?s about Xtianity but were afraid to ask

01/22/2009 04:33:40 PM · #301

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Yes, actually if you can live a perfect life I think you will gain entry to heaven.

Doesn't that contradict what you stated earlier about salvation and faith?

Mmmm, only if anybody can live a perfect life... ;) I'm not trying to be smart. It is an option mentioned by Paul, but he quickly concludes nobody can gain entry that way because nobody is perfect.

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Message edited by author 2009-01-22 16:38:43.

01/22/2009 04:50:17 PM · #302

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Logically the Christian could find out they are correct or incorrect based on whether there is an existence after death.

Either way, you're brain-dead (as a deceased person, not you personally), so that assumption mandates some other medium besides your noggin for storing and processing information. What would that be? If all you know and feel is stored and processed "spiritually," then a brain wouldn't be necessary for those functions. Consider carefully: if it were technically possible to transplant a brain from one genetic twin to another without damage, would all the memories and emotions go with it? "Knowing" anything after death requires the answer to be NO.

Dualism in philosophy of the mind

01/22/2009 04:59:35 PM · #303

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Logically the Christian could find out they are correct or incorrect based on whether there is an existence after death.

Either way, you're brain-dead (as a deceased person, not you personally), so that assumption mandates some other medium besides your noggin for storing and processing information. What would that be? If all you know and feel is stored and processed "spiritually," then a brain wouldn't be necessary for those functions. Consider carefully: if it were technically possible to transplant a brain from one genetic twin to another without damage, would all the memories and emotions go with it? "Knowing" anything after death requires the answer to be NO.

Dualism in philosophy of the mind

Are you seriously suggesting that a transplanted brain would NOT be a transplanted mind, that memories, knowledge and psychological patterns would not move with the gray matter, or are you just dodging the question?

01/22/2009 05:04:11 PM · #304

Originally posted by scalvert:

I don't know what would happen. I obviously believe we have some sort of existence apart from our body (brain in specific). Would that existence follow your brain? Would it stay with your body? I have no idea. I doubt we will ever know because I highly doubt a brain transplant will ever be medically possible.

RonB

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

01/22/2009 05:33:33 PM · #305

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Flash:
Another conclusion might ask if the Dali Lama (just as an example) was ever exposed to the "Good News" or "gospel of Christ" and if so did he accept or reject it. If he was exposed and rejected it, then from a christian perspective, it is not inconcievable that he would in fact be denied access to heaven - regardless of how peaceful or "good" he was.

If he wasn't exposed to it, he (and indeed most of the world's population) would fail Achoo's definition of Christian... and more importantly the basic requirement for salvation (faith that Jesus = God). In other words, most of the planet would be doomed to hell for the crime of mere ignorance. You are suggesting, of course, a "get out of hell free" card for those who didn't have the 'privilege' of exposure, but that principle creates an interesting conundrum: someone who chooses, say, a Catholic interpretation over Baptist may be less worthy of salvation than a Buddhist who knew nothing of either. :-/

Well, if you take the book of Revelation literally, there are only 144,000 people going to heaven; 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

So its probably been filled up for a long long time.

If you were to actually look PAST the verses in Revelation which speak of the 12 tribes, you would find that there are many, many more than 144,000:

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

01/22/2009 05:46:53 PM · #306

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:
Are you seriously suggesting that a transplanted brain would NOT be a transplanted mind, that memories, knowledge and psychological patterns would not move with the gray matter, or are you just dodging the question?

I don't know what would happen. I obviously believe we have some sort of existence apart from our body (brain in specific). Would that existence follow your brain? Would it stay with your body? I have no idea.

Fair enough. While I personally think it's ludicrous to suggest a person could retain and process any knowledge or memories without a brain, I'm sure there are still people who believe the heart [organ] is literally the source of emotion, too.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I highly doubt a brain transplant will ever be medically possible.

Ethical considerations notwithstanding, the technology itself is practically within reachâ��

"In 1998, Fred H. Gage of the Salk Institute in La Jolla, California, showed that new, functioning neurons are indeed capable of being grown in the human hippocampus. Historically, this was thought to be preposterous. ...stem cells have been shown by the Wistar Institute of the University of Pennsylvania to repair the severed spinal cords of mice to a functional level... Should the technology to repair the damage to the spinal cord be developed, the possibilities of what a head transplant could accomplish would become endless."

scarbrd

Leica M10

01/22/2009 05:54:05 PM · #307

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Flash:
Another conclusion might ask if the Dali Lama (just as an example) was ever exposed to the "Good News" or "gospel of Christ" and if so did he accept or reject it. If he was exposed and rejected it, then from a christian perspective, it is not inconcievable that he would in fact be denied access to heaven - regardless of how peaceful or "good" he was.

If he wasn't exposed to it, he (and indeed most of the world's population) would fail Achoo's definition of Christian... and more importantly the basic requirement for salvation (faith that Jesus = God). In other words, most of the planet would be doomed to hell for the crime of mere ignorance. You are suggesting, of course, a "get out of hell free" card for those who didn't have the 'privilege' of exposure, but that principle creates an interesting conundrum: someone who chooses, say, a Catholic interpretation over Baptist may be less worthy of salvation than a Buddhist who knew nothing of either. :-/

Well, if you take the book of Revelation literally, there are only 144,000 people going to heaven; 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

So its probably been filled up for a long long time.

If you were to actually look PAST the verses in Revelation which speak of the 12 tribes, you would find that there are many, many more than 144,000:

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

I've read that too. However, there are religions, Jehovah`s Witness for one, that believe that there is a hard cap on the number allowed into heaven based on that scripture.

david1707

Nikon D90

Tamron AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di II for Nikon

01/23/2009 03:47:07 AM · #308

Another thing I fail to believe; One person lives an exeptionally good life. Kind and gental, loving, helping others. The other is a mass murderer, cruel, inhuman, violent. Now, the good person is not a Christian so when this person dies he burns in hell. The muderer, at the last minute on death row accepts Jesus as his savior. He dies and goes to heaven. I fail to believe a loving god would allow such a thing.

The discussion about the brain... These are my thoughts. Our brain is bases on electrical impulses, thus it has a form of energy. Science has proven that energy never goes away, it just changes forms. Thus in my belief it is possible for the energy of the brain to "live" on after death. It just changes into another form. What that form will be, again, we won't find out until death.

Flash

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

01/23/2009 07:45:16 AM · #309

Originally posted by david1707:

This reads to me as though you are particularly attached to the concept of "works" or how one lives, as a means into God's grace or love or heaven entry. For those who accept that "works" or how one lives is not the determining factor, then your scenario above is not a problem.

Grace or forgiveness or salvation is a "gift" - if only one accepts it. The accepting is the difficult part. That is the part that requires choice (free will). You are perfectly able to reject that gift on any grounds you choose - including your "logical" conclusion that "God" won't do what is written he will do. You and many others choose not to believe those writings. Fair enough. That is not only your right, but your informed decision as well. You may be correct. I choose to believe it a bit differently.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

01/23/2009 08:41:31 AM · #310

Originally posted by Flash:

Grace or forgiveness or salvation is a "gift" - if only one accepts it. The accepting is the difficult part. That is the part that requires choice (free will). You are perfectly able to reject that gift on any grounds you choose - including your "logical" conclusion that "God" won't do what is written he will do. You and many others choose not to believe those writings. Fair enough. That is not only your right, but your informed decision as well. You may be correct. I choose to believe it a bit differently.

The problem with this premise is that it condems hordes of people to eternal damnation simply because they did not have the good fortune of hearing and abiding by "what is written".

What about the millions of individuals such as those who came before Jesus, and people like native americans who inhabited this land prior to the advent of white christians... would you have us believe that your God would not save them?

Ray

Apple iPhone 5

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

01/23/2009 08:43:53 AM · #311

Originally posted by david1707:

The discussion about the brain... These are my thoughts. Our brain is bases on electrical impulses, thus it has a form of energy. Science has proven that energy never goes away, it just changes forms. Thus in my belief it is possible for the energy of the brain to "live" on after death. It just changes into another form. What that form will be, again, we won't find out until death.

Dissipated heat energy.

If I step on an ant, his brain stops functioning. Any energy in his body is dissipated. As far as I know, ants don't get into heaven. Why should the energy from human brains be treated any differently?

01/23/2009 08:49:02 AM · #312

Originally posted by RayEthier:

The problem with this premise is that it condems hordes of people to eternal damnation simply because they did not have the good fortune of hearing and abiding by "what is written".

Flash has suggested earlier that if you don't know, you get in anyway... which in turn suggests that Paul, et al should have kept it to themselves. ;-)

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

01/23/2009 09:10:25 AM · #313

Originally posted by david1707:

Our brain is bases on electrical impulses, thus it has a form of energy. Science has proven that energy never goes away, it just changes forms. Thus in my belief it is possible for the energy of the brain to "live" on after death. It just changes into another form.

Sounds like you're mysticizing electricity, as if the energy in your computer would live on and keep processing MP3 tracks after you chuck it out a window. It's a notion that allows hucksters to sell ideas like "The Secret" to hopeful millions. The energy in your body is biochemical in nature, generated by oxidizing sugars, and dissipated as heat and kinetic energy. When you kick the bucket, that energy ceases just as surely as a battery at the end of its life. A battery, forest fire or lightning bolt does not live on as a magical spirit when the energy is exhausted. The energy dissipates and that's it.

Moreover, you're ascribing storage and processing abilities to the energy itself. Our brains communicate via electrical impulses, but thought and memories require physical storage and computational structures (essentially an organic computer). Your brain is the processor and hard drive, and electrical impulses enable their function, not the other way around.

Message edited by author 2009-01-23 12:26:51.

scarbrd

Leica M10

01/23/2009 09:34:11 AM · #314

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by david1707:
Our brain is bases on electrical impulses, thus it has a form of energy. Science has proven that energy never goes away, it just changes forms. Thus in my belief it is possible for the energy of the brain to "live" on after death. It just changes into another form.

Sounds like you're mysticizing electricity, as if the energy in your computer would live on and keep processing MP3 tracks after you chuck out a window. It's a notion that allows hucksters to sell ideas like "The Secret" to hopeful millions. The energy in your body is biochemical in nature, generated by oxidizing sugars, and dissipated as heat and kinetic energy. When you kick the bucket, that energy ceases just as surely as a battery at the end of its life. A battery, forest fire or or lightning bolt does not live on as a magical spirit when the energy is exhausted. The energy dissipates and that's it.

Moreover, you're ascribing storage and processing abilities to the energy itself. Our brains communicate via electrical impulses, but thought and memories require physical storage and computational structures (essentially an organic computer). Your brain is the processor and hard drive, and electrical impulses enable their function, not the other way around.

For the record, I see many people everyday that seem to get through life just fine without a functioning brain. ;-)

Tamron AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di II for Nikon

01/23/2009 09:36:12 AM · #315

TouchÃ© (I wasn't going to go there). ;-)

david1707

Nikon D90

01/23/2009 09:37:48 AM · #316

Originally posted by Flash:

including your "logical" conclusion that "God" won't do what is written he will do. You and many others choose not to believe those writings.

That's another problem I have. The Bible, as well as the Koran, Book or Morman, and other Holy books were writen by man, then translated again and again by man.

RonB

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

01/23/2009 10:29:44 AM · #317

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Flash:
Grace or forgiveness or salvation is a "gift" - if only one accepts it. The accepting is the difficult part. That is the part that requires choice (free will). You are perfectly able to reject that gift on any grounds you choose - including your "logical" conclusion that "God" won't do what is written he will do. You and many others choose not to believe those writings. Fair enough. That is not only your right, but your informed decision as well. You may be correct. I choose to believe it a bit differently.

The problem with this premise is that it condems hordes of people to eternal damnation simply because they did not have the good fortune of hearing and abiding by "what is written".

What about the millions of individuals such as those who came before Jesus, and people like native americans who inhabited this land prior to the advent of white christians... would you have us believe that your God would not save them?

Ray

This question is raised a lot. Perhaps this article can help to answer the question of "how can those who never heard about Christ be saved?".

Flash

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

01/23/2009 10:52:52 AM · #318

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
The problem with this premise is that it condems hordes of people to eternal damnation simply because they did not have the good fortune of hearing and abiding by "what is written".

Flash has suggested earlier that if you don't know, you get in anyway... which in turn suggests that Paul, et al should have kept it to themselves. ;-)

Actually what I referenced was that "some" teach that the period between Christ's death and resurection was spent in hell offering salvation to all who died prior to his death including JUDAS. That gives an answer to Ray's question on what about the multitudes that died before Christ's arrival and death. I do not claim to know first hand that this is in fact the truth, only that it is an explanaition provided by some christian teachers. What I particularly like about it, is the real potential for Judas to have betrayed Christ AND received salvation. To me, if I was the one who fulfilled that prophecy, it would be pretty cool to have a chance at redemption. I suspect Judas was first in line to "sign up".

Further I presented that some teachers present the timing of the 1st coming with the Roman road system and its ability to allow for the quick spreading of the "Gospel" along with the prediction that the second coming would occur at a time when mass media would be available. I have no idea if these postulates are true - only that I have heard them presented.

Lastly, if the Jews/Israelites were the only chosen people prior to their rejection of the messiah, then the concept of multitudes being denied access to "heaven" regardless of their choices or unfortunate birth timing, is not a problem for me.

typos

Message edited by author 2009-01-23 10:56:08.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

01/23/2009 11:40:58 AM · #319

Originally posted by RonB:

Perhaps this article can help to answer the question of "how can those who never heard about Christ be saved?".

According to the article, the only way to heaven is through Jesus, per his own declaration, and the good guys who lived before Jesus were "retroactively" pardoned by God, knowing that Jesus was coming (though no mention of the 'regular' folks who lived around the same time and had no gospel to follow). Further, the requirement for salvation is specific acknowledgment that Jesus died for them (sort of like Capt. Sullenberger tossing anyone back into the Hudson who didn't personally thank him) and works are not enough, yet it is through their works that non-Christians and those who lived before Jesus demonstrate their faith in God (not Jesus or his sacrifice). Now that's some quality tap dancing!

Apple iPhone 5

01/23/2009 11:49:53 AM · #320

Originally posted by scalvert:

Further, the requirement for salvation is specific acknowledgment that Jesus died for them (sort of like Capt. Sullenberger tossing anyone back into the Hudson who didn't personally thank him) and works are not enough, yet it is through their works that non-Christians and those who lived before Jesus demonstrate their faith in God (not Jesus or his sacrifice). Now that's some quality tap dancing!

Did god change the terms and conditions after he sent us Jesus? Makes no sense to me. Up until Jesus, god was happy enough to liaise directly with the Jews. Presumably letting them into heaven because they had faith in him.

Then he sends Jesus. New contract. If you don't believe that Jesus 'died for your sins' (whatever that means) then no heaven for you. And what about the Jews? God kind of shafted them post-Jesus, didn't he?

01/23/2009 12:22:44 PM · #321

Originally posted by Flash:

"some" teach that the period between Christ's death and resurection was spent in hell offering salvation to all who died prior to his death including JUDAS. I suspect Judas was first in line to "sign up".

Ya really think anyone would say, "No thanks, it's kinda nice here"...? At that point, there would be no ambiguity and you'd have 100% faith. Rather than use fallible human authors and contradictory texts subject to wide interpretation at a time when most of the world is both illiterate and beyond reach, why not make it THAT obvious to begin with and save Jesus a trip? Simultaneous visions of burning bushes, angels or a voice from the clouds would have everyone's undivided attention. Apparently, with great power comes lousy marketing ability. ;-)

Was Jesus "timed" to coincide with the Roman ability to spread influence or was it the coup of an early Jim Jones or David Kouresh movement convincing a Roman emperor who could mandate widespread belief long enough for children to be raised knowing nothing else? The obvious strength of the empire would legitimize his god over those of subjected communities just as native tribes are conquered and quickly converted to Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. Imagine if an FLDS follower convinced the influential dictator of a huge empire that polygamy etc. was God's true will, and that emperor subsequently legitimized plural marriages and clamped down on alternatives for a generation. Barring any "proof" to the contrary, many of the children of that generation would continue to spread that belief and pass it along to their children, perhaps with new interpretations or embellishments recommended by "experts" on the subject. A few generations later, you've got a major world religion.

01/23/2009 12:24:38 PM · #322

Originally posted by JH:

what about the Jews? God kind of shafted them post-Jesus, didn't he?

Ironic that Jesus was a Jew, eh?

01/23/2009 12:40:10 PM · #323

Originally posted by scalvert:

Ya really think anyone would say, "No thanks, it's kinda nice here"...?

CS Lewis writes a really interesting book called The Great Divorce. I mentioned it way up above somewhere. You can see the text on Google Books here (edit: it's only a sample of the text). It's completely fantastical but the gist is a man wakes to find himself in an endless, dreary town. He wanders a while until he find a bus which he takes with other passengers to another realm. Unbeknownst to him, the town was hell. Further unbeknownst (isn't that a great word) the town, though it seems endless, is really the size of an atom. The bus, instead of going anywhere, actually just gets bigger until they are dropped at the edges of heaven. The passengers now appear as ghosts because they are insubstantial to the reality of heaven. As they explore around most decide to go back to hell because they can't handle the process of acclimatising to heaven. The grass pokes like needles, the water hurts like thrown stones, etc.

Anyway, like I said, it's totally imaginary, but the takehome was interesting that it seemed interesting to think that hell had no gates and people were free to leave, they just didn't want to.

Message edited by author 2009-01-23 12:51:35.

01/23/2009 12:58:13 PM · #324

Unbeknownst is a fabulous word. I was kinda hoping for something a little more knownst in this thread though. I'll bow out of the conversation because it looks like I'm taking it in a direction I know Achoo wanted to avoid (as if that's possible). That said, my questions were genuine and the answers (the few offered anyway) seemed like, "Well, um... maybe it's [insert complicated, contradictory and/or equally problematic hypothesis here] rather than an actual answer. Somehow I expected more from a position that routinely claims the answers are all there if only you look. At every turn, it's more like the answers are all there, but only if you already believe the answers are all there AND accept that they're not only plausible answers, but absolutely true.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

it seemed interesting to think that hell had no gates and people were free to leave, they just didn't want to.

I find it more interesting to think that this life and this world IS heaven, warts and all... that hell is merely a glass-is-half-empty view of the same world, and eternity is counted in birthday candles. Live accordingly. ;-)

Message edited by author 2009-01-23 13:02:29.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II