After first debate: Obama, or McCain?

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Prash

Nikon D90

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

09/29/2008 12:50:32 PM · #76

Originally posted by metatate:

Ah, another back and forth thread showing how divided we are !
Most of you have heard of

THIS Happiest Places to Live Study â�¦

but I find it interesting because of the criteria they use to measure happiness and I thought it might be appropriate to post it here.

Thanks for sharing this. This is an interesting finding. Just out of curiosity, I checked the rankings of these countries on the Gross National Income per capita (PPP$), trying to find a correlation, if there is any, between purchasing power of a citizen v/s how happy they are. I was not surprisd to find that 6 out of the 10 countries listed as happiest, also feature in the list with people having best purchasing power ( the source is here). It tells me wealth ultimately is a guiding factor... or is it the other way round: that people become wealthy because they have the freedom of choice, gender equality, and more tolerance? :-)

Afraid this will go off the topic of this thread, I will just stop here:-)

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

09/29/2008 01:02:34 PM · #77

Originally posted by Prash:

It tells me wealth ultimately is a guiding factor... or is it the other way round: that people become wealthy because they have the freedom of choice, gender equality, and more tolerance? :-)

Neither... and both. Wealth does not lead to more choices (good luck finding Saudi Arabia on the happiest places list), and having more choices does not lead to more wealth (Somalia doesn't even have a functioning government, so you could basically do whatever you want there). It should be obvious that people are happiest when they have both the freedom AND the means to do what they want.

Message edited by author 2008-09-29 13:03:09.

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

09/29/2008 01:13:38 PM · #78

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do you support wasting trillions of dollars invading foreign countries, destroying their cities and killing their citizens to make profit for the President's buddies? - Vote Republican.

You mean the dollars approved by the Democratic congress.

FYI, Congress was Republican controlled at the time. The vote was:
Republican 215 for 6 against 2 absent
Democratic 81 for 126 against 1 absent

So, as only a simple majority must pass something, it would have passed congress anyway. The Republican Congress.

Flash

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

09/29/2008 01:22:49 PM · #79

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do you support wasting trillions of dollars invading foreign countries, destroying their cities and killing their citizens to make profit for the President's buddies? - Vote Republican.

You mean the dollars approved by the Democratic congress.

FYI, Congress was Republican controlled at the time. The vote was:
Republican 215 for 6 against 2 absent
Democratic 81 for 126 against 1 absent

So, as only a simple majority must pass something, it would have passed congress anyway. The Republican Congress.

So no money has been approved since the Democrats took control?

Flash

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

09/29/2008 01:27:39 PM · #80

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do you support wasting trillions of dollars invading foreign countries, destroying their cities and killing their citizens to make profit for the President's buddies? - Vote Republican.

You mean the dollars approved by the Democratic congress.

Yes, the Democratic congress that was lied to by the Republican Administration. The same Republican administration who sold the war as a $50B endeavor.

If the Democrats were/are that gullible and inefficient at checking their facts, then perhaps that says even more about them. Or - they were/are not gullible and did check their facts - in which case it means the blame you so eagerly place on the President belongs a bit wider spread.

Regardless, to paint democrats as the "victim" only emphasizes one of their most consistent characteristics. They are always the victim. They are "owed" something for nothing, not responsible for their actions (votes) and anyone who thinks otherwise or expects them to be accountable - is a heartless facist.

edit to add I think your exact term was "jack booted facist".

No, the fact is that the source of information was the CIA, augmented to the degree it supported the administration's case for war by information from other intel agencies. The "facts" were politically spun to support the war. They were then presented as objective when they were anything but.

You're right, the blame does not fall solely on the president. It's beyond the capability of one man, even if that man is the president. His administration shares heartily in the blame; Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice et.al. were all complicit in the deception.

I don't see any mention of any Democrats responsible for their votes. Again further evidence that they are merely victims of the vast right wing conspiracy.

Your portrayal of democrats to be soo easily duped and easily victimized is not flattering to them. I think they just claim the victimization mantle as they have been able to get away with it.

raish

Olympus C-2500L

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

09/29/2008 02:23:38 PM · #81

Why do they call the states united?

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

09/29/2008 03:25:25 PM · #82

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do you support wasting trillions of dollars invading foreign countries, destroying their cities and killing their citizens to make profit for the President's buddies? - Vote Republican.

You mean the dollars approved by the Democratic congress.

FYI, Congress was Republican controlled at the time. The vote was:
Republican 215 for 6 against 2 absent
Democratic 81 for 126 against 1 absent

So, as only a simple majority must pass something, it would have passed congress anyway. The Republican Congress.

So no money has been approved since the Democrats took control?

It's much easier to start funding than it is to cut it off mid-stream. Once the initial deception took place, maintaining the funding for the war became politicized as "Supporting the Troops".

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

09/29/2008 03:30:05 PM · #83

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do you support wasting trillions of dollars invading foreign countries, destroying their cities and killing their citizens to make profit for the President's buddies? - Vote Republican.

You mean the dollars approved by the Democratic congress.

Yes, the Democratic congress that was lied to by the Republican Administration. The same Republican administration who sold the war as a $50B endeavor.

If the Democrats were/are that gullible and inefficient at checking their facts, then perhaps that says even more about them. Or - they were/are not gullible and did check their facts - in which case it means the blame you so eagerly place on the President belongs a bit wider spread.

Regardless, to paint democrats as the "victim" only emphasizes one of their most consistent characteristics. They are always the victim. They are "owed" something for nothing, not responsible for their actions (votes) and anyone who thinks otherwise or expects them to be accountable - is a heartless facist.

edit to add I think your exact term was "jack booted facist".

No, the fact is that the source of information was the CIA, augmented to the degree it supported the administration's case for war by information from other intel agencies. The "facts" were politically spun to support the war. They were then presented as objective when they were anything but.

You're right, the blame does not fall solely on the president. It's beyond the capability of one man, even if that man is the president. His administration shares heartily in the blame; Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice et.al. were all complicit in the deception.

I don't see any mention of any Democrats responsible for their votes. Again further evidence that they are merely victims of the vast right wing conspiracy.

Your portrayal of democrats to be soo easily duped and easily victimized is not flattering to them. I think they just claim the victimization mantle as they have been able to get away with it.

It's not about being easily duped, it's about being lied to by the ONLY "reliable" source. It's not as if the Democrats have their own CIA to check the facts being presented to them by the Republican CIA. Unfortunately, those facts were distorted and biased by the current administration to make the case for war. A case which was made on false, misleading and untrue premises that were presented as the truth.

Flash

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

09/29/2008 03:43:43 PM · #84

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do you support wasting trillions of dollars invading foreign countries, destroying their cities and killing their citizens to make profit for the President's buddies? - Vote Republican.

You mean the dollars approved by the Democratic congress.

FYI, Congress was Republican controlled at the time. The vote was:
Republican 215 for 6 against 2 absent
Democratic 81 for 126 against 1 absent

So, as only a simple majority must pass something, it would have passed congress anyway. The Republican Congress.

So no money has been approved since the Democrats took control?

It's much easier to start funding than it is to cut it off mid-stream. Once the initial deception took place, maintaining the funding for the war became politicized as "Supporting the Troops".

So the democratic controlled congress is approving funds. That's what I said. Gald we are in agreement that this democratic controlled congress since 2006 has continued to approve funds for a war that at least 81 of them (according to dahkota's post) voted for to begin with. The same 81 that are not responsible for their vote as they were duped and too gullible or too lazy to do their own fact checking. The same democratic members who shared party affiliation with some CIA personnel by the name of Plame. Yet you continue to excuse any action by democrats as "victimization". They are not responsible for their lot in life. It is someone elses fault. Someone else is to blame.

tate

Apple iPhone 15 Pro

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

09/29/2008 03:55:16 PM · #85

Can I ask: what is that supposed to mean?

Originally posted by Flash:

The same democratic members who shared party affiliation with some CIA personnel by the name of Plame. Yet you continue to excuse any action by democrats as "victimization". They are not responsible for their lot in life. It is someone elses fault. Someone else is to blame.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

09/29/2008 04:01:05 PM · #86

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do you support wasting trillions of dollars invading foreign countries, destroying their cities and killing their citizens to make profit for the President's buddies? - Vote Republican.

You mean the dollars approved by the Democratic congress.

FYI, Congress was Republican controlled at the time. The vote was:
Republican 215 for 6 against 2 absent
Democratic 81 for 126 against 1 absent

So, as only a simple majority must pass something, it would have passed congress anyway. The Republican Congress.

So no money has been approved since the Democrats took control?

It's much easier to start funding than it is to cut it off mid-stream. Once the initial deception took place, maintaining the funding for the war became politicized as "Supporting the Troops".

So the democratic controlled congress is approving funds. That's what I said. Gald we are in agreement that this democratic controlled congress since 2006 has continued to approve funds for a war that at least 81 of them (according to dahkota's post) voted for to begin with. The same 81 that are not responsible for their vote as they were duped and too gullible or too lazy to do their own fact checking. The same democratic members who shared party affiliation with some CIA personnel by the name of Plame. Yet you continue to excuse any action by democrats as "victimization". They are not responsible for their lot in life. It is someone elses fault. Someone else is to blame.

No, the fact that these senators realize, and you fail to realize, is that it's not practical, politically or logistically, to simply end the war by cutting off money for it. The authority to make the decision to withdraw rests with the CIC.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

09/29/2008 04:03:02 PM · #87

Originally posted by metatate:

Can I ask: what is that supposed to mean?

Originally posted by Flash:
The same democratic members who shared party affiliation with some CIA personnel by the name of Plame. Yet you continue to excuse any action by democrats as "victimization". They are not responsible for their lot in life. It is someone elses fault. Someone else is to blame.

Evidently Valerie Plame was responsible for ruining her own career as a CIA agent, not some A-Hole who disagreed with her politics (Cheney) and decided it would be a good idea to "out" her.

Message edited by author 2008-09-29 16:09:00.

tate

Apple iPhone 15 Pro

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

09/29/2008 04:52:37 PM · #88

So I guess we're just going to speak in nonsense now? â�¦ Because I don't think too many people are going to agree with that spit.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

09/29/2008 04:59:04 PM · #89

I heard right after he outed her, Cheney invited Plame on a hunting trip. She was going to go, but at the last minute her gear got lost by Lufthansa and she had to cancel. Talk about getting lucky!

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

09/29/2008 09:24:38 PM · #90

Originally posted by Jaker:

We are forced to vote for the lesser of two evils.... Give me 4 or 5 strong candidates and I'll be able to actually pick the one that I REALLY feel will do the best job.... Until then, I'm stuck voting for the person I think will F up my country the least, and that sucks.

Problem solved.

Flash

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

09/30/2008 09:55:38 AM · #91

Originally posted by metatate:

You must first read Spazmo99's post above that reply.

Originally posted by spazmo99:

Spazmo99 wrote that the CIA was republican - which it isn't. It is made up of members that are from both parties - probably some independents and libertarians as well. That Democrats had no culpability in the decision to go to war. That democrats didn't have access to intelligence - (I'll bet Biden and Hillary did). Spazmo99 continues "to excuse any action by democrats as "victimization". They are not responsible for their lot in life. It is someone elses fault. Someone else is to blame. " This was the crux of the posting. Continued excuse and failure to hold all parties accountable for their votes - instead claiming to be the "victim" which is characteristic of the liberal democratic mindset exemplified in events from Katrina to Iraq. There is no individual responsibility, only corporate blame for those who failed to save me from myself.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

09/30/2008 10:58:16 AM · #92

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by metatate:
Can I ask: what is that supposed to mean?

Originally posted by Flash:
The same democratic members who shared party affiliation with some CIA personnel by the name of Plame. Yet you continue to excuse any action by democrats as "victimization". They are not responsible for their lot in life. It is someone elses fault. Someone else is to blame.

You must first read Spazmo99's post above that reply.

Originally posted by spazmo99:
It's not about being easily duped, it's about being lied to by the ONLY "reliable" source. It's not as if the Democrats have their own CIA to check the facts being presented to them by the Republican CIA. Unfortunately, those facts were distorted and biased by the current administration to make the case for war. A case which was made on false, misleading and untrue premises that were presented as the truth.

Spazmo99 wrote that the CIA was republican - which it isn't. It is made up of members that are from both parties - probably some independents and libertarians as well. That Democrats had no culpability in the decision to go to war. That democrats didn't have access to intelligence - (I'll bet Biden and Hillary did). Spazmo99 continues "to excuse any action by democrats as "victimization". They are not responsible for their lot in life. It is someone elses fault. Someone else is to blame. " This was the crux of the posting. Continued excuse and failure to hold all parties accountable for their votes - instead claiming to be the "victim" which is characteristic of the liberal democratic mindset exemplified in events from Katrina to Iraq. There is no individual responsibility, only corporate blame for those who failed to save me from myself.

Who appoints the head of the CIA?

The President, in this case, Bush.

Who took the data from the CIA and distorted it to support the case for war?

The current administration.

Who presented those distortions to the Congress and the World as neutral?

The current administration.

Who decided to ruin a CIA agent's career to get back at her diplomat husband who disagreed with the decision to go to war?

Someone (Cheney) in the current administration.

citymars

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

09/30/2008 11:10:51 AM · #93

Originally posted by Flash:

Yet you continue to excuse any action by democrats as "victimization". They are not responsible for their lot in life. It is someone elses fault. Someone else is to blame.

Everytime you repeat this canard, you sound more and more desperate. It's like having our own Fox News talking head on DPC.

eqsite

Nikon D7100

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED

09/30/2008 11:23:12 AM · #94

Originally posted by citymars:

Originally posted by Flash:
Yet you continue to excuse any action by democrats as "victimization". They are not responsible for their lot in life. It is someone elses fault. Someone else is to blame.

Everytime you repeat this canard, you sound more and more desperate. It's like having our own Fox News talking head on DPC.

That's ok. The Republicans have their own mantra -- it's not our fault -- it's the liberal media.

Flash

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

09/30/2008 11:45:35 AM · #95

Originally posted by citymars:

;-]

Message edited by L2 - Continue here.

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