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 10/30/2008 03:33:04 PM · #26
Originally posted by Bernard_Marx:
I liked some of his photos. There are some really interesting shots in his collection. I also shoot on the street and often don't ask for permission.

But I don't stick my camera 5 inches from an unsuspecting elderly woman's face just to get her panicked reaction.


To me, this is the difference between his shots and the OP's. He's creating the shot by invading a person's personal space in an agressive way then capturing the reaction. That's a little different from observing and capturing what's already happening around you.
 10/30/2008 03:51:30 PM · #27
There are several issues being discussed. Two of them are:
1. Does this guy create any interesting images?
2. Is he an ass?

These two issues are not highly correlated in my opinion. Personally, I think that:
1. Yes, he produces some interesting photos, and
2. Yes, he is an ass

In fact, the very act that I found so offensive produced a photo which I found equally interesting. I think that if you lined up 12 people, punched them in the gut and took their photo, it would be very likely that the resulting images would be interesting to me. I would also consider you a jerk.

I like a great deal of art and literature produced by jerks. But let̢۪s not conflate the two issues.

Message edited by author 2008-10-30 15:53:30.
 10/30/2008 03:56:22 PM · #28
Originally posted by Bernard_Marx:

1. Yes, he produces some interesting photos, and
2. Yes, he is an ass


LOL

Originally posted by Bernard_Marx:
I think that if you lined up 12 people, punched them in the gut and took their photo, it would be very likely that the resulting images would be interesting to me.


What are you, a frickin Sadist? ;)

For the record. I think I can be a bit of a jerk But what fun it is...

Message edited by author 2008-10-30 16:17:04.
 10/30/2008 03:56:31 PM · #29
Originally posted by Bernard_Marx:
There are several issues being discussed. Two of them are:
1. Does this guy create any interesting images?
2. Is he an ass?

These two issues are not highly correlated in my opinion. Personally, I think that:
1. Yes, he produces some interesting photos, and
2. Yes, he is an ass

In fact, the very act that I found so offensive produced a photo which I found equally interesting. I think that if you lined up 12 people, punched them in the gut and took their photo, it would be very likely that the resulting images would be interesting to me. I would also consider you a jerk.

I like a great deal of art and literature produced by jerks. But let̢۪s not conflate the two issues.


Nicely put.
 10/30/2008 04:28:49 PM · #30
Originally posted by Bernard_Marx:


In fact, the very act that I found so offensive produced a photo which I found equally interesting. I think that if you lined up 12 people, punched them in the gut and took their photo, it would be very likely that the resulting images would be interesting to me. I would also consider you a jerk.


An off question: What would you think if I made a lifetime career of taking images of people being lined up and punched in the gut? If I took hundreds of them? Would you be interested in that many "punched in the stomach" reaction shots?

I agree the first one would be pretty cool and maybe a short series exploring the subject or something similar might be interesting for a minute but that's this guys schtick. Seen 50...seen'em all.

FWIW, if I recall the few images I liked, I thought the people themselves looked very interesting so at the risk of sounding like a butt-head his skills or style weren't what I was digging, in the end.

Just like in the campaigns we're watching. People seemed to be easily WOWed by bullshit, bells and whistles.

Message edited by author 2008-10-30 17:29:37.
 10/30/2008 04:39:42 PM · #31
Originally posted by pawdrix:


An off question: What would you think if I made a lifetime career of taking images of people being lined up and punched in the gut? If I took hundreds of them? Would you be interested in that many "punched in the stomach" reaction shots?

I agree the first one would be pretty cool and maybe a short series exploring the subject or something similar might be interesting for a minute but that's this guys schtick. Seen 50...seen'em all.


Yup. I would consider it a novelty, and the novelty would wear. Then again, the art market likes a good schtick. Nothing sells like a thematic series.
 11/02/2008 01:17:35 AM · #32
I find it being a matter of mutual respect for other human beings. This guy has a huge ego (unjustified from what I saw of his work) and obviously doesn't give a crap about any of those people and will do whatever he wants regardless of anything else. I hope the video camera is there when he jumps in front of a soldier that just returned from Iraq and gets his face split open when the soldier reacts out of pure instinct. For every action there is a reaction and he better be ready to pay that price when he plays these stupid little games.

That being said... people in public places... no right to privacy. I think there is a right to not have some shmuck jump in your face with a camera but that is for each individual to handle how they see fit.

Personally... I have shot many candids with a telephoto from a distance and there is nothing wrong with that at all. However, I would never go jumping in someones face like this guy was doing and I darn sure expect people to respect my space and not do it to me. It is a matter of respect towards your fellow people and if you do not have any then we do not need you on this planet.
 11/02/2008 05:36:58 AM · #33
Originally posted by pamelasue:
I agree ... but sometimes I would like to have my subject completely engaged with the camera ... street portrait vs street candid ... 2 very different things, IMHO ... nothing wrong with either approach and both can produce great results ... depends on what you're going for ... while I was chatting the the flyer dude I was snapping candids like crazy ... he was just so interesting that I wanted him to engage the camera for a different type of shot ...

Yep!

I go for both with & w/out permission.

Kinda depends on the situation.

If you're out in public, it is what it is.

Some people are just rude and obnoxious and anything pisses them off.

You just have to hope and pray that you don't encounter them very often.

I do ask, often, but sometimes I just go for it, too.
 11/02/2008 05:45:58 AM · #34
Originally posted by ralph:
no better / worse than color images of crying children
just a different variant of humanity


Originally posted by pawdrix:
She (Jill Greenberg) got a lot of shit for that, as well. Outside of slick lighting and post processing, I saw almost now value in looking at that series of images.

In terms of humanity, in most of those shots all he showed of humanity was how scared, shocked, repelled, confused people look when a strange photographer gets in their faces with a Flash. Their looks were pretty funny but who cares...they were as expected, no news to me.

I'm trying to figure out what it is that makes people WANT to see other human beings tormented in the name of art/photography.

Personally, I'm not a mean person by nature and it troubles me that I have to share the planet with people who get there jollies in this manner.

I think Jill Greenberg is a miserable excuse for a person.

I can't watch the YouTube 'cause I'm on dialup, but if I get the drift, this guy gets up in people's faces for the effect? What a guy!
 11/02/2008 03:23:58 PM · #35
i think a sense of morbid curiousity is inherent in all human beings. I like to watch those autopsy shows on tv... i don't know why i find it fascinating, I just do. As for Jill Greenberg's work... well, i think it's pointless, and i presume she's gone for some kind of 'artsy' juxtaposition of having kids in a quaint studio setting where all should be smiles, but alas, they be crying. I can imagine her at some exhibition saying how it is "an attempt to undermine social assumptions about studio photography and happy families"... or something.

But what do I know, i'm hungover.
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