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12/10/2008 06:18:50 PM · #226 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I make a logical leap to say it is our innate sense of Self-Preservation that gives us this feeling. It's not a large leap and it's a logical one. So why should it not be included as a building block of morality? "Keeping oneself alive is good." Who would disagree with that in all but the oddest of situations? |
Originally posted by scalvert:
EVERY animal (perhaps even plants) exhibit a survival instinct. They actively try to improve their circumstances and avoid pain and death, so unless you're attempting to attribute morals to an amoeba or elm tree, I don't think you want to go there. |
Hmm, I guess you do. Woo.. amoebas exhibit morality! |
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12/10/2008 06:20:11 PM · #227 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Why does a fun philosophical debate like this have to take place at the busiest time of the year for a musician like me? The conversation's bound to simmer down by the time my schedule lightens up :( Could it be that God is just punishing me for not believing in him/her? :-\ Well, at least I'm making good money off of all of the churches/orchestras hiring me to play The Messiah and other Christmas pops music (and it's amazing how many atheists I know who play in these church gigs).
Happy debating season you care-free ranters. |
Rock on you crazy diamond! |
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12/10/2008 06:20:36 PM · #228 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
I already explained earlier why self-preservation isn't a basic form of morality, and you should know exactly what decency and honestly look like in animals since that would include humans. |
He didn't say it's a "basic form of morality", He said it's a basic building block of morality. Big difference.
I donno about "decency" in animals, but to have "honesty" you gotta have promises that are kept, and they have to be communicated, basically. I'm not sure we can prove that happens in animals...
R.
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12/10/2008 06:21:51 PM · #229 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
I already explained earlier why self-preservation isn't a basic form of morality, and you should know exactly what decency and honestly look like in animals since that would include humans.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Apparently the results are based on the fact that 90% of the time the monkey's did the deal when it was fair and that was reduced to 80% when it wasn't? Are you kidding me? |
"they only cooperated 80% of the time and as the trials continued, they were more and more likely to refuse." |
but it was still 80% overall. maybe they were more likely to refuse as time went on in the 90% portion too. They didn't mention it. Just an example of why I wish I could see the original article.
So can I conclude from your remark that no animals outside humans show "decency" and "honesty"? Can I get some intellectually honest help from the audience here? Shannon asserts that basic blocks of morality can be shown to exist in higher primates and other mammals (dogs were given). He asserted that "honesty" and "decency" are "basic building blocks". Can I logically conclude, AT THE LEAST, that we do not see all the basic blocks in animals other than man? Man, in other words, exhibits basic blocks of morality (as listed by Shannon) that are not exhibited anywhere else? Is this a logical conclusion?
And can I get some other opinions on whether Self-preservation (ie. Remaining alive is Good) could be considered a basic block of morality along with "fairness" or others? Recall I'm not saying this is morality. If Amoebas show self-preservation it does not mean, in my view, that Amoebas are moral, just that they show the basic block of Self-Preservation. Apparently it's a block that evolve very early in the life's rise.
Message edited by author 2008-12-10 18:28:54. |
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12/10/2008 06:30:59 PM · #230 |
| The great thing is we aren't even talking about my real arguement. We're spending pages just hashing out the groundwork. This can be frustrating with Rant, but I'm willing to stick it out here for a while because Shannon likes to use his animals argument and I want to put an end to it. ;) |
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12/10/2008 06:32:48 PM · #231 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
He didn't say it's a "basic form of morality", He said it's a basic building block of morality. Big difference. |
He's saying self-preservation is a reason for claiming something is moral. I disagree. Self-preservation is pretty much independent of morality. ANY form of life will do whatever it can to survive regardless of whether the action is moral or not. For example, it could be justification for stealing, lying or killing another human even by the very same person who considers those things deeply immoral. Those morals are based on OTHER values (compassion, empathy, fairness, etc.). |
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12/10/2008 06:35:09 PM · #232 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
He didn't say it's a "basic form of morality", He said it's a basic building block of morality. Big difference. |
He's saying self-preservation is a reason for claiming something is moral. I disagree. Self-preservation is pretty much independent of morality. ANY form of life will do whatever it can to survive regardless of whether the action is moral or not. For example, it could be justification for stealing, lying or killing another human even by the very same person who considers those things deeply immoral. Those morals are based on OTHER values (compassion, empathy, fairness, etc.). |
No, no. I'm merely trying to equate self-preservation as a building block on the same level as "fairness". I'm trying to add to your list of basic building blocks. |
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12/10/2008 06:43:32 PM · #233 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Because something is culturally wrong/right doesn't also make it morally wrong/right.
In some cultures beating your wife is culturally right, does that make it a moral act? |
Shannon is pointing out that an innate sense of right and wrong has evolved evolutionarily. He points to animals exhibiting these "proto-moral behaviors" (my words). I brought up "self-preservation" as a possible example of one of these building blocks. Shannon said that wasn't right because nobody "claims a situation is immoral because they want to live". I pointed out that, in fact, lots of cultures claim a situation is immoral because people want to die". I'm just placing Self-Preservation correctly in the tool box of "basic building blocks" or "proto-moral behaviors". |
I disagree.
Self preservation is an instinct, not a moral behavior. It's the reason roaches scurry away when the light comes on. Surely, you wouldn't argue that cockroaches have a sense of morality. Someone wanting to die may be acting contrary to their instinct which society expects them to follow, but how are the expectations of society the gauge of morality? Society may expect behaviors that are moral, but it may also expect behaviors that are immoral. |
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12/10/2008 06:49:26 PM · #234 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Because something is culturally wrong/right doesn't also make it morally wrong/right.
In some cultures beating your wife is culturally right, does that make it a moral act? |
Shannon is pointing out that an innate sense of right and wrong has evolved evolutionarily. He points to animals exhibiting these "proto-moral behaviors" (my words). I brought up "self-preservation" as a possible example of one of these building blocks. Shannon said that wasn't right because nobody "claims a situation is immoral because they want to live". I pointed out that, in fact, lots of cultures claim a situation is immoral because people want to die". I'm just placing Self-Preservation correctly in the tool box of "basic building blocks" or "proto-moral behaviors". |
I disagree.
Self preservation is an instinct, not a moral behavior. It's the reason roaches scurry away when the light comes on. Surely, you wouldn't argue that cockroaches have a sense of morality. Someone wanting to die may be acting contrary to their instinct which society expects them to follow, but how are the expectations of society the gauge of morality? Society may expect behaviors that are moral, but it may also expect behaviors that are immoral. |
I agree with you Spaz. Cockroaches don't show a "sense of morality". But they do show self-preservation which you characterize correctly as "an instinct". But in Shannon's capuchin monkey's is their "fairness" (if we agree it exists) also not an "instinct"? You wouldn't contend that they are sitting there rationalizing to themselves "hey, that dude got a grape and I got the JACK!" Shannon has pointed to fairness, an apparent instinct in animals, as a basic building block of our morality. I'm pointing out that self-preservation, another instinct, should also be counted as a basic building block as it directs behavior in the same way the fairness instinct does. Valid?
Message edited by author 2008-12-10 18:50:16. |
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12/10/2008 06:50:24 PM · #235 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Man, in other words, exhibits basic blocks of morality (as listed by Shannon) that are not exhibited anywhere else? Is this a logical conclusion? |
No. I already gave the example of monkeys demonstrating a sense of fairness, to your sputtering protest, and you've essentially ignored the dog example. I also explained why morality is essential for teamwork and cooperation in higher social animals. A pack of wolves will not function unless the wolves know they can rely upon their buddies and share the spoils. A dolphin isn't going to help a group corral food unless it knows the group will "do the right thing" by returning the favor.
How would you demonstrate the value of honesty in people? Maybe by showing that, given a choice, people are generally honest unless there's a compelling reason to lie? After all, if honesty were not a value, there probably wouldn't be any particular preference and answers would be random. But then how would that be any different from animals? If you ask Koko the gorilla a question, you'd get an honest answer the vast majority of the time, even though she was certainly capable of lying (and "talking"). In one of my favorite examples, she once broke a sink off the wall in her pen. When her handlers asked what happened, she pointed to an assistant and signed, "Karen were bad!" ;-) |
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12/10/2008 06:54:40 PM · #236 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
in Shannon's capuchin monkey's is their "fairness" (if we agree it exists) also not an "instinct"? You wouldn't contend that they are sitting there rationalizing to themselves "hey, that dude got a grape and I got the JACK!" |
Yes, that's exactly what they're doing. It's not "right," based upon their innate sense of fairness. Self-preservation is a whole different animal (pardon the expression) since survival trumps all, including any sense of what's "right." |
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12/10/2008 07:00:05 PM · #237 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Man, in other words, exhibits basic blocks of morality (as listed by Shannon) that are not exhibited anywhere else? Is this a logical conclusion? |
No. I already gave the example of monkeys demonstrating a sense of fairness, to your sputtering protest, and you've essentially ignored the dog example. I also explained why morality is essential for teamwork and cooperation in higher social animals. A pack of wolves will not function unless the wolves know they can rely upon their buddies and share the spoils. A dolphin isn't going to help a group corral food unless it knows the group will "do the right thing" by returning the favor. |
Yes, I didn't read the dog example yet. but you might mistake my question. I'm not asserting that man is the ONLY animal that shows basic blocks of morality (I'll give you the fairness in the monkeys even though I think it's a bit shaky). I was asking if there are basic blocks, such as "honesty", which are ONLY exhibited in man. "Decency" was another. Is this ONLY exhibited in man?
It looks like you are saying Apes can show honesty, although you do it by showing they can lie. So when Koko lies, is she going against her instinct for honesty?
EDIT: This is interesting. Perhaps you are onto something but have it backward. Lying is the basic block of morality. Is lying hardwired into the brain?
Message edited by author 2008-12-10 19:07:17. |
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12/10/2008 07:11:39 PM · #238 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
when Koko lies, is she going against her instinct for honesty? |
If not, wouldn't she lie all the time? Note that it's only recently that studies have shown evidence of fairness and compassion in animals, so at best we might only be able to say that any given trait hasn't been shown YET. |
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12/10/2008 07:14:13 PM · #239 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
when Koko lies, is she going against her instinct for honesty? |
If not, wouldn't she lie all the time? Note that it's only recently that studies have shown evidence of fairness and compassion in animals, so at best we might only be able to say that any given trait hasn't been shown YET. |
In case you missed the edit, check out the link talking about lying being hardwired. |
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12/10/2008 07:16:06 PM · #240 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps you are onto something but have it backward. Lying is the basic block of morality. |
Yin and yang, baybeh. You can't have lying without honesty, but you at least have to understand the concept of honesty and consequences before you can formulate a lie. |
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12/10/2008 07:18:26 PM · #241 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps you are onto something but have it backward. Lying is the basic block of morality. |
Yin and yang, baybeh. You can't have lying without honesty, but you at least have to understand the concept of honesty and consequences before you can formulate a lie. |
But at least the article argues that it's lying that's hardwired. Now maybe honesty is also hardwired. Would you go for that? |
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12/10/2008 08:00:04 PM · #242 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
maybe honesty is also hardwired. Would you go for that? |
Of course. Haven't I already said as much? |
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12/10/2008 08:10:19 PM · #243 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
maybe honesty is also hardwired. Would you go for that? |
Of course. Haven't I already said as much? |
So both lying and honesty are hardwired? Just making sure here. :) |
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12/10/2008 08:28:00 PM · #244 |
| speaking of religion - some people thank their gods for any blessings or good things they get, but when bad things happen, they blame the bad guy of their religion. is this even fair? i cant help but think sometimes we give religions way too much credit than they deserve! ;) |
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12/10/2008 08:42:06 PM · #245 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
A pack of wolves will not function unless the wolves know they can rely upon their buddies and share the spoils. A dolphin isn't going to help a group corral food unless it knows the group will "do the right thing" by returning the favor. |
Presumably, then, ants and termites and bees are exhibiting at least the onset of moral behavior?
R.
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12/10/2008 09:11:44 PM · #246 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scalvert:
I also explained why morality is essential for teamwork and cooperation in higher social animals. A pack of wolves will not function unless the wolves know they can rely upon their buddies and share the spoils. A dolphin isn't going to help a group corral food unless it knows the group will "do the right thing" by returning the favor. |
Presumably, then, ants and termites and bees are exhibiting at least the onset of moral behavior? |
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12/10/2008 09:17:18 PM · #247 |
| Well, I think we are at the point where I can actually launch into my argument, but I'm too tired now. :) You'll have to wait until tomorrow. But I haven't forgotten about you Shannon. Sweet dreams. ;P |
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12/10/2008 09:51:49 PM · #248 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scalvert:
I also explained why morality is essential for teamwork and cooperation in higher social animals. A pack of wolves will not function unless the wolves know they can rely upon their buddies and share the spoils. A dolphin isn't going to help a group corral food unless it knows the group will "do the right thing" by returning the favor. |
Presumably, then, ants and termites and bees are exhibiting at least the onset of moral behavior? |
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Did you forget to add something?
R.
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12/10/2008 09:53:26 PM · #249 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scalvert:
I also explained why morality is essential for teamwork and cooperation in higher social animals. A pack of wolves will not function unless the wolves know they can rely upon their buddies and share the spoils. A dolphin isn't going to help a group corral food unless it knows the group will "do the right thing" by returning the favor. |
Presumably, then, ants and termites and bees are exhibiting at least the onset of moral behavior? |
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Did you forget to add something?
R. |
i think you just got quoted, Robt ;) |
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12/10/2008 10:05:50 PM · #250 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scalvert:
I also explained why morality is essential for teamwork and cooperation in higher social animals. A pack of wolves will not function unless the wolves know they can rely upon their buddies and share the spoils. A dolphin isn't going to help a group corral food unless it knows the group will "do the right thing" by returning the favor. |
Presumably, then, ants and termites and bees are exhibiting at least the onset of moral behavior? |
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Did you forget to add something?
R. |
No, I don't think so. He merely bolded the word "higher" in quoting his former statement so as to point out that he doesn't consider ants, termites, and bees as being "higher" animals.
At least that's my impression. |
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