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09/17/2008 11:07:23 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
Actually, I would agree with you on McCain/Biden but I have a hard time believing that a person who has only been in the senate for 3+ years and campaigned for the Presidency for 2 of those would hardly be considered experienced in pretty much anything. |
Lincoln had roughly the same experience and was out of politics completely for several years before his skill as an orator propelled him to political prominence and ultimately the presidency. You could be a CEO, senator or governor for 30 years and still lack the capacity or wisdom to lead a country. |
Or you could be a skilled orator (you know...the lawyer type) with 3 yrs of senate experience, and lack the capacity or wisdom to lead a country. |
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09/17/2008 11:15:27 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
you could be a skilled orator (you know...the lawyer type) with 3 yrs of senate experience, and lack the capacity or wisdom to lead a country. |
Of course. Point being, neither is a reasonable assessment of qualification. Drop the lawyer crap, though... a background as a civil rights attorney and professor of constitutional law is vastly preferable to a president who tramples both. Of the 10 most popular presidents in history (in order: Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, JFK, John Adams, James Madison and Reagan), all but 3 were lawyers (and all were notably skilled orators).
Message edited by author 2008-09-17 11:32:19. |
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09/17/2008 11:15:28 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Or you could be a skilled orator (you know...the lawyer type) with 3 yrs of senate experience, and lack the capacity or wisdom to lead a country. |
Sure that is possible, but if you listen to the man with an open mind I think it's clear he is very smart and very capable.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
He's the man who believes that women in the workplace are only fractionally as valuable as a man doing the same work. |
To be fair, McCain didn't support a specific piece of legislation to make wage-discrimination suits more painful to employers. But opposing that bill is not exactly the same as thinking it's okay if women don't get equal pay for equal work.
PS: I do agree that he treated his first wife shabbily. However, he is not running on a family values platform.
Message edited by author 2008-09-17 11:22:47. |
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09/17/2008 11:39:34 AM · #79 |
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09/17/2008 11:41:11 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by citymars:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
He's the man who believes that women in the workplace are only fractionally as valuable as a man doing the same work. |
To be fair, McCain didn't support a specific piece of legislation to make wage-discrimination suits more painful to employers. But opposing that bill is not exactly the same as thinking it's okay if women don't get equal pay for equal work.
PS: I do agree that he treated his first wife shabbily. However, he is not running on a family values platform. |
If he supports equal pay for equal work, then why vote against it?
Not running on a family values platform? The Republican party touts family values as central to its beliefs. Besides, treating his wife that way says volumes about his character. |
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09/17/2008 11:48:48 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by citymars:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
He's the man who believes that women in the workplace are only fractionally as valuable as a man doing the same work. |
To be fair, McCain didn't support a specific piece of legislation to make wage-discrimination suits more painful to employers. But opposing that bill is not exactly the same as thinking it's okay if women don't get equal pay for equal work.
PS: I do agree that he treated his first wife shabbily. However, he is not running on a family values platform. |
If he supports equal pay for equal work, then why vote against it?
Not running on a family values platform? The Republican party touts family values as central to its beliefs. Besides, treating his wife that way says volumes about his character. |
Well you know. It's like how... you can be against slavery but still not try to stop it and how you can be against genocide but turn a blind eye... See? It's like... No actually, I don't see. That DOES NOT follow.
Family values is BS. It's code for saying "no abortions and no gay marriage" while providing little in the way of viable solutions for either disagreement. How he can be against abortions AND have a voting history against any legislation that tries to help women PREVENT getting pregnant in the first place is beyond me. |
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09/17/2008 11:52:55 AM · #82 |
YES! â€Â¦ Good insight. =)
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Well you know. It's like how... you can be against slavery but still not try to stop it and how you can be against genocide but turn a blind eye... See? It's like... No actually, I don't see. That DOES NOT follow.
Family values is BS. It's code for saying "no abortions and no gay marriage" while providing little in the way of viable solutions for either disagreement. How he can be against abortions AND have a voting history against any legislation that tries to help women PREVENT getting pregnant in the first place is beyond me. |
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09/17/2008 12:06:05 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Or you could be a skilled orator (you know...the lawyer type) with 3 yrs of senate experience, and lack the capacity or wisdom to lead a country. |
I think that's where people would dissagree...
I assume you view Obama as a slick guy, without wisdom, experience or any substance?
I believe he's a really, really bright guy who does have substance, having lived in Jakarta, Hawaii going to multi-ethnic schools which is actually highly valuable experience. Finishing his studies in New York City where he graduated Magna Cum Laude from Columbia. He also taught Constitutional Law at The University of Chicago which isn't exactly a Mickey Mouse institution. He did lots of community service and went into public service in tough areas.
He's poised, well educated, thinks clearly, does his homework and listens very well when advised (by all accounts). He's seen and experienced many issues from many sides. Probably the best qualifications you can have or need to be President.
EVERY President learns that job on the job (except for, well...you know who). I want a quick learner which I'm very confident he is. Someone who not only sees my point of view but that of others. Also someone that surrounds themselves with bright people...which makes me think how bad a choice Palin was compared to Biden.
Just an opinion but I think she's a mental midget. Even Smaller compared to Joe.
Dad-I assume you voted for Bush, twice? Did he have the capacity or wisdom to lead a country?
ETA: I think who they pick to back them is extremely important starting with the VP. Cheney played a major role...in fact, I think he's the one who was running the country for the first 4-6 years. Interesting that Powell resigned in disgrace with no credibility, Rumsfeld resigned in disgrace, Gonsalez resigned, Rove is history and ignoring a House issued supoena, Michael Brown (Head of FEMA) resigned due to incompetence.
Did I leave anyone out?
Message edited by author 2008-09-17 13:17:40. |
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09/17/2008 01:34:33 PM · #84 |
Just to re-iterate McCain's votes on women's issues. Wait - these aren't strictly women's issues - they effect everyone.
He voted against requiring health care plans to cover birth control (3/22/03).
He voted against comprehensive, medically accurate sex education (7/25/06).
He voted against international family planning funding (3/14/96).
He voted against funding to prevent teen and unintended pregnancies (3/17/05).
He voted against public education for emergency contraception (3/17/05).
And he voted against restoring Medicaid funding that could be used for family planning for low-income women (3/17/05).
On top of all that, he admitted, in public and on tape, that he is for the repeal of Roe v. Wade.
whoops
Message edited by author 2008-09-17 13:37:00. |
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09/17/2008 01:42:41 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Of the 10 most popular presidents in history (in order: Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, JFK, John Adams, James Madison and Reagan), all but 3 were lawyers (and all were notably skilled orators). |
Proving beyond all reasonable doubt that lawyers are best.
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09/17/2008 01:44:54 PM · #86 |
To be clear: I understand fully that the Republican Party trumpets family values (while frequently not living up to them). I almost included that in my post about McCain, but decided it was already understood. In no way did I infer that McCain should have a free pass on his behavior.
As for McCain's vote against a bill that would benefit women, I'm not familiar enough with the content of the bill to say whether this is contradictory with his purported values or not. There may be mitigating factors.
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09/17/2008 02:19:20 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Of the 10 most popular presidents in history (in order: Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, JFK, John Adams, James Madison and Reagan), all but 3 were lawyers (and all were notably skilled orators). |
Proving beyond all reasonable doubt that lawyers are best. |
Biased much?
;-P |
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09/17/2008 02:19:56 PM · #88 |
McCain also has an abismal record when voting for Veterans benefits.
It's odd watching that ticket say one thing and be on quite the opposite side when looking at the facts. |
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09/17/2008 02:29:45 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
McCain also has an abismal record when voting for Veterans benefits.
It's odd watching that ticket say one thing and be on quite the opposite side when looking at the facts. |
That's because the facts don't matter. |
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09/17/2008 02:30:01 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
you could be a skilled orator (you know...the lawyer type) with 3 yrs of senate experience, and lack the capacity or wisdom to lead a country. |
Drop the lawyer crap, though... |
:-) Lawyers are trained to sell a point or convince others to see a point in a particular light, regardless of that point being right or wrong...I think Obama picked that training up quite well. Smooth indeed.
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09/17/2008 02:42:47 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Lawyers are trained to sell a point or convince others to see a point in a particular light, regardless of that point being right or wrong.. |
That description would also fit politicians in general, ad execs, CEOs, salesmen, entrepeneurs... pretty much anyone who succeeds in a capitalist society. Lawyers must be be intimately familiar with the history, policies and laws of the land. They must have the foresight to know where a particular position will lead, effective communication and debating skills, and a willingness to negotiate to reach a desirable outcome. Note that Biden was also a lawyer. You obviously have some personal issue with the profession, but it's hard to deny there are more positives than negatives with such a background.
Bear in mind that the McCain's background highlight is apparently a willingness to remain imprisoned rather than be used as a propaganda tool. The top issues right now are the economy, healthcare, personal rights, and foreign policy. Personally, I'd rather have a lawyer from Harvard wrestle those particular issues than a brave prisoner and an aggressive hockey mom.
Message edited by author 2008-09-17 15:02:26. |
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09/17/2008 03:02:16 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Lawyers are trained to sell a point or convince others to see a point in a particular light, regardless of that point being right or wrong.. |
Lawyers must be be intimately familiar with the history, policies and laws of the land. They must have the foresight to know where a particular position will lead, effective communication and debating skills, and a willingness to negotiate to reach a desirable outcome. You obviously have some personal issue with the profession, but it's hard to deny there are more positives than negatives with such a background. |
Shannon, I have to hand it to you. You are one of a few that can discuss politics with a level head. Jason ( DrAchoo), Paul ( GeneralE), and Fritz ( kirbic) are others that come to mind as well.
As for lawyers...I don't have a big grudge with them personally and have used the services of one a time or two (and was thankful they knew what they were doing).
Honestly, I'm mostly just having some fun in here. A large portion of the vocal membership here at DPC is quite liberal minded and left leaning. I have Rants turned off for a reason - the overwhelming attack mentality of many (note I said many, not all) on the liberal side is hard to watch. Yes, there are a few conservative types that get out of hand at times, but not as many, nor as strongly presented. I ran into this thread prior to 'Rant' status and it's stayed in my most recent queue (on profile page). It's about time to let it trail off...
Will I vote for Obama? No. I can't ever see myself voting for a Democrat. |
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09/17/2008 03:31:12 PM · #93 |
Maybe it's because I'm such an angry left wing freak, but my perception is that there are quite a few "passionate" opinions coming from the right was well. But I sometimes forget that this is a nation of whiners in a mental recession. =) But seriously, I think we all have a good deal to be upset about - especially the left.
It's my opinion that the country is so divided for many reasons - and one big reason is the isolationist, secretive policies at the top. I believe Americans, and humans in general, deserve better.
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Yes, there are a few conservative types that get out of hand at times, but not as many, nor as strongly presented. I ran into this thread prior to 'Rant' status and it's stayed in my most recent queue (on profile page). It's about time to let it trail off...
Will I vote for Obama? No. I can't ever see myself voting for a Democrat. |
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09/17/2008 04:04:58 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I have Rants turned off for a reason - the overwhelming attack mentality of many (note I said many, not all) on the liberal side is hard to watch. Yes, there are a few conservative types that get out of hand at times, but not as many, nor as strongly presented. |
Conservatives have less to be passionate about. :D |
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09/17/2008 05:02:16 PM · #95 |
| If you're concerned about the possibility that Palin may have to take over for McCain at some point, you should watch this video. |
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09/17/2008 05:25:05 PM · #96 |
I just saw a video that I think should be required viewing before people post on these threads. It's almost 19 minutes long, but it's a very interesting insight into the fundamental differences between liberal thinking and conservative thinking. I will also add that the speaker, although he throws a very few jokes in at the current conservative establishment, is very even handed and fair.
Johnathan Haidt on the real difference between liberals and conservatives |
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09/17/2008 06:00:24 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I just saw a video that I think should be required viewing before people post on these threads. It's almost 19 minutes long, but it's a very interesting insight into the fundamental differences between liberal thinking and conservative thinking. I will also add that the speaker, although he throws a very few jokes in at the current conservative establishment, is very even handed and fair.
Johnathan Haidt on the real difference between liberals and conservatives |
Well worth the 19 minutes. Thanks, Doc.
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09/17/2008 06:22:24 PM · #98 |
| Ok, we got a McCain supporter (Ron) saying it was a good watch and an Obama supporter (me) that says the same. Nobody has an excuse now. It could lead to an interesting discussion itself. |
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09/17/2008 06:43:55 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I just saw a video that I think should be required viewing before people post on these threads. It's almost 19 minutes long, but it's a very interesting insight into the fundamental differences between liberal thinking and conservative thinking. I will also add that the speaker, although he throws a very few jokes in at the current conservative establishment, is very even handed and fair.
Johnathan Haidt on the real difference between liberals and conservatives |
Well worth the 19 minutes. Thanks, Doc. |
Great video! I'm very glad I watched it. It's kind of how people say some atheists are as closed minded as Christians. This idea of being polarize and it's a bad thing on EITHER end to be too into your own view and closed to others. Not seeing other views is something I think about a lot, and try not to get caught up in myself, though it is hard.
I think I try to be pretty level headed about politics, and I think McCain is an insult to the republican party. He pretends to have the countries best interest at heart, but from his speeches and voting record, its pretty clear that isn't the case. I'm not even sure WHO he's trying to please. In 2000 I didn't mind him, but I was a lot younger and less informed. Now, I don't see how even republicans can stand by his side. And the staunch support of Palin is even more unbelievable to me. A politician that most of the people defending her, had never even heard of before she was chosen for VP. Not saying it's wrong to defend her, I just think a lot of the support I've seen is unfounded and uninformed. And yes, it happens on the Obama side too. There is just a serious lack of informed people in our country. We take it for granted that everything will be ok, that it will all work out. And that isn't always the case, and if we have some power to get things to go the way we want, we should use it.
This will be my first election to vote in, out of the 3 that I was eligible for. And I am ashamed of myself for not starting sooner, but I won't make that mistake again.
And I know Obama isn't perfect, but I honestly think he's the best choice we have right now. |
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09/17/2008 07:01:54 PM · #100 |
Yup it was a very good video. Very interesting. You can see the ideas he speaks about manifested in this and other threads. Also I really liked the dumbf*#kistan image,LOL!
How then do we bridge the gap in the way we think and relate to each other and how do we foster the dialogue? |
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