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10/15/2008 08:46:03 AM · #151 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Congrats to the West, you got your mini Bush for another few months until another election is called. What a joke! |
You may want to revisit that comment considering that the Conservatives made gains in both Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes... hence you can't blame the western provinces exclusively.
Ray |
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10/15/2008 09:43:47 AM · #152 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Well my tossed vote wouldn't have changed a thing in this election. Matter of fact, if millions of Canadians had voted for the Greens or the NDP, still nothing would have changed. It'll take a major downswing for any governmental change in this country. Harper is kissing everyone's ass and it's working, except in Quebec. Quebecers must have realized that Nation Status in Canada meant absolutely nothing, Aboriginals have known this for hundreds of years. They were duped into thinking that he was going to give them something they have wanted for years but have realized that Harper was just using them for his own needs. No party has a chance in Quebec anymore. Political parties should plan an election campaign excluding Quebec, it's Bloc territory and that won't change for years to come.
Congrats to the West, you got your mini Bush for another few months until another election is called. What a joke! |
Excuse us for having a different view of Canada than you do.
I don't think the opposition will be that stupid to bring down the government in a few months especially with all the talk of a new leader for the Liberals even though Dion says he wants to stay on. He needs to start saying what he feels if right with his view of Canada rather than just spouting what he feels is wrong with those who disagree with him. Deja Vu.
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10/15/2008 09:50:31 AM · #153 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Congrats to the West, you got your mini Bush for another few months until another election is called. What a joke! |
wow... really? you're going to tag this on "The West"? regardless of my oppinion of the results, that's just a stupid comment, it wasn't just "The West" that voted Conservative... they picked up many ridings in "The East" too... I would dare say that if anything it's the fault of "The East" from Onterio east your population and number of riding out numbers "the west"...
Get a grip |
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10/15/2008 11:52:36 AM · #154 |
Originally posted by Louis:
... assholery ... |
That's the smartest thing I've ever heard anyone say about anything - Peter Griffin. |
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10/15/2008 12:02:29 PM · #155 |
Dion is going to have a tough time holding on to power as the head of the Liberals since thye lost so many seats.
I think the whole carbon tax hurt them, even more so when you think that the "center left" vote was split between the Liberals, the NDP and the Greens. Canada needs a new right leaning party to take votes away from the Conservatives. Vote splitting for right leaning voters is now a non-issue since the Progressive Conservatives banded with the Canadian Alliance to form the Conservative Party.
All I hope is that this government will last and that we won't have to hit the polls again for a while. It would be nice to see cooperation and compromise between parties for a change.
Oh yeah, and I also believe many people are tired of continually having Liberal leaders from the province of Quebec. Especially one that has so much difficulty in expressing himself in English as Dion.
I still believe that Frank McKenna would give the Conservatives a run for their money if the Liberals could stop fighting amongst themselves. Maybe in the next ten years... |
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10/15/2008 01:40:31 PM · #156 |
Did anyone watch Rex Murphy during CBC's coverage last night? Or some of the insider commentators? They had it right on. Dion is a great man, an intellectual, a thoughtful person, and he would make a stellar Prime Minister, a true Platonic philosopher-king in the democratic sense. His issue is charisma. My opinion is that it's pitiable that charisma trumps ability every time, and that the opposition always knows this and takes advantage of it, appealing to the lowest of us (the Conservatives' mocking of Dion's intellectualism, for example, as campaign propaganda). It's interesting that even though Harper lacks a Trudeau-style or Rae-style charisma, his brand of stern bullying is still preferable to most Canadians.
This election forced Canadians to decide between what they saw in the leaders, and what the leaders actually are. I feel Canadians ultimately rejected the way to a good choice -- research, reading, talking to candidates, working -- and proved for all time that governments are chosen not on the issues, but on the personalities of the players. |
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10/15/2008 02:01:52 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Did anyone watch Rex Murphy during CBC's coverage last night? Or some of the insider commentators? They had it right on. Dion is a great man, an intellectual, a thoughtful person, and he would make a stellar Prime Minister, a true Platonic philosopher-king in the democratic sense. His issue is charisma. My opinion is that it's pitiable that charisma trumps ability every time, and that the opposition always knows this and takes advantage of it, appealing to the lowest of us (the Conservatives' mocking of Dion's intellectualism, for example, as campaign propaganda). It's interesting that even though Harper lacks a Trudeau-style or Rae-style charisma, his brand of stern bullying is still preferable to most Canadians.
This election forced Canadians to decide between what they saw in the leaders, and what the leaders actually are. I feel Canadians ultimately rejected the way to a good choice -- research, reading, talking to candidates, working -- and proved for all time that governments are chosen not on the issues, but on the personalities of the players. |
too true... Dions problem I think though is not only charisma... One can make up for that to some extent, but if you're not able to layout your platform in an articulate way, that's going to kill you, and it did for Dion, every time he stumbled over explaining his own platform his campain suffered.
I think also that the economic down turn played a major part in changing the outcome too... even people who might have been swayed to vote liberal started thinking with their wallets rather than the other issues... and when ever there is crisis people will tend to the devil they know. |
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10/15/2008 02:05:17 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Originally posted by Louis:
Did anyone watch Rex Murphy during CBC's coverage last night? Or some of the insider commentators? They had it right on. Dion is a great man, an intellectual, a thoughtful person, and he would make a stellar Prime Minister, a true Platonic philosopher-king in the democratic sense. His issue is charisma. My opinion is that it's pitiable that charisma trumps ability every time, and that the opposition always knows this and takes advantage of it, appealing to the lowest of us (the Conservatives' mocking of Dion's intellectualism, for example, as campaign propaganda). It's interesting that even though Harper lacks a Trudeau-style or Rae-style charisma, his brand of stern bullying is still preferable to most Canadians.
This election forced Canadians to decide between what they saw in the leaders, and what the leaders actually are. I feel Canadians ultimately rejected the way to a good choice -- research, reading, talking to candidates, working -- and proved for all time that governments are chosen not on the issues, but on the personalities of the players. |
too true... Dions problem I think though is not only charisma... One can make up for that to some extent, but if you're not able to layout your platform in an articulate way, that's going to kill you, and it did for Dion, every time he stumbled over explaining his own platform his campain suffered.
I think also that the economic down turn played a major part in changing the outcome too... even people who might have been swayed to vote liberal started thinking with their wallets rather than the other issues... and when ever there is crisis people will tend to the devil they know. |
Could be, but it's interesting to hear you, from the west, say the exact opposite of what the pundits said. They said people were turned off the Conservatives by the economic downturn, and trusted the Liberals to manage the economy more in the run-up to last night. Ultimately the leadership issue seemed to seal the Liberals' fate. |
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10/15/2008 02:38:01 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Originally posted by Louis:
Did anyone watch Rex Murphy during CBC's coverage last night? Or some of the insider commentators? They had it right on. Dion is a great man, an intellectual, a thoughtful person, and he would make a stellar Prime Minister, a true Platonic philosopher-king in the democratic sense. His issue is charisma. My opinion is that it's pitiable that charisma trumps ability every time, and that the opposition always knows this and takes advantage of it, appealing to the lowest of us (the Conservatives' mocking of Dion's intellectualism, for example, as campaign propaganda). It's interesting that even though Harper lacks a Trudeau-style or Rae-style charisma, his brand of stern bullying is still preferable to most Canadians.
This election forced Canadians to decide between what they saw in the leaders, and what the leaders actually are. I feel Canadians ultimately rejected the way to a good choice -- research, reading, talking to candidates, working -- and proved for all time that governments are chosen not on the issues, but on the personalities of the players. |
too true... Dions problem I think though is not only charisma... One can make up for that to some extent, but if you're not able to layout your platform in an articulate way, that's going to kill you, and it did for Dion, every time he stumbled over explaining his own platform his campain suffered.
I think also that the economic down turn played a major part in changing the outcome too... even people who might have been swayed to vote liberal started thinking with their wallets rather than the other issues... and when ever there is crisis people will tend to the devil they know. |
Could be, but it's interesting to hear you, from the west, say the exact opposite of what the pundits said. They said people were turned off the Conservatives by the economic downturn, and trusted the Liberals to manage the economy more in the run-up to last night. Ultimately the leadership issue seemed to seal the Liberals' fate. |
I think if the economy was that much of of turn off to the conservatives, then Dion must really be a lack luster leader... |
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10/15/2008 02:59:40 PM · #160 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Congrats to the West, you got your mini Bush for another few months until another election is called. What a joke! |
You say it as if everyone out here voted for the Conservatives, and no one out east voted for them. Perhaps try not to lump everyone in one basket next time. |
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10/15/2008 03:17:47 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Originally posted by Louis:
Did anyone watch Rex Murphy during CBC's coverage last night? Or some of the insider commentators? They had it right on. Dion is a great man, an intellectual, a thoughtful person, and he would make a stellar Prime Minister, a true Platonic philosopher-king in the democratic sense. His issue is charisma. My opinion is that it's pitiable that charisma trumps ability every time, and that the opposition always knows this and takes advantage of it, appealing to the lowest of us (the Conservatives' mocking of Dion's intellectualism, for example, as campaign propaganda). It's interesting that even though Harper lacks a Trudeau-style or Rae-style charisma, his brand of stern bullying is still preferable to most Canadians.
This election forced Canadians to decide between what they saw in the leaders, and what the leaders actually are. I feel Canadians ultimately rejected the way to a good choice -- research, reading, talking to candidates, working -- and proved for all time that governments are chosen not on the issues, but on the personalities of the players. |
too true... Dions problem I think though is not only charisma... One can make up for that to some extent, but if you're not able to layout your platform in an articulate way, that's going to kill you, and it did for Dion, every time he stumbled over explaining his own platform his campain suffered.
I think also that the economic down turn played a major part in changing the outcome too... even people who might have been swayed to vote liberal started thinking with their wallets rather than the other issues... and when ever there is crisis people will tend to the devil they know. |
Could be, but it's interesting to hear you, from the west, say the exact opposite of what the pundits said. They said people were turned off the Conservatives by the economic downturn, and trusted the Liberals to manage the economy more in the run-up to last night. Ultimately the leadership issue seemed to seal the Liberals' fate. |
I think if the economy was that much of of turn off to the conservatives, then Dion must really be a lack luster leader... |
What I saw with Dion is a bull in a China shop. His explanation of the green shift without any contingencies for an economy such as what we have at the moment shows lack of understanding for economics. Mind you, he may feel that pushing the economy over the edge by making everything we do more expensive and therefore slowing it down even more is a good thing.
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10/15/2008 03:24:23 PM · #162 |
| That's a breathtaking misrepresentation of the Liberals' (now dead) economic plan. And what have you to say about Harper's announcement this morning of a six-point plan for the economy to be delivered within thirty days? From the Liberal election platform: "Due to the economic crisis, a five-point plan for the economy will be delivered within thirty days of a Liberal government being elected." Remember how the Conservatives laughed? |
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10/15/2008 03:32:31 PM · #163 |
Originally posted by Louis:
That's a breathtaking misrepresentation of the Liberals' (now dead) economic plan. And what have you to say about Harper's announcement this morning of a six-point plan for the economy to be delivered within thirty days? From the Liberal election platform: "Due to the economic crisis, a five-point plan for the economy will be delivered within thirty days of a Liberal government being elected." Remember how the Conservatives laughed? |
I vaguely remember talking about the green shift. Obviously you trust the Liberals to change the green shift to compensate for the economy though there was no evidence throughout the campaign that there was any bend available in anything that was proposed by the Liberals.
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10/15/2008 03:46:28 PM · #164 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by Louis:
That's a breathtaking misrepresentation of the Liberals' (now dead) economic plan. And what have you to say about Harper's announcement this morning of a six-point plan for the economy to be delivered within thirty days? From the Liberal election platform: "Due to the economic crisis, a five-point plan for the economy will be delivered within thirty days of a Liberal government being elected." Remember how the Conservatives laughed? |
I vaguely remember talking about the green shift. Obviously you trust the Liberals to change the green shift to compensate for the economy though there was no evidence throughout the campaign that there was any bend available in anything that was proposed by the Liberals. |
Originally posted by Louis:
From the Liberal election platform: "Due to the economic crisis, a five-point plan for the economy will be delivered within thirty days of a Liberal government being elected." |
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10/15/2008 03:48:19 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by Louis:
That's a breathtaking misrepresentation of the Liberals' (now dead) economic plan. And what have you to say about Harper's announcement this morning of a six-point plan for the economy to be delivered within thirty days? From the Liberal election platform: "Due to the economic crisis, a five-point plan for the economy will be delivered within thirty days of a Liberal government being elected." Remember how the Conservatives laughed? |
I vaguely remember talking about the green shift. Obviously you trust the Liberals to change the green shift to compensate for the economy though there was no evidence throughout the campaign that there was any bend available in anything that was proposed by the Liberals. |
Originally posted by Louis:
From the Liberal election platform: "Due to the economic crisis, a five-point plan for the economy will be delivered within thirty days of a Liberal government being elected." |
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Repeating it doesn't make it state that the green shift would change.
Dion only made hints of maybe backing off on some things when pressed by the media (without specifics of course) so who knows what he meant.
Message edited by author 2008-10-15 15:51:50.
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10/15/2008 04:49:34 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by Louis:
That's a breathtaking misrepresentation of the Liberals' (now dead) economic plan. And what have you to say about Harper's announcement this morning of a six-point plan for the economy to be delivered within thirty days? From the Liberal election platform: "Due to the economic crisis, a five-point plan for the economy will be delivered within thirty days of a Liberal government being elected." Remember how the Conservatives laughed? |
I vaguely remember talking about the green shift. Obviously you trust the Liberals to change the green shift to compensate for the economy though there was no evidence throughout the campaign that there was any bend available in anything that was proposed by the Liberals. |
Originally posted by Louis:
From the Liberal election platform: "Due to the economic crisis, a five-point plan for the economy will be delivered within thirty days of a Liberal government being elected." |
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Repeating it doesn't make it state that the green shift would change.
Dion only made hints of maybe backing off on some things when pressed by the media (without specifics of course) so who knows what he meant. |
I think one of the major flaws in Dions campaign, was that almost to a tee, every answer from him included the words "green shift" with the economy the way it is (temporary or not) that is not what people wanted to hear... they wanted to here "Look, the enviroment is extremel important, and in these troubling times here is what we (the Liberals) are going to do to make sure that the Canadian economy doesn't tank and that your pocket books remain safe"
what we got from Dion was "... bla bla Green Shift... bla bla bla..." not that Harper really presented a plan, but then all he had to do was point back to Dion's lack of one to gt re-elected... |
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10/15/2008 04:54:20 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by Louis:
That's a breathtaking misrepresentation of the Liberals' (now dead) economic plan. And what have you to say about Harper's announcement this morning of a six-point plan for the economy to be delivered within thirty days? From the Liberal election platform: "Due to the economic crisis, a five-point plan for the economy will be delivered within thirty days of a Liberal government being elected." Remember how the Conservatives laughed? |
I vaguely remember talking about the green shift. Obviously you trust the Liberals to change the green shift to compensate for the economy though there was no evidence throughout the campaign that there was any bend available in anything that was proposed by the Liberals. |
Originally posted by Louis:
From the Liberal election platform: "Due to the economic crisis, a five-point plan for the economy will be delivered within thirty days of a Liberal government being elected." |
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Repeating it doesn't make it state that the green shift would change.
Dion only made hints of maybe backing off on some things when pressed by the media (without specifics of course) so who knows what he meant. |
I think one of the major flaws in Dions campaign, was that almost to a tee, every answer from him included the words "green shift" with the economy the way it is (temporary or not) that is not what people wanted to hear... they wanted to here "Look, the enviroment is extremel important, and in these troubling times here is what we (the Liberals) are going to do to make sure that the Canadian economy doesn't tank and that your pocket books remain safe"
what we got from Dion was "... bla bla Green Shift... bla bla bla..." not that Harper really presented a plan, but then all he had to do was point back to Dion's lack of one to gt re-elected... |
Dion is definitely passionate about his views and policies and has said as much. However, he had the arrogance to state that Harper was not passionate about what he believed in. They have two very different views on how Canada should be run but to say the other does not believe in what they are doing is just plain ludicrous.
This came out in Dion's interview with Peter Mansbrige.
... and rather than tell us why his plan was good for Canada Dion chose to call Harper names and tell us that Harper's plan was wrong or he failed to have a plan. If he wants us to vote for him he needs to explain how his plans will not send the economy into a tailspin. He also kept saying the green shift was not a tax but a cost to the producers. He didn't even consider that the producers would pass on that extra cost to the consumers by explicitly stating that it wasn't a tax at the pump.
Message edited by author 2008-10-15 16:57:37.
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10/15/2008 04:59:11 PM · #168 |
| I didn't see that interview. I'd like to form my own opinion about what he said, but nevertheless, Harper is a bit robotic, is he not? Even he himself said, "I'm not the most emotionally expressive guy." Although an observation of his character and not his platform, it is not unfair to characterize him as dispassionate. Give me and instance of passion coming out of the man and I'll give you an example of Dion going on a ballistic profanity-laced tirade. Ain't gonna happen. |
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10/15/2008 05:00:27 PM · #169 |
| PS: I would be careful of accusing the Liberals of calling people names. What did you think of the Conservative ads mocking his intellectualism? What did you think of the Conservative ad showing a bird crapping on his shoulder? |
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10/15/2008 05:17:07 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I didn't see that interview. I'd like to form my own opinion about what he said, but nevertheless, Harper is a bit robotic, is he not? Even he himself said, "I'm not the most emotionally expressive guy." Although an observation of his character and not his platform, it is not unfair to characterize him as dispassionate. Give me and instance of passion coming out of the man and I'll give you an example of Dion going on a ballistic profanity-laced tirade. Ain't gonna happen. |
Just because Harper doesn't show passion when he speaks does not mean that he doesn't believe in what he is doing.
Dion has looked and sounded pretty angry when confronted with some of the questions from the media and the public so I don't know if he would go into a tirade or not.
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10/15/2008 05:18:30 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by Louis:
I didn't see that interview. I'd like to form my own opinion about what he said, but nevertheless, Harper is a bit robotic, is he not? Even he himself said, "I'm not the most emotionally expressive guy." Although an observation of his character and not his platform, it is not unfair to characterize him as dispassionate. Give me and instance of passion coming out of the man and I'll give you an example of Dion going on a ballistic profanity-laced tirade. Ain't gonna happen. |
Just because Harper doesn't show passion when he speaks does not mean that he doesn't believe in what he is doing.
Dion has looked and sounded pretty angry when confronted with some of the questions from the media and the public so I don't know if he would go into a tirade or not. |
@Louis' latest post: at least that's not all they had in their arsenal. Sure, bad judgement and they were pulled and not repeated over and over again.
Message edited by author 2008-10-15 17:21:50.
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10/15/2008 05:23:58 PM · #172 |
| The Liberals erred when they, as Rex Murphy said, uttered "Stephen Harper" in a sharp tone and expected that to form part of people's opinion. They did good when they ran most of the campaign on their platform, introduced early on (not three weeks into the damn thing, like the Conservatives). It's pretty disingenuous to suggest that all the Liberals had was condemnation of the other side. If you take that view when looking at the entire package of platform, exposition of it, and public speeches, I think you'll find that, in fact, the Conservatives were far guiltier of pointing out the faults of the other guy than the Liberals. |
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10/15/2008 05:31:31 PM · #173 |
Sure, the conservatives presented there complete platform three weeks into the the campaign but what do you think they were running the government with, thin air? They obviously already had plans done and in motion at the time the election was called and the plan was to continue.
Did you expect something different?
And sure, the Liberals and NDP and Greens layed out their platform near the beginning of the campaign and refused to deviate from anything even after the melt down in the US. Yes, the focus of the election had moved on to different areas but don't you think that a clarification of the green shift was in order to appease voters and convince them that in the current economy certain things would change? This would be what I would have expected in answer to Harpers constant opposition to the plan. Did it happen? No.
The impression I get from Dion is that he is not willing to bend in any circumstance regardless of the consequences.
You'll probably say the same thing about Harper but I haven't seen him push through and take a stand like Dion has. To me that is not a good trait for a Prime Minister. Opposition? Maybe?
Message edited by author 2008-10-15 17:34:49.
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10/15/2008 05:41:42 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
You'll probably say the same thing about Harper but I haven't seen him push through and take a stand like Dion has. To me that is not a good trait for a Prime Minister. |
You're kidding, right?
Making virtually every vote in the House a confidence vote, daring the opposition to bring the government down, knowing full well it wouldn't -- especially given the fact that there was a law on the books brought in by Harper himself ensuring an election date? Not allowing debate on any bill in the House with these kinds of tactics? This is not "pushing through and taking a stand"?
Come now. |
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10/15/2008 05:52:25 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
You'll probably say the same thing about Harper but I haven't seen him push through and take a stand like Dion has. To me that is not a good trait for a Prime Minister. |
You're kidding, right?
Making virtually every vote in the House a confidence vote, daring the opposition to bring the government down, knowing full well it wouldn't -- especially given the fact that there was a law on the books brought in by Harper himself ensuring an election date? Not allowing debate on any bill in the House with these kinds of tactics? This is not "pushing through and taking a stand"?
Come now. |
Pushing through what they felt was right at the time. Dion won't even bend when it is brought to his attention that what he wants to do in the current economy will actually make the economy worse. That's what I'm talking about. And that's why I'm glad Dion didn't get the minority so he can push through the green shift come hell or high water.
Oh, and there was debate. Maybe just not as much as the opposition wanted, but it was there.
ETA: Yes, I do think that something needs to be done about the environment just not at the expense of the economy. Maybe Dion can work as the opposition to form a compromise between what he feels is the right plan and what the Conservatives feel is the right plan. Yes, they both think they are right but hopefully there is a plan that both parties can accept.
Message edited by author 2008-10-15 17:55:40.
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