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12/08/2008 09:46:57 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
My guess Shannon is we merely have a different definition of "belief system". |
No, we have a different definition of belief. NOT believing in something is disbelief. It's not "belief that you don't believe," nor is it a system of guidance. That's about as valid as saying that not believing in Zorkons from planet Mingo is a belief system.
Message edited by author 2008-12-08 21:47:54. |
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12/08/2008 10:04:58 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
My guess Shannon is we merely have a different definition of "belief system". |
Originally posted by scalvert:
No, we have a different definition of belief. NOT believing in something is disbelief. It's not "belief that you don't believe," nor is it a system of guidance. That's about as valid as saying that not believing in Zorkons from planet Mingo is a belief system. |
What I don't get, and really seems abundantly clear is that as I understand it, atheists believe there is no God.
Some people just don't believe in God.....and they don't think about it as it's not a part of who they are.
This is a quite distinct difference.
Those people do not have a belief system simply because they don't believe.
Is that unclear?
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12/08/2008 10:08:44 PM · #128 |
| is there a name for those who believes there is a God, but chooses not to practice any form of religion? |
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12/08/2008 10:13:16 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Decisions are made directly or indirectly on whether they believe in a supreme being. |
Not necessarily.
If someone believes that there is a supreme being, that's one thing....if they believe that there is no supreme being, that's another.
These are conscious choices, decisions, thought processes.
There are plenty of people who just don't think about it because they don't believe in something, so they just go through life.
You have to have meaning and purpose in life.
I think you'd be astounded at how many people out there just exist from one moment to the next and don't attach much signifigance to it.
These are not people who make some conscious decision to live a certain way because they believe there is no God.....they just live, and don't spend any time on the idea at all.
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12/08/2008 10:13:30 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by crayon:
is there a name for those who believes there is a God, but chooses not to practice any form of religion? |
Theist.
R.
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12/08/2008 10:13:56 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by crayon:
is there a name for those who believes there is a God, but chooses not to practice any form of religion? |
Yeah......a Unitarian Universalist......8>)
ETA: The reason I ended up there is because I hate the way that religions make people miserable in the name of God.....and the things that they do when they empower themselves by convincing themselves that theirs is the only way, the right way, and basically look down on, or try to force their ideas on the rest of us.
All under the guise that we are misguided and only "They" have seen the true light.
How human and arrogant.
Message edited by author 2008-12-08 22:21:11.
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12/08/2008 10:15:43 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Those people do not have a belief system simply because they don't believe.
Is that unclear? |
Yes, very. I'm not dense Jeb. I understand what Shannon is saying. I disagree with it. Perhaps Shannon's post has cracked an avenue of understanding. I do not consider a "belief" and a "disbelief" to be logically (ie. in a formal philosophical sense) different other than they represent two sides of a philosophical coin.
Does someone who doesn't believe in Evolution have a belief system about the origin of the species?
Does someone who doesn't believe Euthenasia is moral have a belief system about Euthenasia?
Shannon avoids the question and did not define "belief system". He refused even to define belief. He merely offered "disbelief".
So I ask Shannon again to either define "belief system" or "belief" as he sees it. I bet he doesn't do it because it will become obvious that you can use his definition with the phrase "God doesn't exist". We'll see if I'm wrong. |
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12/08/2008 10:23:44 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Those people do not have a belief system simply because they don't believe.
Is that unclear? |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Yes, very. I'm not dense Jeb. I understand what Shannon is saying. I disagree with it. |
I've been saying it, too.
Just because you disagree doesn't mean it isn't so.
Some people just don't believe, and they don't have this big ol' thing about it that you're trying to say that they do.
It just isn't so.
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12/08/2008 10:32:22 PM · #134 |
Jason, it seems to me that you have some understanding and acceptance issues. It's apparently incomprehensible to you that some people just don't have any views or thoughts on the matter, and that they don't care.
For someone such as yourself, that concept must seem blasphemous in and of itself.
But it is what it is.......some people just don't have religion, God, and/or a belief system in their lives.
I don't mean this as anything but an obsevation, but I think you may not have been exposed to a lot of different people as regards to different socio-economic strata.
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12/08/2008 10:36:19 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Does someone who doesn't believe in Evolution have a belief system about the origin of the species?
Does someone who doesn't believe Euthenasia is moral have a belief system about Euthenasia? |
They might or might not. Either way, "disbelief in evolution" or "disbelief in euthanasia" wouldn't be a belief system (that would be whatever alternate beliefs they might hold, if any).
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So I ask Shannon again to either define "belief system" or "belief" as he sees it. |
I pretty much did that already way back at 1:21 this afternoon. You either didn't see it or ignored it. A belief system is a set of beliefs used for decisions and guidance. Nobody uses "Smurfs don't exist" for decisions and guidance. You might describe your belief system as one that follows mainstream Christian principles (a set of things you believe in), however you would NOT describe your believe system as "disbelief in atheism" because disbelief is very obviously not something one believes in. |
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12/08/2008 10:37:48 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Jason, it seems to me that you have some understanding and acceptance issues. It's apparently incomprehensible to you that some people just don't have any views or thoughts on the matter, and that they don't care. |
Oh I know those people exist. I know nobody on this thread is among them because they are so completely vocal about their opinions. Shannon, Louis, Gordon "not care" about whether God exists or not? Hardly. I respect them for that. I have a much harder time with people who "don't care" enough to have a well thought out framework for their worldview. A la carte philosophy. I'll have a little of this and a side of that. An atheist has ordered the steak meal and knows what they believe.
The semantics, however, of claiming no belief system is silly. Can I get away from having a belief system if I claim I disbelieve in the nonexistence of God? Pure semantics.
Message edited by author 2008-12-08 22:38:26. |
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12/08/2008 10:41:33 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
I pretty much did that already way back at 1:21 this afternoon. You either didn't see it or ignored it. A belief system is a set of beliefs used for decisions and guidance. |
So to frame it in a positive manner (versus using negative prefixes like dis-), would it be fair to say you believe only the physical world exists? "There is only our natural world" as the placard states. That sounds like a positive statement and one you could build a belief system upon. |
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12/08/2008 10:54:36 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Jason, it seems to me that you have some understanding and acceptance issues. It's apparently incomprehensible to you that some people just don't have any views or thoughts on the matter, and that they don't care. |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Oh I know those people exist. |
YAY!!! Now we're getting somewhere.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I have a much harder time with people who "don't care" enough to have a well thought out framework for their worldview. |
Harder time what? Acknowledging that they exist? Accepting them? Allowing them the same right as you to go through life on their own without interference from you or I?
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The semantics, however, of claiming no belief system is silly. Can I get away from having a belief system if I claim I disbelieve in the nonexistence of God? Pure semantics. |
That's true, the semantics part is silly.
But there just are people who do not think about it, so they don't have a framework of beliefs. They just go about what it is that they do.....as they were shown, or whatever rut they fell into.
They just don't exist on any intellectual plane that requires forethought and direction. They just do.....and that's it.
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12/08/2008 10:54:58 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
ETA: The reason I ended up there is because I hate the way that religions make people miserable in the name of God.....and the things that they do when they empower themselves by convincing themselves that theirs is the only way, the right way, and basically look down on, or try to force their ideas on the rest of us.
All under the guise that we are misguided and only "They" have seen the true light.
How human and arrogant. |
That is how humans are, unfortunately. Accurate or otherwise, religion DOES serve a purpose. We cant deny there are people in this world that needed religion to keep them going. These people do not have a sense of purpose or direction, and continuously seeks a guide in their life. These people benefits from the set of rules that religion provides. And then we have another group of people that needs religion, these are those who needs hope. Good examples are those suffering from illnesses, or loss the will to live. Religion provides these people with the hope of an afterlife, or new beginnings (depending on religion types). And thirdly, religion provides a form of control and self discipline for the type of people that otherwise would have caused harm to either himself or the people around him. This aspect of religion is usually in the form of punishment and rewards, for instance, the promise of an afterlife, or reincarnation, or everlasting afterlife of suffering or happiness (again, your mileage may wary depending on the religion). So as you can see, religion has a strong purpose for most people.
Now, there is a reason why, as you mentioned, that people with strong belief in religion may appear arrogant, think theirs is the only true religion or way, or try to force their ideas on others. This is easily explained. Look at it this way - after you bought a Canon, you try to tell everyone else that Canon is THE camera to buy. This could be driven by selfishness (hoping for larger user base, more support, etc), or non-selfish reasons, to share the joy you got from Canon products. I would like to call this the "mental trap" whereby you are so convinced that something is THE thing to do/get, you closed your mind towards any other alternatives, and continuously lend your support to that particular product/brand (or religion) without question. But of course, the Canon thing was just an example to show my point. Religion is much more larger than that. It is a way of life, and as such, it answers why believers of faith is so reluctant to accept the existence of other religions/Gods besides their own.
And then, we have the non-faithfuls. To the people of faith, these non-faithfuls are like lost lemmings, without a guide or purpose, and assumed to be living miserable lives because of not believing in God, or a particular religion. I would like to point out that, just because you have a Canon camera and is enjoying life with it, doesnt mean that those without a camera (note, not just using other brands, but without a camera entirely) are living boring lives. These people are just like the non-faithfuls. They live their lives just like anyone else, but just do not have the interest in photography, or in cameras nor lenses.
All that said, I have an underlying question which I hope I could find a good answer to - why is it that people put more emphasis and priority into their religion than into the God they believed in? Which is more important to these people, God or religion? |
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12/08/2008 11:00:07 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by karmat:
I'm sure there are some that do that, but in this discussion, I thought that I had made it very, very, very clear that I was not, in your words, "injecting god" into anything. Aside from one statement about me, I haven't tried to make religion play a role in anything. |
Good thing my post was only descibing my general experience with theists, then! :)
Originally posted by karmat:
Actually, according to what I understand Jac and Louis to be saying, no, atheists do NOT have a belief system. |
As has been suggested since, I don't think anyone's trying to say atheists don't have a belief system. Atheists have a belief system. It simply has nothing to do with gods. That was my own point. Jac? Louis? Am I mistaken?
Originally posted by karmat:
I still don't understand how my opinion that atheists have a belief system is detrimental or a lack of respect for their opinions. Whether they know it or not, or even if they want to know it or not, Louis and scalvert have helped me in my journey quite a bit the past year or so. Perhaps not to the end they would have "liked" (if they even care), but they have caused me to question, research and think about issues that I normally wouldn't have. Had I not had a fundamental respect for their opinions, this would have never occurred. Disagreeing with someone is not tantamount to disrespecting them |
I'm not sure how to answer that... since, as above, I really don't think anybody's arguing that atheists don't have a belief system. Doesn't everyone? To try to respond anyway, I feel that saying (not you, specifically) atheism is a belief system disrespects the actual belief systems that atheists have.
Atheist says: "My belief system is based on A"
Theist says: "No it's not, it's based on absence of B"
That exchange is on it's face a lack of respect for the statement of the atheist... for who has absolute authority on what one believes and why they believe it, if not the belivers themselves?
When an atheist says "My beliefs come from my upbringing and what I've seen of the world, and I try to apply reason and wisdom to interpreting it all", religious folk tend to come along and say "and hugely important in that system is the gaping hole left in the sky where god should be, and you would act totally differently if he were there!" Then, when atheists respond "But your god is as important to me as a teapot floating around the Jupiter, purple elephants, zeus, shiva, etc. etc." the religious almost always (and unfairly, IMO) respond "Yeah but if god were so inconsequential to you, you wouldn't be talking with me about god right now!"
What I hear is, "Oh you cute little atheists, so deluded about the importance of god in you own belief systems! Don't worry, we know better!"
What theists forget is that a rationalist would put up just as much of a fuss when debating someone who insists that marshmallows were made on planet Marsh and shipped here by Marshians. It's the principle of the thing, dammit! When rationalist atheists see people making statements about something they themselves see as completely absurd (god), they're practically compelled to poke holes. That's what rationalists do! None of it proves god's importance in an atheist's belief system any more than it would the Marshians'. The belief system that's being exhibited here isn't the atheism... it's the rationalism. I'd even posit it's often part of the rationalist's belief system that NOT being purposefully contrary in the face of irrationality will grease the world's slide into chaos! Dark Ages 2.0!
I found this, it may be illustrative:
"Atheism, a disbelief or lack of belief in a God, can be on any basis, or none at all, so it doesn't require rationalism. Furthermore, rationalism does not, in itself, affirm or deny atheism, although it does reject any belief based on faith alone. Modern-day rationalism is strongly correlated with atheism, although historically this was not so."
And now, to whip out my own belief system in redards to suffering and how long we live our lives (corporeal vs. eternity)... I find the suggestion that it is somehow less of a moral imperative to reduce suffering when we know more awaits us after this life utterly abhorrent. That one could even remotely justify pointless suffering because it might be inconsequential in the scheme of things... Ugh!
Converesely, I also find it a bit shocking that a theist would even imply that an atheist could, in effect, have more compelling reasons for clasically moral behavior because of a lack of belief in the afterlife, by putting more of a premium on the suffering of his fellow man. Heck, if atheism reenforces the importance of doing good in the here and now, perhaps that's the best argument for popularizing it! |
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12/08/2008 11:00:09 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The semantics, however, of claiming no belief system is silly. |
You're the only one trying to make that claim. Go back and read the earlier conversation. Louis and I both said we certainly have beliefs and principles, but disbelief in something is not a belief. Example: you might make a decision based upon your belief in God, but not upon your disbelief in Zeus. The latter is simply not a factor. You go by what you DO believe in, and give no thought whatsoever to cartoon characters or Mayan spirits. If they're not real, then they play no role whatsoever in the real-world decisions you make. |
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12/08/2008 11:16:06 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
There are plenty of people who just don't think about it because they don't believe in something, so they just go through life.
You have to have meaning and purpose in life.
I think you'd be astounded at how many people out there just exist from one moment to the next and don't attach much signifigance to it.
These are not people who make some conscious decision to live a certain way because they believe there is no God.....they just live, and don't spend any time on the idea at all. |
I'd amend this a bit actually... I think a lot of people would LIKE to live this way, without gods being an issue, but are continually frustrated in their attempts by the reality of living amongst large numbers of theists. It makes it really hard to avoid at times!
And people complain about gays flaunting their 'lifestyle'. Praise to god is even evident in the theist's architecture, fer chrissakes! |
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12/08/2008 11:18:17 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
And people complain about gays flaunting their 'lifestyle'. |
Now, now... it's not quite the same since religious belief is a choice. ;-) |
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12/08/2008 11:52:05 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
I don't know that its a matter of being vehement, so much as trying to articulate a point... but not being able to express it in a way that is understood.
My own analogy is similar to being a kid & believing in the easter bunny / tooth fairy / santa, etc. Once we reach a point of no longer believing in a fairy tale or story, we simply do not believe it.
Does NOT believing in the above tales consume a large part of the way one lives? No, because it simply isn't relevant to daily life. (Where a religious person's beliefs DO play a major role.) Hence, the reason many don't find atheism / agnosticism to be a system of belief.
Hope that helps. |
That about sums it up for me. I want to explain it, as do many others, but I just cannot formulate my thoughts as to why I think believing in one of many belief system available is simply not for me. I get frustrated with that and it shows in my posts and I'm sorry to those I offend, I really am.
There aren't any answers to our questions and even the greatest minds cannot satisfy my need for answers. I've read Harris and Dawkins and they don't know more than any one of us here but have a way to articulate their thoughts, and that suits many and that's why they're popular among non-believers. It all comes down to how you were raised and the choices you were given as a child in making your decisions. You are limited only by your own knowledge.
I'm babbling...good night.
eta. Mousie, yes that's about it. I believe in morals, rules and how people should act among others but that's where it stops. I don't believe that murder is wrong because I was told it is and or that it was written in a book long ago, I believe it is wrong because it takes a human life. I don't want to steal my neighbor's 60ft yacht because I know I won't be sent to hell by a god, I simply do not want to, out of respect for him as a human being. Is that a belief system? Not in my book, it's just the way it is and the way it can be, without religion as a rule book to live by. I find it really odd that some people say they wouldn't know what to do without their god's guidance. That scares the crap out of me.
g'night , again.
Message edited by author 2008-12-09 00:16:18. |
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12/08/2008 11:53:08 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The semantics, however, of claiming no belief system is silly. |
You're the only one trying to make that claim. Go back and read the earlier conversation. Louis and I both said we certainly have beliefs and principles, but disbelief in something is not a belief. Example: you might make a decision based upon your belief in God, but not upon your disbelief in Zeus. The latter is simply not a factor. You go by what you DO believe in, and give no thought whatsoever to cartoon characters or Mayan spirits. If they're not real, then they play no role whatsoever in the real-world decisions you make. |
So what DO you believe in Shannon? And would you be so kind as to respond to my last post asking if it was equivalent to "There is only our natural world".
I do tire of these games. If you have a belief system, then just out with it. "I'm sure Louis, or anyone else, has all sorts of valid belief systems." (to quote you) Is the fact you disbelieve in a Supreme Being part of that system or is it some esoteric idea that has no connection to anything else? How about I just throw up my hands at your linguistic gymnastics and say, "whatever you want Shannon". If you can admit you have a view of the world and that on some level that view includes the fact no God exists, then I'm happy as a clam. We can go on talking about something else.
As far as Jeb, I'd be interested to see if you have the chutzpah to stand up and state what YOU believe in. It's easy to participate on these threads and tear down someone else's system. Do you think your own can stand the scrutiny?
Message edited by author 2008-12-08 23:54:26. |
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12/09/2008 12:16:31 AM · #146 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So what DO you believe in Shannon? And would you be so kind as to respond to my last post asking if it was equivalent to "There is only our natural world". |
I think the problem here is the use of the term "believe in". When people of faith use the term, it becomes religious. I would never say, for example, that I "believe in" the theory of evolution; I'd say I believe it's true.
It seems to me that you are trying to insist that everyone, whether they admit it or not, has some sort of credo or core belief that governs their life and fulfills the function that your personal belief in God does for you. And I don't think that's true. I don't think everyone HAS to "believe in" something to be a thinking, caring, functional human being.
I think YOU are the one that's engaging in semantics right now, Doc, and I have seen you do it before. You're trying to manipulate terms to force Shannon into a corner where he acknowledges that you're right and he's wrong: but I just see you two as "different" and I don't understand what the fuss here is about.
R.
Message edited by author 2008-12-09 00:17:40.
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12/09/2008 12:18:22 AM · #147 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The semantics, however, of claiming no belief system is silly. |
You're the only one trying to make that claim. Go back and read the earlier conversation. Louis and I both said we certainly have beliefs and principles, but disbelief in something is not a belief. Example: you might make a decision based upon your belief in God, but not upon your disbelief in Zeus. The latter is simply not a factor. You go by what you DO believe in, and give no thought whatsoever to cartoon characters or Mayan spirits. If they're not real, then they play no role whatsoever in the real-world decisions you make. |
So what DO you believe in Shannon? And would you be so kind as to respond to my last post asking if it was equivalent to "There is only our natural world".
I do tire of these games. If you have a belief system, then just out with it. "I'm sure Louis, or anyone else, has all sorts of valid belief systems." (to quote you) Is the fact you disbelieve in a Supreme Being part of that system or is it some esoteric idea that has no connection to anything else? How about I just throw up my hands at your linguistic gymnastics and say, "whatever you want Shannon". If you can admit you have a view of the world and that on some level that view includes the fact no God exists, then I'm happy as a clam. We can go on talking about something else.
As far as Jeb, I'd be interested to see if you have the chutzpah to stand up and state what YOU believe in. It's easy to participate on these threads and tear down someone else's system. Do you think your own can stand the scrutiny? |
Why does what they believe have any bearing on whether atheism itself is a belief system? To what are you attempting to hold them accountable?
Is airing the specifics of one's personal belief system now the litmus for determining the validity of one's arguments?
Just curious. |
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12/09/2008 12:23:43 AM · #148 |
Also, hasn't Jeb been pretty damn clear about what motivates him? More than most?
He spends a LOT of time talking about it, from my point of view...
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12/09/2008 12:33:53 AM · #149 |
| I believe atheism isn't a belief system. |
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12/09/2008 12:36:19 AM · #150 |
Oh heck, I can answer DrAchoo myself! Why not? It doesn't really prove anything for this argument, but I can certainly use words to frame my position in a way that completely explains why someone like me would spend time and effort on speaking about religion without being religious myself.
(Part of) My belief system:
History shows that the applied irrationality of man has caused and will cause much of the suffering on this planet. It is a moral imperative to learn from and correct these mistakes (there it is!) for the betterment of all, but even then we won't escape suffering, since humans make mistakes regardless of their good intentions, and the world is an inherently dangerous place.
Done and done, and nary a mention of any gods, but with a compelling reason to be vocally atheist in response to being surrounded by theists with a very real influence on your life!
Message edited by author 2008-12-09 00:40:56. |
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