Vista 64, first impressions - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

10/06/2008 12:13:57 PM · #1

Well, I've gone and done it. After coaxing my old XP box along for 5.5 years, I built a new box over the weekend. I used an ASUS "workstation-class" mother board, and the following:

- A rather basic Intel E8500 Core2 Duo processor (3.16 GHz)
- 8GB of DDR3 memory (slightly faster than needed for the CPU, to allow for some mild overclocking)
- Two 80GB Seagate Barracuda HDDs in a RAID-0 array for OS & applications
- A 1TB Seagate Barracuda main storage drive
- A 1TB Seagate external backup drive
- Vista 64-bit OS
- An nVidia Quadro FX 570 video card (not a mainstream "gaming-oriented" card, but rather an entry-level workstation card
- A Wacom Intuos 3 4x6 tablet (first time that I've used a tablet, BTW)

I had a minor glitch with getting the Vista install going on the RAID array, but after that it was gravy. The biggest surprise for me was that I had *very* few issues with drivers. Pretty much *all* of the hardware installed easily and quickly, only once did I need to go to the 'net for 64-bit drivers.
I'm also quite impressed with the OS in general, most especially the broad support for the Wacom tablet. Not only is the tablet useful in graphic applications, tablet support is so well integrated into the OS that it's easy to use the pen as a complete mouse replacement. My son and I both found that with a couple hours' practice we were beginning to prefer the pen over the mouse for most tasks. I actually voted a challenge last night using the pen, and I think I'd actually prefer it to keypad voting if the voting scale were anchored.
We also had a ton of fun experimenting with the pen as an editing and mark-up tool in MS Office 2007. Office 2007 supports use of the pen as a markup device (ball-point, highlighter; make comments directly on the document) or using pen "flicks" for invoking copy/paste operations. Really useful stuff. Why did I wait this long to buy a tablet?? Vista and Office 2007 also both support/include handwriting recognition, but given that I type faster much than I write, that's not a big plus for me personally.
One thing that I was a little concerned about was the video card performance in more media-oriented uses. I tested playback using one of Vincent LaForet's full-resolution 5DII clips and it was played flawlessly, so seems to meet my needs for video playback ;-)
I'll be testing over the next few days using the PTGUI Gigapixel pano stitching test to see how it does. I'll be running it under PTGUI Pro 8.0.2 (64-bit version). Should be the first thing that will really tax the system performance. I'm really looking forward to being able to get back to some pano stitching, which had become really painful on the old box.
I'm also kind of eager for Photoshop CS4, which is supposed to take advantage of both the 64-bit OS and the GPU for speed enhancement. I've played with Lightroom 2.0 a little, and the user interface now moves with lightning speed relative to what I was used to. Just a short delay during rendering of each image when switching between images in the Develop module. I know there are some tweaks to get it to be even faster, and I will (eventually) look at those as well.

I'd love to hear:
- Ideas on what other tests to throw at it
- Ideas/discussion on other Vista features that I've missed
- Comments/questions on the hardware or software set-up
- Comments/questions on optimization of hardware & software

bfox2

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

10/06/2008 12:19:30 PM · #2

Is your external backup drive connected via USB?

If so it might be worth it to get a second smaller internal drive connected via SATA cables and designate it as the Photoshop scratch disk.

I've never actually done that myself and CS4 may change things but I think that was a good way to get the best performance.

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

10/06/2008 12:24:40 PM · #3

Originally posted by bfox2:

Actually, it's connected via Firewire (the drive supports up to Firewire 400), and it does have eSATA capability as well. I've tested the throughput and it runs around 34MB/s on 1394/400 so going from 1394 to eSATA probably will not improve speed much, it's running near the transfer capacity of the drive, and there have been reports of misbehavior of this drive under eSATA.
I do have PS's scratch disk set to the RAID array, the fastest "drive" in the system. The main data drive is the internal 1TB drive, which is of course a SATA-300 drive.

Patrick_R

Canon EOS-60D

10/06/2008 12:34:19 PM · #4

I thought I'd let you know that you can turn off those windows that pop up every six seconds asking you if you really want to copy/move a file over ect. Look up user account control online and its really easy to turn off. It is supposed to help people who don't know how to use a computer but if you know what you are doing turn it off.

But yeah Vista is just fine. lol most everyone that bashes it has never actually used it for longer than one minute and just read in a magazine/heard from the mac fence that it sucked. The reality is aside from that user account control "feature" it beats xp in almost every way once you get used to it. Geting used to it is really the issue. Microsoft changed stuff that hasn't been changed in years. I mean if you've got any of the office 2007 programs you know what I'm talking about. I spent an hour screaming where is the freakin file menu!!!!

As for it feeling bloated and slow. Remember when XP came out? Same thing happened then. Upgrade your computers hardware if it can't take vista and its just fine. My vista machine that I built is.

amd 6400 3.2 dual core
4g of ram
nvidia 8800 512mb gts
1tb hd

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

10/06/2008 12:46:16 PM · #5

I find myself nodding in agreement with Patrick_R. I would never have considered loading Vista on my old box, even if it *didn't* have hardware issues. Lots of RAM seems to be key for snappy response. I noticed that I'm normally running about 2.1-2.3 GB of RAM in use, even with only one or two apps open. I'd hate to try to run it in 1GB.
OTOH, driving RAM usage above 4GB used is actually a challenge. I think for most users, 4GB would be plenty of RAM, but I do see CS4 in my future, and I do stitch large panos and intend to get back to editing video, so I went 8GB.

smurfguy

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

10/06/2008 01:13:30 PM · #6

A note on RAM and 32/64 bit systems - I believe a 32-bit system maxes out at 3GB. The need for more RAM (and dropping RAM prices) will be the driving factor behind moving to 64-bit systems. I've had mixed experiences with 64-bit systems as far as driver support, but it's definitely getting better.

I agree with the sentiment here - I have 32-bit Vista installed with 4GB RAM (3GB usable as noted), and the system is quite usable. CS3 runs very smoothly.

One day I may break down and get a wacom tablet instead of the cheap knockoff I currently own. =)

ralph

Nikon Z9

10/06/2008 02:31:17 PM · #7

Intel quad core 2.4 gHz
8gig ram
750gig drive /
removable SATA drive slot (400gig now)
on usb 1T ,and occasionally 1t, 500gig x3 ...

yes yes yes PTgui 8.02 with the quad core runs blazingly process one each core
a 1 hour stitch (3ghz 3gig ram) happens in less than 10 min now ..
PSCS3 will use up to 4 gig then grinds .. (looking for ps4!!)

CaptureNX2 really no change .. :(

Patrick_R

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

10/06/2008 02:38:05 PM · #8

Originally posted by kirbic:

About time someone agreed with me! lol. Yeah I'm using 32 bit vista and it says 3.5 gigs of my 4gigs o ram is accessible. With my usual internet explorer and windows media player running constantly running its saying about 30% ram usage.

I actually wen vista because I am a gamer. had to have dx10 lol yay crysis on very high settings!

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

10/06/2008 03:09:24 PM · #9

Originally posted by ralph:

yes yes yes PTgui 8.02 with the quad core runs blazingly process one each core
a 1 hour stitch (3ghz 3gig ram) happens in less than 10 min now ..

Oh, that is good to hear. I can't wait to get home today and give PTGUI a run. I looked over the Speed test results page and it seems that the more RAM the better for very large panos, so I should be in good shape. You are making me question whether I should have gone Quad, though :-P

ralph

Nikon Z9

10/06/2008 03:24:36 PM · #10

i have used dual core (XP) for ptgui & was pleased but it would choke after it hit a processing wall (3 gig 'o'ram)
really like the 64bit ...

goc

Apple iPhone 4

10/06/2008 03:32:00 PM · #11

Originally posted by kirbic:

- Two 80GB Seagate Barracuda HDDs in a RAID-0 array for OS & applications

just asking. what's the use of RAID-0 ? very risky and i believe you will not
see any performance boost on this "cool" hardware ... anyways ... one disk
with 250GiB would be fine for os and apps ... considering you backup up your
windows instalation on one of 1TB disks ... i hope :-)

that's it, peace
//
g

Louis

Nikon D800

10/06/2008 03:39:49 PM · #12

Can I ask why you decided on 64-bit? I understood driver support with third-party devices to be atrocious, detrimental to the stability of the OS in some cases. Is this not so? I see that you've mentioned CS4's capability to utilize the 64-bit architecture, but is there another reason? Overall, would there be any benefit to upgrading to 64-bit Vista?

ralph

Nikon Z9

10/06/2008 03:58:19 PM · #13

Originally posted by Louis:

Can I ask why you decided on 64-bit?

memory / large panos require lots of memory
PS4 in 64bit is around the corner - so that as well
i'm frequently generating psd's that are 1-2 gig in size
so memory ... .

yes - i found out that my Printer (Epson photostylist 960) was NOT supported
neither is my slide scanner (Nikon coolscan IV) but they can be attached to other machines

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

10/06/2008 04:06:57 PM · #14

Originally posted by Louis:

A year ago, the driver situation was reportedly much worse than it is today. My one caution would be to select hardware that you *know* is supported. I did Google searches on my desired components to ensure that there weren't any major hornet's nests awaiting me. I did have some hardware associated with my old system that I liked and might have considered bringing over, but it *does* have driver issues. (Creative Audigy 2 sound card)*
In analyzing whether it's worth it for *you* to move to 64-bit, ask yourself if you anticipate running apps that will demand more than about 3.5 gigs of RAM for your anticipated uses. If the answer is "no" then there is no driving need for you to upgrade. One other possible scenario is that you're into gaming, and you need DirectX 10. Most of us are not worried about that scenario.
My personal decision to "go 64" was driven my desire to take advantage of 8GB of RAM to speed up processing of large panos under PTGUI 8.0.2 Pro 64-bit and to accommodate the upcoming Photoshop CS4. Until the announcement of CS4, I was on the fence.

* You can Google something like "Audigy Vista drivers" and you will find a whole boatload of rather disconcerting information about Creative intentionally introducing bugs to disable features in products, and threatening third parties that wrote functional drivers for Creative products. Due to this type of behavior, and the abysmal reliability of two sets of Creative speakers that I've owned, I will no longer purchase, or use, any Creative products, if I can possibly help it.

Message edited by author 2008-10-06 16:07:35.

Louis

Nikon D800

10/06/2008 05:06:02 PM · #15

Good to know. I assume there are significant and noticeable speed improvements in being able to address >3GB of memory in applications like Photoshop. I never seem to notice markedly improved performance version over version on new hardware, presumably because of increased memory requirements. But the potential to have a glut of memory that's actually useable in a workstation is appealing.

10/06/2008 08:31:03 PM · #16

Originally posted by Louis:

CS3 will benefit, but not as much as you'd think, since as a 32-bit app, it can only address somewhat less than 4GB. CS4 will remove this limitation, and Adobe has mentioned that for *very* large files, the gains can be tremendous. I think the example was 10x improvement in speed but that's using 32GB of RAM (Vista Ultimate 64-bit can address 128GB, FWIW).

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

10/06/2008 09:35:37 PM · #17

So, the numbers are in... I stitched the gigapixel pano, and it took 1 hr, 19 min. 19 minutes of that was warping the 340-some 6MPx images, and most of the rest was blending. The blending process was HDD-limited, with the processors running at <10% load. The final 6 minutes or so was saving out to a 2.4GB tiff file, again a disk-limited task. Being able to take hard drives out of the equation would drive down times drastically... but seriously, this was a stitch of over 340 images, and in 1.3 hours!

Jason_Cross

Nikon D50

10/06/2008 10:01:14 PM · #18

I love Vista, and I love Office 2007 for those reasons you mentioned. I have been running it for a while now, and all systems are go. I had a couple drivers that were not supported in 64 bit, so I am back to 32, but I might go back to 64 at another time.

Message edited by author 2008-10-06 22:02:50.

dd1989

Fujifilm x100

10/06/2008 10:57:46 PM · #19

I would NOT turn UAC off, it can create havoc when turned off.

Neil

Fujifilm X-T30

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

10/07/2008 01:27:05 AM · #20

Congratulations Fritz! I'm right with you--I was really fed up with my Mac Pro's consistent reliability issues over the year I've had my Mac, so I ordered a new HP D5000t PC today with Vista 64 and 6 GB of memory.

I've never bought an HP before, sometimes I have PCs custom built, or when prices seem right, I buy a Dell Precision workstation (my last two PCs). But the d5000t seems to have a nice ATX case with 4 bays, decent features, and the price couldn't be beat at around $1200 with an Intel quad 9400. Though I got the lower end video card to replace that myself with something better and more affordable than their option.

I do already have Vista 32 on my laptop, but I don't use my laptop enough to really have formed a full opinion of Vista. I also run Windows XP and Windows 2000 and those work great for me.

I did turn of UAC prompting (but not UAC) on my Laptop--it was annoying. I don't recall the technique I used, but you can do it directly in the registry, or you can use TweakUAC to do it. You just want to put it in quite mode (ie, turn off prompts for elevation).

I am worried about finding Vista 64 drivers for some of my peripherals, but we'll see! I think they did finally release drivers for my most important peripheral, a Fujitsu Scansnap (I scan everything!)

Message edited by author 2008-10-07 10:07:59.

Ken

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

10/07/2008 10:17:46 AM · #21

Hey Fritz, what's a ballpark figure on motherboard, ram, and video card? It's getting time here to upgrade.

Beagleboy

Canon EOS-30D

Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

10/07/2008 10:38:41 AM · #22

Man... kirbic. Could you be my neighbour? I would love to have a resource like you every time I'm thinking of getting a new PC and stuff like that.

Any houses for sale in your hood?:p

10/07/2008 12:28:05 PM · #23

Originally posted by Ken:

Hey Fritz, what's a ballpark figure on motherboard, ram, and video card? It's getting time here to upgrade.

The MOBO was more than I planned. I was looking for the ASUS P5E64 WS Pro, but couldn't find it from a known reputable seller, so I went with the P5E64 WS Evolution, which runs about $350. Ouch. It's certainly possible to find a less costly MOBO, but workstation-class boards will run in excess of $200.
DDR3 RAM is also expensive, although prices have dropped significantly since the Summer. The 8GB (two matched 4GB sets) will typically run about $300.
The video card is available here for $162.