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09/15/2008 01:49:40 PM · #501 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Hopefully they both understand that another country's legal system is none of our business. Despite Fox' sensationalism, all this does is provide Muslims a way to resolve civil disputes (like marriages) within a 'jury' of their peers. Similar civil authority is already offered to Orthodox Jews. |
So do you support a similar adoption here? We certainly qualify as having many races and ethnicities within our borders. Shouldn't we also accomodate them? I think that would be Obama's position. Accomodate, accomodate, accomodate. |
Neither race nor ethnicity has anything to do with this. This is a question of religion and only religion. |
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09/15/2008 02:37:50 PM · #502 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Either he has a sparse record with lots of "present" votes, or he has a liberal voting record. You don't get it both ways. So pick one. |
Actually you can have a sparse voting record, which Obama does since he has only been in the Senate for 3 1/2 years and has missed many votes due to campaigning(so has McCain), and have that sparse record be the most liberal voting record in the Senate during that period. So in fact you can have it both ways, that's simple logic. |
How can you claim a record to be "most liberal" if it's sparse? By percentage of votes? That's a very superficial method. A small number of votes cannot demonstrate such a strong trend. That's simple statistics. You can't have it both ways. Pick one. |
Of his sparse amount of votes since taking his seat in the Senate he has the most liberal record of votes cast. I think it's a fair & logical assessment to say that there is a trend with the votes he has chosen to make that he has shown he consistently votes on the liberal end of the political spectrum. The assessment shouldn't just use the amount of votes but what he chose to vote on and how he voted. Would you consider that very same logic then regarding McCain's 90% voting record in step with the Bush Administration? McCain has shown up for less votes than Obama during the same period, does that mean that statistic is also skewed do to a lack of significant mount of votes? I wouldn't think so but according to your logic it would. |
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09/15/2008 04:50:25 PM · #503 |
Originally posted by metatate:
It’s part of the reason a “centrist” Republican won the R primaries, isn’t it? |
I completely agree. One reason I find it hard to digest the current Obama/Democratic/Leftist rehtoric claiming McCain to be some right winger. He clearly isn't. He is almost a Democrat. Far more centrist than his opponent with a record to prove it.
So - if the Obama camp is yelling about McCain's liberties with the truth...then shouldn't they be characterizing Mccain as a "centrist" to insure their own truth telling? Both are guilty of lying. Now folks want to parse "degrees" of falsehood. Obama may have a claim about McCain's liberties, but not because he is innocent. He is clearly guilty of "liberties" himself - and some big ones at that.
edited for clarification
Message edited by author 2008-09-15 17:00:33. |
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09/15/2008 05:01:52 PM · #504 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Of his sparse amount of votes since taking his seat in the Senate he has the most liberal record of votes cast. I think it's a fair & logical assessment to say that there is a trend with the votes he has chosen to make that he has shown he consistently votes on the liberal end of the political spectrum. The assessment shouldn't just use the amount of votes but what he chose to vote on and how he voted. Would you consider that very same logic then regarding McCain's 90% voting record in step with the Bush Administration? McCain has shown up for less votes than Obama during the same period, does that mean that statistic is also skewed do to a lack of significant mount of votes? I wouldn't think so but according to your logic it would. |
Yes, the same logic applies. I can't complain about McCain's lack of experience AND about his voting the Bush line. I can only pick one. So I pick... voting the Bush line. Which do you pick for Obama? |
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09/15/2008 05:48:23 PM · #505 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Of his sparse amount of votes since taking his seat in the Senate he has the most liberal record of votes cast. I think it's a fair & logical assessment to say that there is a trend with the votes he has chosen to make that he has shown he consistently votes on the liberal end of the political spectrum. The assessment shouldn't just use the amount of votes but what he chose to vote on and how he voted. Would you consider that very same logic then regarding McCain's 90% voting record in step with the Bush Administration? McCain has shown up for less votes than Obama during the same period, does that mean that statistic is also skewed do to a lack of significant mount of votes? I wouldn't think so but according to your logic it would. |
Yes, the same logic applies. I can't complain about McCain's lack of experience AND about his voting the Bush line. I can only pick one. So I pick... voting the Bush line. Which do you pick for Obama? |
Since McCain has less votes this period than Obama I guess there goes your logic from this quote:
Originally posted by posthumous:
A small number of votes cannot demonstrate such a strong trend |
If you truly believe that, which is your defense for Obama's liberal voting record, then McCain falls under the same standard. You can't hold McCain to a small number of votes showing a strong trend and not Obama.
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09/15/2008 07:52:12 PM · #506 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
One day maybe you will see the light.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
"I can see Russia from my house!" |
So what? On a clear night, I can see the moon :O)
Ray |
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... said the brightest bulb in the pack. |
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09/16/2008 08:36:46 AM · #507 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Since McCain has less votes this period than Obama I guess there goes your logic from this quote:
Originally posted by posthumous:
A small number of votes cannot demonstrate such a strong trend |
If you truly believe that, which is your defense for Obama's liberal voting record, then McCain falls under the same standard. You can't hold McCain to a small number of votes showing a strong trend and not Obama. |
That is *not* my defense of Obama's liberal voting record. I have not offered a defense of Obama yet, because you have not offered a coherent attack. If you are going to argue that Obama is uber-liberal, you cannot argue that he has minimal experience. You're basically trying to say that he's a proven liberal and a wildcard at the same time. It makes no sense. I'm not going to argue with a position that contradicts itself. There's no need.
You have two mutually exclusive options: proven liberal or inexperienced wildcard. So pick one. |
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09/16/2008 10:15:49 AM · #508 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Since McCain has less votes this period than Obama I guess there goes your logic from this quote:
Originally posted by posthumous:
A small number of votes cannot demonstrate such a strong trend |
If you truly believe that, which is your defense for Obama's liberal voting record, then McCain falls under the same standard. You can't hold McCain to a small number of votes showing a strong trend and not Obama. |
That is *not* my defense of Obama's liberal voting record. I have not offered a defense of Obama yet, because you have not offered a coherent attack. If you are going to argue that Obama is uber-liberal, you cannot argue that he has minimal experience. You're basically trying to say that he's a proven liberal and a wildcard at the same time. It makes no sense. I'm not going to argue with a position that contradicts itself. There's no need.
You have two mutually exclusive options: proven liberal or inexperienced wildcard. So pick one. |
I'm not attacking Obama but merely stating known facts. I have never argued his lack of experience and actually I was arguing your point that he had a sparse voting record so he couldn't be considered liberal. Flash even stated in his rebuttal that he wasn't talking about expirence.
Originally posted by Flash:
Who said he has no experience? I've heard and read where he has no "executive" experience. He has a voting record. A sparse one. A liberal one. But a record. Most of which contains "present" votes. |
Again, you were able to make an reasonable assessment of how McCain has voted in line with Bush even despite the fact that he has missed a large amount of votes, more votes missed than Obama at the same time. You took a small number of votes that demonstrated a strong trend and have held McCain accountable for his record. I, too, have taken a small number of votes that have demonstrated a strong trend with Obama's voting record and it is a liberal one. You can have a sparse record that is a liberal one, which he does, that's logical and coherent just as is McCain's. The points don't contradict themselves at all unless you take them out of context. I never implied that Obama was a wild card in my assessment, I think I have a pretty good handle on his policies. For the record, I haven't even decided who I'm going to vote for and was just pointing out that I felt there was a flaw in your statement, and still do. |
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09/16/2008 10:53:03 AM · #509 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Again, you were able to make an reasonable assessment of how McCain has voted in line with Bush even despite the fact that he has missed a large amount of votes, more votes missed than Obama at the same time. You took a small number of votes that demonstrated a strong trend and have held McCain accountable for his record. I, too, have taken a small number of votes that have demonstrated a strong trend with Obama's voting record and it is a liberal one. You can have a sparse record that is a liberal one, which he does, that's logical and coherent just as is McCain's. The points don't contradict themselves at all unless you take them out of context. I never implied that Obama was a wild card in my assessment, I think I have a pretty good handle on his policies. For the record, I haven't even decided who I'm going to vote for and was just pointing out that I felt there was a flaw in your statement, and still do. |
Okay, so I'll ignore "sparse" as an inconsequential jab, and we can settle on the "problem" being Obama's "liberal" record. (It may not be a problem to you, but it's a problem to some.) Again, I would like evidence of this. Votes in Congress are yes, no or an abstaining vote. You can vote 100% of the time for slightly liberal bills and still only be a slight liberal. How many "very liberal" bills go to Congress for a vote? I never hear about them. And since whoever is compiling the numbers gets to decide which vote is the "liberal" vote, if any, everyone who compiles will come up with a different answer. |
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09/16/2008 11:09:23 AM · #510 |
| You guys have given a clear rebuttal. Painting Obama as a "uber-liberal" is to simply parrot the fear-mongering the Republican party uses to successfully stay in power. |
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09/16/2008 12:01:57 PM · #511 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Votes in Congress are yes, no or an abstaining vote. You can vote 100% of the time for slightly liberal bills and still only be a slight liberal. How many "very liberal" bills go to Congress for a vote? I never hear about them. |
I concur with your post here. Simply from the vote record itself, one cannot discern accurately or predictively ones actual position as it relates to slightly liberal, moderately liberal, hardcore liberal, or nearly socialist liberal. For that conclusion, one needs to look at histotrical positions of the person being analyzed, their speeches and papers, bills introduced and suported (at both the state and federal levels), the positions of the party they are affiliated with, any projects or specific organizations they donate to and who their supporters and die hard supporters are. For Obama, his supporters are George Soros, MoveOn.Org, Michael Moore, Hugo Chavez, Sean Penn (and many in Hollywood), HCI, NOW, Oprah, Ted Kennedy, Charles Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, etc etc etc. These are considerably left of center people and organizations. In my opinion, they would not support someone who did not have a history of agreeing with their positions or a likelyhood of supporting their positions in the future.
The conclusion on whether Obama is a liberal or not seems clear to me. But you may see it quite differently. |
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09/16/2008 12:40:33 PM · #512 |
Originally posted by Flash:
For Obama, his supporters are George Soros, MoveOn.Org, Michael Moore, Hugo Chavez, Sean Penn (and many in Hollywood), HCI, NOW, Oprah, Ted Kennedy, Charles Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, etc etc etc. |
Also a faulty method. The biggest lefties in that list only supported Obama after the primaries were over. They are clearly campaigning against McCain, not for Obama.
Originally posted by Flash:
The conclusion on whether Obama is a liberal or not seems clear to me. But you may see it quite differently. |
Obama is barely even liberal, never mind leftist. I'd love to see some evidence otherwise: specific statements, specific votes, specific stands, from any time in his career. Let's hear it. Maybe you can make me feel better about voting for him. |
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09/16/2008 12:45:56 PM · #513 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Maybe you can make me feel better about voting for him. |
NJ is already 7 points in favor of Obama. You don't even need to vote and he'll get those 15 electoral votes. |
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09/16/2008 12:48:40 PM · #514 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Maybe you can make me feel better about voting for him. |
NJ is already 7 points in favor of Obama. You don't even need to vote and he'll get those 15 electoral votes. |
Maybe you'll convince me to move to Ohio. |
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09/16/2008 12:53:44 PM · #515 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Maybe you can make me feel better about voting for him. |
NJ is already 7 points in favor of Obama. You don't even need to vote and he'll get those 15 electoral votes. |
Maybe you'll convince me to move to Ohio. |
:-) |
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09/17/2008 12:07:06 AM · #516 |
What do y'all make of this:
OBAMA TRIED TO STALL GIS' IRAQ WITHDRAWAL
"WHILE campaigning in public for a speedy withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, Sen. Barack Obama has tried in private to persuade Iraqi leaders to delay an agreement on a draw-down of the American military presence.
According to Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, Obama made his demand for delay a key theme of his discussions with Iraqi leaders in Baghdad in July.
"He asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington," Zebari said in an interview."
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09/17/2008 12:24:31 AM · #517 |
Originally posted by RonB:
What do y'all make of this... |
The usual. |
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09/19/2008 12:43:12 PM · #518 |
Originally posted by RonB:
What do y'all make of this: |
Yup, sounds like bull to me. And a story initiated by the NY Post, too. For anyone unfamiliar with the NY Post, it is just above Weekly World News on the credibility scale. It also happens to be part of the Fox/Rupert Murdoch media empire.
PS: Back to the original topic, McCain ad misrepresents Obama's tax plan. Again.
Message edited by author 2008-09-19 12:46:27. |
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09/19/2008 12:56:42 PM · #519 |
Originally posted by citymars:
Originally posted by RonB:
What do y'all make of this: |
Yup, sounds like bull to me. And a story initiated by the NY Post, too. For anyone unfamiliar with the NY Post, it is just above Weekly World News on the credibility scale. It also happens to be part of the Fox/Rupert Murdoch media empire.
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I read Fox News for the same reason I used to pick up the Weekly World News while waiting to pay for my groceries; it's a sensationalist diversion from reality. |
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09/19/2008 05:36:23 PM · #520 |
| Too many Media outlets are editorializing the news instead of reporting the facts. |
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09/19/2008 06:58:01 PM · #521 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Too many Media outlets are editorializing the news instead of reporting the facts. |
That's because Avon for swine sells more adspace than issues. |
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09/19/2008 10:45:11 PM · #522 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Too many Media outlets are editorializing the news instead of reporting the facts. |
From an outsider's point of view, if they reported only the facts... there would be a lot of blank pages.
Ray
Message edited by author 2008-09-20 00:42:45. |
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09/20/2008 12:14:32 AM · #523 |
| Yet again I find myself agreeing with Ray and Spazmo.. What has the world come to!!!!! AAAHHHHHHGGGGGG!!!! You know what I think about the media. It's all crap from different points of view. Including the Weather Man... I wish I had that job be wrong most of the time and still get to keep your Job... |
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09/20/2008 12:31:12 AM · #524 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
I wish I had that job be wrong most of the time and still get to keep your Job... |
Too bad DPC doesn't pay you, eh?
j/k
Message edited by L2 - Continue here. |
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09/20/2008 03:25:27 PM · #525 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by coronamv:
I wish I had that job be wrong most of the time and still get to keep your Job... |
Too bad DPC doesn't pay you, eh?
j/k |
Damn that was cold but yet funny! I will get you Yanko!!!! |
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