| Author | Thread |
|
|
09/17/2008 02:51:56 PM · #76 |
Maybe you are, but what about the rest of the population?
Originally posted by coronamv:
Well we are talking about Federal employees and we are talking about insurance currently provided by employers and the comparison.
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
One more note: members of Congress and the Executive and Judicial branch receive government-run (and paid-for) health care -- why shouldn't that work for the rest of us? |
This falsity was already debunked in another thread.
Members of Congress, as well as Supreme Court Justices, can opt to buy insurance through the Federal Employees Health Benefits Plan - the same plan available to ALL federal civilian employees. They pay 28% of the cost of which of several plans they choose, and each of those plans require co-pays, deductibles, etc. |
That's a whole lot better than what's available to the public. |
According to the Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF) and the Health Research and Educational Trust (HRET) ( note: PDF file ), in 2007, employees paid an average of 27.1% of the total cost of all health care plans.
Looks like Congress ( and other Federal Employees ) pay more, if they opt to carry coverage. |
Hello! Wake up! That average only includes people who are getting insurance through their employer. |
|
|
|
|
|
09/17/2008 03:31:33 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Hello! Wake up! That average only includes people who are getting insurance through their employer. |
The average American pays 56% according to the World Health Organization. If you push people further from [employer or government] subsidized plans to private insurance, that already-high average will go higher. |
As usual, you have twisted a figure representing one thing to imply that it represents something else. The 56% that the average American pays, is a percentage of EXPENSES that they pay out of their own pocket ( after insurance coverages, if any ), and has absolutely NOTHING to do with what they pay for health insurance. |
Nice try, but what people pay out of their own pocket *IS* what they pay for health insurance. From the WHO report... "While private health expenses in industrial countries now average only some 25 percent because of universal health coverage (except in the United States, where it is 56%), in India, families typically pay 80 percent of their health care costs as "out-of- pocket" expenses when they receive health care." |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 03:49:06 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Hello! Wake up! That average only includes people who are getting insurance through their employer. |
The average American pays 56% according to the World Health Organization. If you push people further from [employer or government] subsidized plans to private insurance, that already-high average will go higher. |
As usual, you have twisted a figure representing one thing to imply that it represents something else. The 56% that the average American pays, is a percentage of EXPENSES that they pay out of their own pocket ( after insurance coverages, if any ), and has absolutely NOTHING to do with what they pay for health insurance. |
Nice try, but what people pay out of their own pocket *IS* what they pay for health insurance. From the WHO report... "While private health expenses in industrial countries now average only some 25 percent because of universal health coverage (except in the United States, where it is 56%), in India, families typically pay 80 percent of their health care costs as "out-of- pocket" expenses when they receive health care." |
Nice try yourself. Perhaps what you failed to comprehend is that part where it says "when they receive health care". RECEIVE is the operative word. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 04:01:43 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Nice try yourself. Perhaps what you failed to comprehend is that part where it says "when they receive health care". RECEIVE is the operative word. |
Whenever conservatives try to defend privatized health care, DECEIVE is the operative word. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 04:19:57 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Hello! Wake up! That average only includes people who are getting insurance through their employer. |
The average American pays 56% according to the World Health Organization. If you push people further from [employer or government] subsidized plans to private insurance, that already-high average will go higher. |
As usual, you have twisted a figure representing one thing to imply that it represents something else. The 56% that the average American pays, is a percentage of EXPENSES that they pay out of their own pocket ( after insurance coverages, if any ), and has absolutely NOTHING to do with what they pay for health insurance. |
Nice try, but what people pay out of their own pocket *IS* what they pay for health insurance. From the WHO report... "While private health expenses in industrial countries now average only some 25 percent because of universal health coverage (except in the United States, where it is 56%), in India, families typically pay 80 percent of their health care costs as "out-of- pocket" expenses when they receive health care." |
Nice try yourself. Perhaps what you failed to comprehend is that part where it says "when they receive health care". RECEIVE is the operative word. |
Unfortunately, here in the U.S., more and more, it's not a question of WHEN health care is received, it's IF.
|
|
|
|
09/17/2008 04:32:05 PM · #81 |
| Once again I ask the question when did healthcare become a right? Ok Spazmo you say I live in a fantasy world, Hmm where I come from hard work and education grants you certain benefits. I believe in a merit based system you work you get, you work harder you get more. You select a field that people are willing to pay you for your education or skill set then you get paid for them. You choose to drop out of high school or not to persue a higher education then you don't get equal or better pay. Simple. Along with you keep your cloths on and choose not to have a family until your financialy stable to have one and that means a nest egg and the ability to overcome most hardships that may come your way. Most people make the decisions that land them in the hot water they are in. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 04:41:56 PM · #82 |
I tend to enjoy reading these threads, but (until now) I haven't really felt the need to post. I have two things:
1. A response to this:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Once again I ask the question when did healthcare become a right? |
I think it happened around the time that one human being had compassion for another human being, and he didn't want to see his fellow man suffer.
2. A request for  coronamv:
Is there any way you could take just a minute to edit your posts before actually hitting the post button? I enjoy hearing your point of view, but man it's hard to read sometimes. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 04:45:53 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Once again I ask the question when did healthcare become a right? Ok Spazmo you say I live in a fantasy world, Hmm where I come from hard work and education grants you certain benefits. I believe in a merit based system you work you get, you work harder you get more. You select a field that people are willing to pay you for your education or skill set then you get paid for them. You choose to drop out of high school or not to persue a higher education then you don't get equal or better pay. Simple. Along with you keep your cloths on and choose not to have a family until your financialy stable to have one and that means a nest egg and the ability to overcome most hardships that may come your way. Most people make the decisions that land them in the hot water they are in. |
Not everyone is as brilliant and capable as you. I suppose you'd just leave the rest to suffer and die, that's just how you are.
What about those people who have reached their zenith in life with a min wage job at McD's? What about people who have an "oops" baby and see their income drop? What about that baby or maybe you'd have people qualify to have a child like they were getting a mortgage and dictate mandatory termination for those who don't qualify. What about those people who are retired and have their pensions taken away through no fault of their own? What about people who get their job sold out from under them by some greedy CEO and shareholders?
|
|
|
|
09/17/2008 04:46:50 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by freakin_hilarious:
2. A request for coronamv:
Is there any way you could take just a minute to edit your posts before actually hitting the post button? I enjoy hearing your point of view, but man it's hard to read sometimes. |
That'll be the day... |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 04:52:25 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Perhaps what you failed to comprehend is that part where it says "when they receive health care". RECEIVE is the operative word. |
The average excludes those who DON'T receive health care because, well... duh. Of those who do, it's 56%. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 04:53:41 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Once again I ask the question when did healthcare become a right? Ok Spazmo you say I live in a fantasy world, Hmm where I come from hard work and education grants you certain benefits. I believe in a merit based system you work you get, you work harder you get more. You select a field that people are willing to pay you for your education or skill set then you get paid for them. You choose to drop out of high school or not to persue a higher education then you don't get equal or better pay. Simple. Along with you keep your cloths on and choose not to have a family until your financialy stable to have one and that means a nest egg and the ability to overcome most hardships that may come your way. Most people make the decisions that land them in the hot water they are in. |
Not everyone is as brilliant and capable as you. I suppose you'd just leave the rest to suffer and die, that's just how you are.
What about those people who have reached their zenith in life with a min wage job at McD's? What about people who have an "oops" baby and see their income drop? What about that baby or maybe you'd have people qualify to have a child like they were getting a mortgage and dictate mandatory termination for those who don't qualify. What about those people who are retired and have their pensions taken away through no fault of their own? What about people who get their job sold out from under them by some greedy CEO and shareholders? |
Maybe Obama can build a database with the names and home addresses of all of his supporters and distribute a list of all the local addresses at the homeless shelters. Then all those in dire need can come and live with those who truly care. :-) |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 04:58:58 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Once again I ask the question when did healthcare become a right? Ok Spazmo you say I live in a fantasy world, Hmm where I come from hard work and education grants you certain benefits. I believe in a merit based system you work you get, you work harder you get more. You select a field that people are willing to pay you for your education or skill set then you get paid for them. You choose to drop out of high school or not to persue a higher education then you don't get equal or better pay. Simple. Along with you keep your cloths on and choose not to have a family until your financialy stable to have one and that means a nest egg and the ability to overcome most hardships that may come your way. Most people make the decisions that land them in the hot water they are in. |
Not everyone is as brilliant and capable as you. I suppose you'd just leave the rest to suffer and die, that's just how you are.
What about those people who have reached their zenith in life with a min wage job at McD's? What about people who have an "oops" baby and see their income drop? What about that baby or maybe you'd have people qualify to have a child like they were getting a mortgage and dictate mandatory termination for those who don't qualify. What about those people who are retired and have their pensions taken away through no fault of their own? What about people who get their job sold out from under them by some greedy CEO and shareholders? |
Maybe Obama can build a database with the names and home addresses of all of his supporters and distribute a list of all the local addresses at the homeless shelters. Then all those in dire need can come and live with those who truly care. :-) |
Your true character shines like a beacon. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 05:00:37 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by RonB:
Maybe Obama can build a database with the names and home addresses of all of his supporters and distribute a list of all the local addresses at the homeless shelters. Then all those in dire need can come and live with those who truly care. :-) |
Your true character shines like a beacon. |
You mean this beacon....?
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Message edited by author 2008-09-17 17:02:47. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 05:01:42 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Your true character shines like a beacon. |
Did you mean bacon?;) |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 05:09:32 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by RonB:
Perhaps what you failed to comprehend is that part where it says "when they receive health care". RECEIVE is the operative word. |
The average excludes those who DON'T receive health care because, well... duh. Of those who do, it's 56%. |
Yes, but that's not what you said. You said:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Nice try, but what people pay out of their own pocket *IS* what they pay for health insurance |
Now you're agreeing that the 56% the percentage that people pay for the health care they receive, not what they pay for health insurance ( premiums ). |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 05:14:36 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
What about those people who have reached their zenith in life with a min wage job at McD's? What about people who have an "oops" baby and see their income drop? What about that baby or maybe you'd have people qualify to have a child like they were getting a mortgage and dictate mandatory termination for those who don't qualify. What about those people who are retired and have their pensions taken away through no fault of their own? What about people who get their job sold out from under them by some greedy CEO and shareholders? |
Maybe Obama can build a database with the names and home addresses of all of his supporters and distribute a list of all the local addresses at the homeless shelters. Then all those in dire need can come and live with those who truly care. :-) |
Your true character shines like a beacon. |
It's interesting that you can say that, since we've never really had an open discussion about how I treat those in need, what I do on a personal level, how I spend my income, etc.
Message edited by author 2008-09-17 17:18:24. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 05:29:53 PM · #92 |
Presently, it is -- but only if you are in an Emergency situation (badly hurt or suffering from a potential life or death situation). My understanding is that you cannot be turned away at that point.
So if this is the case, why wait until that point?
Originally posted by coronamv:
Once again I ask the question when did healthcare become a right? |
|
|
|
|
09/17/2008 06:33:51 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
What about those people who have reached their zenith in life with a min wage job at McD's? What about people who have an "oops" baby and see their income drop? What about that baby or maybe you'd have people qualify to have a child like they were getting a mortgage and dictate mandatory termination for those who don't qualify. What about those people who are retired and have their pensions taken away through no fault of their own? What about people who get their job sold out from under them by some greedy CEO and shareholders? |
Maybe Obama can build a database with the names and home addresses of all of his supporters and distribute a list of all the local addresses at the homeless shelters. Then all those in dire need can come and live with those who truly care. :-) |
Your true character shines like a beacon. |
It's interesting that you can say that, since we've never really had an open discussion about how I treat those in need, what I do on a personal level, how I spend my income, etc. |
Your implication is that Obama supporters are the ones who care. Since I doubt that you are supporting Obama, based on your argument, you don't care.
I'm not surprised. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 07:04:49 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
What about those people who have reached their zenith in life with a min wage job at McD's? What about people who have an "oops" baby and see their income drop? What about that baby or maybe you'd have people qualify to have a child like they were getting a mortgage and dictate mandatory termination for those who don't qualify. What about those people who are retired and have their pensions taken away through no fault of their own? What about people who get their job sold out from under them by some greedy CEO and shareholders? |
Great questions. My answer would be to take away the free healthcare from the people who have made the choice to live a life of unemployment and supidity and give it to those deserving individuals you speak of. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 07:23:28 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by Phil:
My answer would be to take away the free healthcare from the people who have made the choice to live a life of unemployment and supidity and give it to those deserving individuals you speak of. |
Your compassion is underwhelming. May I ask how you would separate people who "choose" to live a life of unemployment and stupidity from those who are trying to find jobs, but are unable due to poor qualifications (a student forced to drop out of high school to handle a teen pregnancy), disability, specialized training in a troubled industry (airline mechanic), or living in an economically depressed area (Galveston)? My grandfather was fired from Emerson Electronics three days before he would have retired and collected a pension after 40+ years of work (yes, really). Was that a choice? :-/ |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 08:15:14 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
My answer would be to take away the free healthcare from the people who have made the choice to live a life of unemployment and supidity and give it to those deserving individuals you speak of. |
Your compassion is underwhelming. May I ask how you would separate people who "choose" to live a life of unemployment and stupidity from those who are trying to find jobs, but are unable due to poor qualifications (a student forced to drop out of high school to handle a teen pregnancy), disability, specialized training in a troubled industry (airline mechanic), or living in an economically depressed area (Galveston)? My grandfather was fired from Emerson Electronics three days before he would have retired and collected a pension after 40+ years of work (yes, really). Was that a choice? :-/ |
My compassion is justified. Work with them on a daily basis like I do and you'll see. I can tell by your attitude in these forums that you'd last about a week before you'd lose your so-called compassion. I have no problem with my tax dollars helping those who truly deserve it; however, an OVERWHELMING majority of the people on my state's Medicaid program are healthy but UNEDUCATED and UNWILLING to receive any type of assistance that would require them to make an effort. Ask anyone anywhere that works with them daily and see what they tell you. It's easy to make snide comments about my compassion when you have no idea about the situation.
Read this carefully (as I've already typed it) and it will answer ALL of your questions above.
People who CHOOSE to be unemployed and LIVE a life of STUPIDITY should not receive ANY type of welfare. If you'd like I will go through them one by one.
Teen pregnancy? Seriously? Are you aware of the programs available for teenage mothers who are willing to further their education? Heck, are you aware of those that are available for teenage mothers who are spitting out 3 and 4 babies before they get out of their teenage years? I certainly am. We are rewarding them.
Disability? Uhh, are they choosing to be unemployed?
Specialized training in a troubled industry? Uhh, are they choosing to be unemployed?
Living in an economically depressed area? So instead of giving incentives for these people to relocate for gainful employment and/or get an education we should just throw them a free insurance card, food stamps and a check every month?
My grandfather was fired from Emerson Electronics three days before he would have retired and collected a pension after 40+ years of work (yes, really). Was that a choice?
Nice flare for the dramatics there; however, this dog doesn't hunt. That is horrible and certainly not a choice. You seem to be misunderstanding what a choice is and isn't. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 08:18:17 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
My answer would be to take away the free healthcare from the people who have made the choice to live a life of unemployment and supidity and give it to those deserving individuals you speak of. |
Your compassion is underwhelming. May I ask how you would separate people who "choose" to live a life of unemployment and stupidity from those who are trying to find jobs, but are unable due to poor qualifications (a student forced to drop out of high school to handle a teen pregnancy), disability, specialized training in a troubled industry (airline mechanic), or living in an economically depressed area (Galveston)? My grandfather was fired from Emerson Electronics three days before he would have retired and collected a pension after 40+ years of work (yes, really). Was that a choice? :-/ |
My compassion is justified. Work with them on a daily basis like I do and you'll see. |
I think you need a new career. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 08:26:34 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by Phil:
You seem to be misunderstanding what a choice is and isn't. |
I'm well aware of what a choice is. My question was how YOU would distinguish between them, and you didn't answer that question. |
|
|
|
09/17/2008 08:38:54 PM · #99 |
No you can do whatever you want just do it on your dime and not mine. See and you keep saying I have no compassion. You are Right. I do not care for those who are not in my care. What they do is their business until it infringes on me. IE WELFARE! There is no such thing as an OOPS baby. OOPS means you did not take to proper precautions. IE Birth control or Abstance. Again not my issue if you cannot control your urges. What if people reach their Zenith in life at a minimum wage job at McDonald's, then you get back what effort you put into life. That is reality. The great crime you speak of with the pensions being stoled away is true. I cannot disagree that those people who comitted the acts should be punished. On the same note if you put all your eggs in one basket and the basket breaks then your out of eggs. The funny thing you said about the greedy CEO and Shareholders, do you not realize the shareholders in most of these companies were the ones who lost their pensions. Now they did not complain when the numbers were stacked funny and they were making a good return on their investment did they? The simple truth is when you stop making excuses and stop relying on others and start relying on yourself then there is no one to blame when you fall short but yourself. It is easy to sit with no insurance, a low paying job/welfare and say you deserve what I have worked hard to achieve, but the truth is Darwin was right.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Once again I ask the question when did healthcare become a right? Ok Spazmo you say I live in a fantasy world, Hmm where I come from hard work and education grants you certain benefits. I believe in a merit based system you work you get, you work harder you get more. You select a field that people are willing to pay you for your education or skill set then you get paid for them. You choose to drop out of high school or not to persue a higher education then you don't get equal or better pay. Simple. Along with you keep your cloths on and choose not to have a family until your financialy stable to have one and that means a nest egg and the ability to overcome most hardships that may come your way. Most people make the decisions that land them in the hot water they are in. |
Not everyone is as brilliant and capable as you. I suppose you'd just leave the rest to suffer and die, that's just how you are.
What about those people who have reached their zenith in life with a min wage job at McD's? What about people who have an "oops" baby and see their income drop? What about that baby or maybe you'd have people qualify to have a child like they were getting a mortgage and dictate mandatory termination for those who don't qualify. What about those people who are retired and have their pensions taken away through no fault of their own? What about people who get their job sold out from under them by some greedy CEO and shareholders? |
|
|
|
|
09/17/2008 08:46:54 PM · #100 |
To Be Free... is the point not to redistribute the wealth in this nation. With that freedom you can then be anything or nothing at all. See that is the beauty that people who fail to make it here do not see. True freedom comes with a price. Either you make it or do not, but your free to try.
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by RonB:
Maybe Obama can build a database with the names and home addresses of all of his supporters and distribute a list of all the local addresses at the homeless shelters. Then all those in dire need can come and live with those who truly care. :-) |
Your true character shines like a beacon. |
You mean this beacon....?
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" |
|
|
