Red DSMC Camera System!!!! - DPChallenge Forums

11/13/2008 12:31:57 PM · #1

//red.cachefly.net/DSMC/epic_scarlet_brochure_large.jpg

This will change the entire industry!

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

11/13/2008 12:44:03 PM · #2

We just got done for the season with the show that I was on.

We used the Red system. Actually, the Exec. Prod. owned 3 of them.

I have been in the biz over 22 years now, and I have to say in all honesty, and from practical experience, the Red is over rated.

It is a computer with a lens.

There were countless times that production stood idle because the Red crashed, or the hard drive stopped, and not to mention that the look is too crisp.

FX had to add smoke every day for 5 months, both on location and on stage in order to make the look of the imagery look less crisp, and more film like.

I am sure that this is the future, but for now, it is way over rated.

digitalpins

Canon EOS-60D

11/13/2008 01:01:20 PM · #3

oh wow.....

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

11/13/2008 01:07:17 PM · #4

Cutting edge technology often has "cutting" pains. I just worked as a DP on two Red films (using build 16). I never had a single issue with drives crashing or loosing footage.
My big hangup is the slower paced software support. Yea, its not great at all for now, but Adobe released a very big statement about fully supporting the new red camera system. That speaks volumes for the post support side of things. As for the camera being a computer with a lens.... what DSLR isn't! They are all computers hooked up to a sensor and lens. Not sure what your point is.

As for the image being too sharp, I beg to differ as to why sharpness is a problem. It's 35mm DOF, with some of the best lenses made mounted to it. I don't know a single DP who doesn't want the camera to start out optically sharp. You can also shut down all post sharpening if you want to, it still looks very nice and nowhere near what typical video is.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

11/13/2008 01:17:38 PM · #5

I looked at the prices. That made me say "WOW"! Of course it's not really designed to be a DSLR.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

11/13/2008 01:21:13 PM · #6

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

I looked at the prices. That made me say "WOW"! Of course it's not really designed to be a DSLR.

?

It can be a DSLR if you want it to be. I'm personally not to hot on the DSLR with an electronic viewfinder concept... However, I do like the idea of having a medium and large format camera that can shoot stills. I should point out, there actually is a third party adapter made by P&S Technic in Germany that allows optical viewfinders to be used on the Red cameras. So I guess it might not be an issue after all.

We'll have to wait and see!

Spork99

OM System OM-1

11/13/2008 01:46:34 PM · #7

Originally posted by cardmaverick:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I looked at the prices. That made me say "WOW"! Of course it's not really designed to be a DSLR.

?

It can be a DSLR if you want it to be. I'm personally not to hot on the DSLR with an electronic viewfinder concept... However, I do like the idea of having a medium and large format camera that can shoot stills. I should point out, there actually is a third party adapter made by P&S Technic in Germany that allows optical viewfinders to be used on the Red cameras. So I guess it might not be an issue after all.

We'll have to wait and see!

If I wanted to make movies, I'd be much more interested. It seems to be an impressive system with a tremendous amount of flexibility, but as simply a DSLR replacement, it's a bit pricy compared to even Pro DSLR's.

Of course, they are starting to make more and more movies in my area so...

11/13/2008 02:13:42 PM · #8

To be fair, I have to say, the current Red EVF is the best EVF I have ever used before... so with that said, I might not dislike it totally on a DSLR. It would certainly take a while to get used too.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/13/2008 04:47:32 PM · #9

Originally posted by cardmaverick:

As for the camera being a computer with a lens.... what DSLR isn't! They are all computers hooked up to a sensor and lens. Not sure what your point is.

As for the image being too sharp, I beg to differ as to why sharpness is a problem. It's 35mm DOF, with some of the best lenses made mounted to it. I don't know a single DP who doesn't want the camera to start out optically sharp. You can also shut down all post sharpening if you want to, it still looks very nice and nowhere near what typical video is.

Don't try to insult me...kid.

Funny, I don't know a single DP in my 22 years in the motion picture industry that wants overly sharp images. They want "film like" images.

Optically sharp is one thing, seeing the edges of the actor, or the back ground, or what ever is too damn sharp. Even with the in camera sharpening feature turned off, it is still overly sharp.

An industrial video, or some music video that you probly DP may be just fine with the look, but here in Hollywood where the RED has to prove itself from Panavisions Geneis HD system, and old school film, with multimillion dollar movies, and television shows, it has a ways to go.

And I guess my point that I failed to mention on the RED crashing is that it is NOT a location camera. It is a studio camera. Bouncing around from truck, to bag, to dolly, back to the bag, to the truck, and again, and again, and again, makes me think that this is a problem for the RED. It is not a rugged camera, at all.

My 1d Mark 2 is a computer with a lens, but is way more rugged than the Red system.

EDIT: I looked at your online portfolio, nice stuff. I seee you have a handle on lighting and blocking, but still think the RED is over rated.

Message edited by author 2008-11-13 21:15:10.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

11/13/2008 04:52:47 PM · #10

I want a sensor with +13 stops of dynamic range ... :-(

dwterry

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

11/13/2008 06:20:34 PM · #11

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I want a sensor with +13 stops of dynamic range ... :-(

Heck ya!

Greetmir

Nikon D60

Sigma 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 DC OS for Nikon

11/13/2008 08:39:18 PM · #12

Originally posted by dwterry:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
I want a sensor with +13 stops of dynamic range ... :-(

Heck ya!

... EASY ... first you start with up to 35 GRAND for just the brain ... then ...

11/13/2008 11:27:17 PM · #13

Originally posted by Man_Called_Horse:

Originally posted by cardmaverick:
As for the camera being a computer with a lens.... what DSLR isn't! They are all computers hooked up to a sensor and lens. Not sure what your point is.

As for the image being too sharp, I beg to differ as to why sharpness is a problem. It's 35mm DOF, with some of the best lenses made mounted to it. I don't know a single DP who doesn't want the camera to start out optically sharp. You can also shut down all post sharpening if you want to, it still looks very nice and nowhere near what typical video is.

Don't try to insult me...kid.

Funny, I don't know a single DP in my 22 years in the motion picture industry that wants overly sharp images. They want "film like" images.

Optically sharp is one thing, seeing the edges of the actor, or the back ground, or what ever is too damn sharp. Even with the in camera sharpening feature turned off, it is still overly sharp.

An industrial video, or some music video that you probly DP may be just fine with the look, but here in Hollywood where the RED has to prove itself from Panavisions Geneis HD system, and old school film, with multimillion dollar movies, and television shows, it has a ways to go.

And I guess my point that I failed to mention on the RED crashing is that it is NOT a location camera. It is a studio camera. Bouncing around from truck, to bag, to dolly, back to the bag, to the truck, and again, and again, and again, makes me think that this is a problem for the RED. It is not a rugged camera, at all.

My 1d Mark 2 is a computer with a lens, but is way more rugged than the Red system.

EDIT: I looked at your online portfolio, nice stuff. I seee you have a handle on lighting and blocking, but still think the RED is over rated.

Don't get all ticked off. I'm not a kid, I'm a pro DP/Colorist whose shot for National Geographic, TIME Magazine, an MTV music video, and done several regional commericals. If you want the proof, I can certainly provide it... Thank you for the port compliment however. My commercial photography work isn't very well represented at www.chrisnuzzaco.com (It's mainly pushing my demo reel, which is being updated very soon). My commercial work is better repped here: //www.modelmayhem.com/143454 Also, I never submit anything here anymore, its all super old/lame work from years back.

The RED camera body is very rugged and solid. David Mullen, ASC recounted an incident on his latest feature shot using the RED involving a giraff (you read that right) kicking a 2nd unit camera. It still worked fine. If that ain't rugged, I don't know what the hell is. What you are referring to is more on the software side of things. The camera software has undergone some 17 revisions that have improved everything from boot time to compression quality, to frame rates. It's a new camera, it's in development, there's gonna be growing pains. I think your issue with the sharpness of the camera has more to do with the fact that its not a grain based image. You can make it look very "filmic" and grainy and soft if you want. Most will do it in post, but some DP's shoot thru diffusion as well. I just don't see what the problem is.

11/14/2008 12:16:30 AM · #14

Originally posted by cardmaverick:

Originally posted by Man_Called_Horse:

Originally posted by cardmaverick:
As for the camera being a computer with a lens.... what DSLR isn't! They are all computers hooked up to a sensor and lens. Not sure what your point is.

As for the image being too sharp, I beg to differ as to why sharpness is a problem. It's 35mm DOF, with some of the best lenses made mounted to it. I don't know a single DP who doesn't want the camera to start out optically sharp. You can also shut down all post sharpening if you want to, it still looks very nice and nowhere near what typical video is.

Don't try to insult me...kid.

Funny, I don't know a single DP in my 22 years in the motion picture industry that wants overly sharp images. They want "film like" images.

EDIT: And at 23...you are a kid.

Optically sharp is one thing, seeing the edges of the actor, or the back ground, or what ever is too damn sharp. Even with the in camera sharpening feature turned off, it is still overly sharp.

An industrial video, or some music video that you probly DP may be just fine with the look, but here in Hollywood where the RED has to prove itself from Panavisions Geneis HD system, and old school film, with multimillion dollar movies, and television shows, it has a ways to go.

And I guess my point that I failed to mention on the RED crashing is that it is NOT a location camera. It is a studio camera. Bouncing around from truck, to bag, to dolly, back to the bag, to the truck, and again, and again, and again, makes me think that this is a problem for the RED. It is not a rugged camera, at all.

My 1d Mark 2 is a computer with a lens, but is way more rugged than the Red system.

EDIT: I looked at your online portfolio, nice stuff. I seee you have a handle on lighting and blocking, but still think the RED is over rated.

Don't get all ticked off. I'm not a kid, I'm a pro DP/Colorist whose shot for National Geographic, TIME Magazine, an MTV music video, and done several regional commericals. If you want the proof, I can certainly provide it... Thank you for the port compliment however. My commercial photography work isn't very well represented at //www.chrisnuzzaco.com (It's mainly pushing my demo reel, which is being updated very soon). My commercial work is better repped here: //www.modelmayhem.com/143454 Also, I never submit anything here anymore, its all super old/lame work from years back.

The RED camera body is very rugged and solid. David Mullen, ASC recounted an incident on his latest feature shot using the RED involving a giraff (you read that right) kicking a 2nd unit camera. It still worked fine. If that ain't rugged, I don't know what the hell is. What you are referring to is more on the software side of things. The camera software has undergone some 17 revisions that have improved everything from boot time to compression quality, to frame rates. It's a new camera, it's in development, there's gonna be growing pains. I think your issue with the sharpness of the camera has more to do with the fact that its not a grain based image. You can make it look very "filmic" and grainy and soft if you want. Most will do it in post, but some DP's shoot thru diffusion as well. I just don't see what the problem is.

No problem, just felt a bit slighted is all.

Any hoooo, the software certainly was an issue, and all I have to say is even though you may have some good experience with the Red, for the past 5 months, five days a week, 12 to 16 hours a day on a job, we had our issues.

Software, and hard drive both had issues.

Your camera was probly made on wednesday, when ours were probly made on Friday.

Who the f... knows what the common denominator was, but, as you should well know, time is money.

Until the machine can be more reliable, I stick to my original point, that is, the Red is over rated.

EDIT: At age 23, you are a kid. :)

Message edited by author 2008-11-14 08:19:54.

11/15/2008 10:48:12 AM · #15

LOL, yeah, but my hairline helps me downplay it. I'm young, but tenacious, it's why I moved up the "food chain" really fast and landed DP gigs at places like Nat Geo.

What I really think is overrated about Red, is the software. I'm currently down in Miami colorizing a film, or was supposed to be rather....

Were having huge issues with Redcine and overall .r3d file support. I honestly hate the post side of Red now. I can't deny the image quality however, especially when you export the files as 4K 16 bit tiffs. It's pretty amazing. The management of that type of file is nuts however! Were now exporting 10 bit 4:2:2 uncompressed QT's to get rid of extra 0's and what not, and the quality seems to be the same (probably because the 4:2:2 matches the whole bayer filtering arrangement, or at least compliments the realities of it fairly well) . I DON'T recommend any prores BS, 10 bit prores does not work in After Effects, the whole clip looks like static at 16 bit and only shows up right at 8 bit, kind of pointless when your trying to use 10 bit files! It's been a PITA, but I'm doing it because I know I'll like the end result :)

Funny how your hardware had issues. Again, I think it was all software, because lame software makes good hardware less useful. IE. running a PC with linux VS Windows..... LOL