the second day of voting and thought I might actually have a decent shot at a top 10 finish. Immediately after that, however, the score plummetted, bottoming out at around a 5.3 before slowing inching its way back up to the 5.7 it finished with.

All of the comments were super positive (and as always, I appreciate ALL comments on my photos...thanks to those who took the time).

I really want to know what happened. What did folks NOT like about the shot? This was really my first attempt at action photography ever (since the AF on the F717 was too slow for this type of photography). I can't improve if I don't know what I did wrong.

Thanks in advance for any and all comments, suggestions, and discussion.

Shari
 12/31/2003 09:36:30 AM · #2
Its a great action shot, and I can't see much wrong with it at all. You must remember that a lot of people who vote on DPC are very literally minded. I think the only problem was that a specific clear edge was not defined in the photo. Sure, he is balanced on the edge of a piece of fiberglass that is balanced on the edge of a wave, as you said in your description, but a visible edge or boundary isnt obvious in the actual photo.
 12/31/2003 10:18:59 AM · #3
I feel your pain. I've had similar experiences in past challenges. There is a point in every challenge where I say - "x number of good comments, 1 lukewarm one, why am I only scoring 4.x?" (or 5.x on a FEW) I'm just passing it off to people not wanting to say something "negative." On the other hand, when you look randomly at some people's profiles, and their average score given is 3.x or 4.x, it's obvious there's no way they could have left comments on all the 1-3 scores they left.

As for "Surfer" I think it's a nice capture of the action. The only drawback I saw was it's overall kinda dark. You have a WHITE white in there already, and you want to keep that, and the wetsuit is obviously black. If you could have lightened the dark blue water a little, that would give the surfer more definition, it seems. (caveat - I have a PC clone, so a Mac user might not agree - I understand they display lighter.)

By using Levels and moving the middle arrow to ~1.5, it comes out like this:

It might be me, but I like that a bit better. That said, you did not, IMHO, deserve all those 1-3 scores on the original.
 12/31/2003 10:25:25 AM · #4
Shari, for the record, I gave you a 7. I thought that overall, the shot was a good one, and that it met the challenge well, although, like Ben, I agree that the voters took the challenge literally, and this was not a literal shot. I too see grain in the water, which detracts some from the shot, but I didn’t rate it higher because I think focus could have been better and I found the colors to be a little on the dull side. IMO, the colors are a little on the dull side and don’t add any pizzazz.

My shot for the challenge was similar in content and finished a little below yours. I was dissapointed, but attribute it to the way the challenge was interpreted by the voters. I couldn't believe just how many shots were depictions of physical edges. Not my idea of what we should have been photographing for this challenge.

What shutter speed did you use for the picture?

12/31/2003 10:39:32 AM · #5
Originally posted by Olyuzi:

What shutter speed did you use for the picture?


This page shows the full EXIF for the photo.
 12/31/2003 11:16:12 AM · #6
I'm very surprised about the outcome of this picture: this and the second placed (at the moment of this writing:)) were my only 10s.

Konador is probably right regarding why it's voted so low. However, to me this symbolizes the term edge much more then some other, higher rated images, especially because there is some flow = transition element included too.

I disagree that a brighter image looks better: I especially liked the high contrast with the dark sea. Makes it more dramatic and more 3-dimensional to me.
When I voted and commented on the picture I didn't recognize the grain, so to me it was not an issue, but of course it's there.

So I'm still very surprised about the outcome!
 12/31/2003 11:27:14 AM · #7
For me, the main problem with the shot is that your subject appears out of focus and you can not see much detail in him. He almost gets lost in his own image, if you know what I mean. His outfit is all black and there is no detail evident in his upper body. His left arm merges too much with his left leg. There is also alot of black in the water, and at the same time, you've lost detail in the wave on the left. Possible that your contrast is too high.

Maybe F14 was too small of an aperature to use and shutter speed of 1/1000th sec too slow. The shot is caught somewhere in between freezing the action and showing movement with blur, but doesn't make a definitive statement either way. Were you using panning technique? If so, that's very hard to do from so far away when using a focal length of 233, unless you were using an IS lens. If you look at my shot for the challenge, it's not very crisp focus wise either. I have to work on this. Plus, I don't know what kind of conditions you were shooting under, but if it was very windy, like it was for mine, then it's even harder to get a well focused shot as it was very hard for me to remain very steady when taking the shot. I have IS on my cam but it didnt' seem to help.
 12/31/2003 12:50:48 PM · #8
Needed a tiny bit of sharpness. The shot work for me. It is more suited to a nice glossy cover of a magazine then a computer screen. I gave you a "9" on the shot.
 12/31/2003 01:09:16 PM · #9
Something I've noticed since coming here. The "no camera" crowd are either trolls to cheat, or they judge you on their personal preferences and not our actual photo talent. Now I cant speak to all of them as I know some have a very good eye and deserve respect, but my guess would be the majority are the first stated.

Just a perception.
 12/31/2003 01:12:51 PM · #10
No camera,no submited to challenges,no vote,IMHO those are all fake users!
 12/31/2003 01:18:26 PM · #11
I gave it an 8 myself. As suggested before, it probably suffered from the "literalists" who didn't really read the description of the challenge too well.

My shot suffered a similar fate because there isn't a huge cliff or anything in the shot to scream "EDGE" at people. The challenge description mentioned the idea of "transitions," and mine was the transition into winter, which officially takes place on the calendar on 12/21 (I believe).
 12/31/2003 01:23:14 PM · #12
I personally gave you a six on this one. Not because of theme though. I saw the connection, the guys right on the leading edge of white water...

I did score down on darkness (or too lightness) of water (to contrasty for color IMHO) and the lack of detail in the wet suit. It's just a black blob. It IS a nice capture.
 12/31/2003 01:24:41 PM · #13
Subject is NOT out of focus. You're looking at 640x480 images, how can you tell if the surfer is out of focus when he is only 1/4 of the frame? The only way to tell is to have the full image. The edge of the board is on the same plane as the surfer and that's pretty sharp already and much more interesting than any of the top 10 finishes.


Originally posted by Olyuzi:
For me, the main problem with the shot is that your subject appears out of focus and you can not see much detail in him. He almost gets lost in his own image, if you know what I mean. His outfit is all black and there is no detail evident in his upper body. His left arm merges too much with his left leg. There is also alot of black in the water, and at the same time, you've lost detail in the wave on the left. Possible that your contrast is too high.

Maybe F14 was too small of an aperature to use and shutter speed of 1/1000th sec too slow. The shot is caught somewhere in between freezing the action and showing movement with blur, but doesn't make a definitive statement either way. Were you using panning technique? If so, that's very hard to do from so far away when using a focal length of 233, unless you were using an IS lens. If you look at my shot for the challenge, it's not very crisp focus wise either. I have to work on this. Plus, I don't know what kind of conditions you were shooting under, but if it was very windy, like it was for mine, then it's even harder to get a well focused shot as it was very hard for me to remain very steady when taking the shot. I have IS on my cam but it didnt' seem to help.
 12/31/2003 01:30:32 PM · #14
Originally posted by pitsaman:
No camera,no submited to challenges,no vote,IMHO those are all fake users!


Then what about people like ___________ (I'm not gonna mention his name but I'm sure if you've seen my forum posts you can figure it out) who has this record [Votes Cast: 4293 Avg Vote Cast: 3.5178]? Are we gonna ban him from voting also? Then the next guy for voting 3.6 average?

In a society in which voting and commenting is not only allowed but encouraged, you should NOT do anything to discourage either... Besides if you look at the curve of her votes recieved it is EXACTLY what you would expect too see. More perfect curve than most of the winners...
 12/31/2003 01:32:17 PM · #15
Originally posted by paganini:
Subject is NOT out of focus. You're looking at 640x480 images, how can you tell if the surfer is out of focus when he is only 1/4 of the frame? The only way to tell is to have the full image. The edge of the board is on the same plane as the surfer and that's pretty sharp already and much more interesting than any of the top 10 finishes.



I second that!
 12/31/2003 01:34:46 PM · #16
Originally posted by shareinnc:
Surfer was my On the Edge shot. I was thrilled to see it had a score of 6.3 on the second day of voting and thought I might actually have a decent shot at a top 10 finish. Immediately after that, however, the score plummetted, bottoming out at around a 5.3 before slowing inching its way back up to the 5.7 it finished with.


I've had shots follow exactly the same path that you are refering to here. I've also seen the exact opposite happen. Start WAY low and end up much higher by morning. The first night of voting has NO STATISTICAL MEANING and should NOT be taken seriously! It is fun to watch, but that's about it...
 12/31/2003 01:37:32 PM · #17
I liked your shot a lot & was expecting it to be higher up. I agree with Konador on some things but I think folks voted things that were literally on the edge as opposed to the edges & boundaries in the world & in life.

It's wierd. On some challenges literal translations of the challenge (i.e. Irony = a shot of an iron & the letter Y) are voted down & then on others, like this past one, they are voted high. I personally think this is a cop out for the less creative but that's me.

Sometimes I think the flow of voters can be kinda whack! I also think that there are those that vote down, for whatever reason, shots they think will do well.

Either way, winning or not winning, you took a great shot!
 12/31/2003 01:42:16 PM · #18
Originally posted by Rooster:
Either way, winning or not winning, you took a great shot!


And IMHO that is more important than anything...
 12/31/2003 01:45:40 PM · #19
Originally posted by Rooster:
Either way, winning or not winning, you took a great shot!


Thanks :D
 12/31/2003 05:05:34 PM · #20
Okay, let me first say that I am NOT kvetching. I am honestly stumped here.

Why do you complain about the pattern the voting took during the week? It is a pretty normal one by my experience.

Why didn't you put the aperture, ISO and shutter speed on your entry? I was wondering what settings you used when I first looked at it to criticize it, as you seemed to want us to do. Would have helped.

Why do you say in your Photographer's Comments that "The surfer is balanced on the edge of a piece of fiberglass" when it is pretty that both of his feet are on the centerline of his board?

I don't find it out-of-focus, but I do find it a bit grainy and/or oversharpened. 1600 is toward the high side even on a good camera like your digireb.

I gave it a middle of the pack type of vote. No glaring flaws but no wow either. Pictures of surfers are commonplace, almost cliche; and one has to be really outstanding to get attention. I've shot a few hundred, most comparable to your entry, a few better and many worse, but I don't think any of them are great. I enjoy shooting them so will probably do more.

It's a good picture but not a great one. I think 5.7 is about right for it.
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