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09/05/2008 02:34:15 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
William Ayers, not Myers. |
You two appear to have a lot in common-
Ayers was affected when SDS President Paul Potter, at a 1965 Ann Arbor Teach-In against the Vietnam war, asked his audience, "How will you live your life so that it doesn't make a mockery of your values?" Ayers later wrote in his memoir, Fugitive Days, that his reaction was: "You could not be a moral person with the means to act, and stand still. [...] To stand still was to choose indifference. Indifference was the opposite of moral"
Looks like Ayers turned himself in to take responsibility for his actions, but the charges were dropped due to misconduct on a part of COINTELPRO- "a series of covert and often illegal projects conducted by the FBI aimed at investigating and disrupting dissident political organizations within the United States" (note the eerie similarities to their tactics and those of the current administration). Ayers is now a respected university professor who works primarily on education reform. Is Ayers really a terrorist now? Is he on some no-fly list or most-wanted poster for threatening the U.S.? I seem to recall you being an advocate of forgiveness and redemption. Looks like you're trying to draw some connection between Obama and the actions of one of his associates who was an activist when he was a kid. It's not like Obama actually attended meetings with the bad guys while they were committing the crimes (ahem). McCain was apparently clueless about these guys' illegal activities at the time, yet the mere association is enough to warrant criticism of Obama? Oy. |
Not relevant. He did it, he admits it, he is not remorseful about it. For Obama to knowingly work with him is just one more question mark on his judgment. Since he has no experience or qualifications to go on, this is all we got.
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09/05/2008 03:07:10 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Not relevant. He did it, he admits it, he is not remorseful about it. For Obama to knowingly work with him is just one more question mark on his judgment. Since he has no experience or qualifications to go on, this is all we got. |
You know it just dawned on me that the obvious question being begged, is what experience McCain has? Last I checked he's in the same Senate Obama is. The talking heads keep bitching that being a Senator doesn't count as "executive experience". If we accept their argument, what executive experience does McCain have?
Message edited by author 2008-09-05 15:07:35. |
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09/05/2008 03:17:10 PM · #103 |
Maybe we should compare the education of Obama vs. McCain..
Which makes one more prepared for the challenges of President?
I would think being magna cum laude from Harvard (1991) could easily be argued as more impressive than graduating from the U.S. Naval Academy (50 years ago).
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Not relevant. He did it, he admits it, he is not remorseful about it. For Obama to knowingly work with him is just one more question mark on his judgment. Since he has no experience or qualifications to go on, this is all we got. |
You know it just dawned on me that the obvious question being begged, is what experience McCain has? Last I checked he's in the same Senate Obama is. The talking heads keep bitching that being a Senator doesn't count as "executive experience". If we accept their argument, what executive experience does McCain have? |
Message edited by author 2008-09-05 15:18:17. |
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09/05/2008 03:17:49 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Not relevant. He did it, he admits it, he is not remorseful about it. For Obama to knowingly work with him is just one more question mark on his judgment. Since he has no experience or qualifications to go on, this is all we got. |
You know it just dawned on me that the obvious question being begged, is what experience McCain has? Last I checked he's in the same Senate Obama is. The talking heads keep bitching that being a Senator doesn't count as "executive experience". If we accept their argument, what executive experience does McCain have? |
Depending on the "talking heads" that you're listening too (there are MANY), they could be referring to his State Senate time...not US Senate. |
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09/05/2008 03:17:51 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Shame this country is half-blind/half-conservative. |
How can you claim to love a country where you have such disdain for half of it's citizens? |
Speaking of half - I find it interesting in the way our population is so split, and has been for quite some time. I know we're a fairly diverse country with people of many origins and faiths...but still, how can we remain so evenly divided when it comes to politics? |
It's at least partly due to a split between urban and rural areas. If you live in a major city, you're in contact with foreigners every day, even Mexicans, so you know they're not the devil. You see black people every day, so you know they're not lazy Welfare scammers. You see gay couples and realize they're just human beings who fell in love, not some sort of bizarre fetishists. You see people pushing each other on the subway every day, so you figure it's probably not a good idea to let everyone have guns. In other words, half the people of the U.S. have seen other perspectives up close, and realize that world politics is more complex than a football game, that it's about something more than "winning." |
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09/05/2008 03:21:16 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Shame this country is half-blind/half-conservative. |
How can you claim to love a country where you have such disdain for half of it's citizens? |
Speaking of half - I find it interesting in the way our population is so split, and has been for quite some time. I know we're a fairly diverse country with people of many origins and faiths...but still, how can we remain so evenly divided when it comes to politics? |
It's at least partly due to a split between urban and rural areas. If you live in a major city, you're in contact with foreigners every day, even Mexicans, so you know they're not the devil. You see black people every day, so you know they're not lazy Welfare scammers. You see gay couples and realize they're just human beings who fell in love, not some sort of bizarre fetishists. You see people pushing each other on the subway every day, so you figure it's probably not a good idea to let everyone have guns. In other words, half the people of the U.S. have seen other perspectives up close, and realize that world politics is more complex than a football game, that it's about something more than "winning." |
That's quite insulting and a huge reach of assumptions. |
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09/05/2008 03:23:58 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by metatate:
... the education of Obama ... |
He's a lawyer isn't he? Everyone knows lawyers are excellent at double-speak. He can make a fine speech, that's for sure. :-) |
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09/05/2008 03:26:33 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Shame this country is half-blind/half-conservative. |
How can you claim to love a country where you have such disdain for half of it's citizens? |
Speaking of half - I find it interesting in the way our population is so split, and has been for quite some time. I know we're a fairly diverse country with people of many origins and faiths...but still, how can we remain so evenly divided when it comes to politics? |
It's at least partly due to a split between urban and rural areas. If you live in a major city, you're in contact with foreigners every day, even Mexicans, so you know they're not the devil. You see black people every day, so you know they're not lazy Welfare scammers. You see gay couples and realize they're just human beings who fell in love, not some sort of bizarre fetishists. You see people pushing each other on the subway every day, so you figure it's probably not a good idea to let everyone have guns. In other words, half the people of the U.S. have seen other perspectives up close, and realize that world politics is more complex than a football game, that it's about something more than "winning." |
I'm afraid that's not true. According to the US Census, 79% of the US population live in urban areas. By your logic, the Democrats would run away with the popular vote. |
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09/05/2008 03:28:08 PM · #109 |
Very insightful.
Here in Ohio, it's a mixed bag. Cleveland, specifically, is a decent size city but there isn't the life that other cities have. Although it is considered a Democratic voting population.
As you go south toward rural areas, the Republican signs often pop-up ...
Perhaps this is why Ohio remains a battleground state - the dichotomy of urban and rural.
Originally posted by posthumous:
It's at least partly due to a split between urban and rural areas. If you live in a major city, you're in contact with foreigners every day, even Mexicans, so you know they're not the devil. You see black people every day, so you know they're not lazy Welfare scammers. You see gay couples and realize they're just human beings who fell in love, not some sort of bizarre fetishists. You see people pushing each other on the subway every day, so you figure it's probably not a good idea to let everyone have guns. In other words, half the people of the U.S. have seen other perspectives up close, and realize that world politics is more complex than a football game, that it's about something more than "winning." |
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09/05/2008 03:30:04 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by metatate:
Maybe we should compare the education of Obama vs. McCain..
Which makes one more prepared for the challenges of President?
I would think being magna cum laude from Harvard (1991) could easily be argued as more impressive than graduating from the U.S. Naval Academy (50 years ago).
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Not only that, but McCain graduated 892nd out of 899. |
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09/05/2008 03:36:54 PM · #111 |
OMG that is crazy and frightening - he really is like GWB.
Of course, if you use the ever-crazy logic that is often used for Republicans â€Â¦
that makes him more "common" and able to relate to people "struggling" with education.
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Not only that, but McCain graduated 892nd out of 899. |
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09/05/2008 03:47:56 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by metatate:
OMG that is crazy and frightening ...
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Not only that, but McCain graduated 892nd out of 899. |
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The people of Arizona must be crazy too - John McCain has been relected numerous times to represent their state for the past 26 years.
I guess some people just rise to the occasion.
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09/05/2008 03:49:24 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by metatate:
Maybe we should compare the education of Obama vs. McCain..
Which makes one more prepared for the challenges of President?
I would think being magna cum laude from Harvard (1991) could easily be argued as more impressive than graduating from the U.S. Naval Academy (50 years ago).
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Not only that, but McCain graduated 892nd out of 899. |
And um Jimmy Carter was what 59th in his class of 900. What is my point ... nothing notta ... I am just saying ... ;) |
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09/05/2008 03:52:03 PM · #114 |
But when you compare the men, you compare all facets ...
one might be "Years in the Senate" â€Â¦ another might be Education.
When you apply for a job, they want your SAT score and GPA.
Being re-elected to the Senate because the people of that state like you doesn't make you able to be president.
Personally, I think being well educated and intelligent is something we need in a a President.
Originally posted by nomad469:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by metatate:
Maybe we should compare the education of Obama vs. McCain..
Which makes one more prepared for the challenges of President?
I would think being magna cum laude from Harvard (1991) could easily be argued as more impressive than graduating from the U.S. Naval Academy (50 years ago).
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Not only that, but McCain graduated 892nd out of 899. |
And um Jimmy Carter was what 59th in his class of 900. What is my point ... nothing notta ... I am just saying ... ;) |
Message edited by author 2008-09-05 15:55:19. |
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09/05/2008 03:52:25 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by metatate:
... the education of Obama ... |
He's a lawyer isn't he? Everyone knows lawyers are excellent at double-speak. He can make a fine speech, that's for sure. :-) |
A graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, where he served as president of the Harvard Law Review. He was a practicing attorney for civil rights and community organizations, and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School for 12 years.
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09/05/2008 03:52:38 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
You see, you say things like that and it makes it sound like you've got all the answers. That you have the divine understanding of what's right and wrong in this country. If you really believe that, then bully for you -- go do something about it. But for most of us, the world isn't that black and white. And for you to dismiss out of hand the fact that a large number of intelligent people may differ with you doesn't do your argument any service. I don't think conservatives are idiots. I respect their opinions, even when I may disagree with them. I try to see the world through their eyes. I am sure there are conservatives that do the same, but your vitriol does not paint you as someone who does. It just comes across as someone regurgitating everything they hear on FOX News. |
Pots, Kettles, glass houses and stones.
You say things like "It just comes across as someone regurgitating everything they hear on FOX News" and it "makes it sound like you've got all the answers. That you have the divine understanding... for you to dismiss out of hand the fact that a large number of intelligent people may differ with you doesn't do your argument any service"
I'm sure that you meant to imply that Fox News is biased towards the conservative side. But the truth is that a recent study by Center for Media and Public Affairs (CMPA) at George Mason University ( ref here (note: PDF )) found that Fox News was the most NON-BIASED of all the major networks:,
"Who’s Fair and Balanced?: Fox News Channel’s coverage was more balanced toward both parties than the broadcast networks were. On FOX, evaluations of all Democratic candidates combined were split almost evenly – 51% positive vs. 49% negative, as were all evaluations of GOP candidates – 49% positive vs. 51% negative, producing a perfectly balanced 50-50 split for all candidates of both parties.
On the three broadcast networks, opinion on Democratic candidates split 47% positive vs. 53% negative, while evaluations of Republicans were more negative – 40% positive vs. 60% negative. For both parties combined, network evaluations were almost 3 to 2 negative in tone, i.e. 41% positive vs. 59% negative." |
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09/05/2008 03:53:50 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by metatate:
... the education of Obama ... |
He's a lawyer isn't he? Everyone knows lawyers are excellent at double-speak. He can make a fine speech, that's for sure. :-) |
A graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, where he served as president of the Harvard Law Review. He was a practicing attorney for civil rights and community organizations, and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School for 12 years. |
]
Clearly just padding his resume -- and since when does the President of the United States care about the Constitution? (Oops, I'm falling into the bickering trap). |
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09/05/2008 03:59:11 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by eqsite:
You see, you say things like that and it makes it sound like you've got all the answers. That you have the divine understanding of what's right and wrong in this country. If you really believe that, then bully for you -- go do something about it. But for most of us, the world isn't that black and white. And for you to dismiss out of hand the fact that a large number of intelligent people may differ with you doesn't do your argument any service. I don't think conservatives are idiots. I respect their opinions, even when I may disagree with them. I try to see the world through their eyes. I am sure there are conservatives that do the same, but your vitriol does not paint you as someone who does. It just comes across as someone regurgitating everything they hear on FOX News. |
Pots, Kettles, glass houses and stones.
You say things like "It just comes across as someone regurgitating everything they hear on FOX News" and it "makes it sound like you've got all the answers. That you have the divine understanding... for you to dismiss out of hand the fact that a large number of intelligent people may differ with you doesn't do your argument any service"
I'm sure that you meant to imply that Fox News is biased towards the conservative side. But the truth is that a recent study by Center for Media and Public Affairs (CMPA) at George Mason University ( ref here (note: PDF )) found that Fox News was the most NON-BIASED of all the major networks:,
"Who’s Fair and Balanced?: Fox News Channel’s coverage was more balanced toward both parties than the broadcast networks were. On FOX, evaluations of all Democratic candidates combined were split almost evenly – 51% positive vs. 49% negative, as were all evaluations of GOP candidates – 49% positive vs. 51% negative, producing a perfectly balanced 50-50 split for all candidates of both parties.
On the three broadcast networks, opinion on Democratic candidates split 47% positive vs. 53% negative, while evaluations of Republicans were more negative – 40% positive vs. 60% negative. For both parties combined, network evaluations were almost 3 to 2 negative in tone, i.e. 41% positive vs. 59% negative." |
It didn't take long to find this: //www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_Media_and_Public_Affairs
Originally posted by excerpt:
Media Transparency documents that between 1986 and 2005 CMPA received 55 grants totaling $2,960,916 (unadjusted for inflation).[6] The data reveals that the overwhelming proportion of CMPA's funding comes from conservative foundations.
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Hi Pot, I'm the Kettle -- nice to meet ya!
Message edited by author 2008-09-05 16:00:03. |
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09/05/2008 04:02:36 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Not relevant. He did it, he admits it, he is not remorseful about it. For Obama to knowingly work with him is just one more question mark on his judgment. Since he has no experience or qualifications to go on, this is all we got. |
You know it just dawned on me that the obvious question being begged, is what experience McCain has? Last I checked he's in the same Senate Obama is. The talking heads keep bitching that being a Senator doesn't count as "executive experience". If we accept their argument, what executive experience does McCain have? |
Evidently not showing up for work is John McCain's contribution.
Since the start of 2005, he's missed over 36% of the Senate votes.
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09/05/2008 04:09:45 PM · #120 |
NO!
Did you honestly think there was validity to that "study"? Honestly.
Message edited by author 2008-09-05 16:11:51. |
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09/05/2008 04:12:46 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Shame this country is half-blind/half-conservative. |
How can you claim to love a country where you have such disdain for half of it's citizens? |
Speaking of half - I find it interesting in the way our population is so split, and has been for quite some time. I know we're a fairly diverse country with people of many origins and faiths...but still, how can we remain so evenly divided when it comes to politics? |
It's at least partly due to a split between urban and rural areas. If you live in a major city, you're in contact with foreigners every day, even Mexicans, so you know they're not the devil. You see black people every day, so you know they're not lazy Welfare scammers. You see gay couples and realize they're just human beings who fell in love, not some sort of bizarre fetishists. You see people pushing each other on the subway every day, so you figure it's probably not a good idea to let everyone have guns. In other words, half the people of the U.S. have seen other perspectives up close, and realize that world politics is more complex than a football game, that it's about something more than "winning." |
I'm afraid that's not true. According to the US Census, 79% of the US population live in urban areas. By your logic, the Democrats would run away with the popular vote. |
Check voting records on a county by county basis. Look at where the red counties are and where the blue counties are. I'm talking about voting trends. |
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09/05/2008 04:12:46 PM · #122 |
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09/05/2008 04:20:19 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Shame this country is half-blind/half-conservative. |
How can you claim to love a country where you have such disdain for half of it's citizens? |
Speaking of half - I find it interesting in the way our population is so split, and has been for quite some time. I know we're a fairly diverse country with people of many origins and faiths...but still, how can we remain so evenly divided when it comes to politics? |
It's at least partly due to a split between urban and rural areas. If you live in a major city, you're in contact with foreigners every day, even Mexicans, so you know they're not the devil. You see black people every day, so you know they're not lazy Welfare scammers. You see gay couples and realize they're just human beings who fell in love, not some sort of bizarre fetishists. You see people pushing each other on the subway every day, so you figure it's probably not a good idea to let everyone have guns. In other words, half the people of the U.S. have seen other perspectives up close, and realize that world politics is more complex than a football game, that it's about something more than "winning." |
That's quite insulting and a huge reach of assumptions. |
Indeed it is, and I stand by it. Conservatism, in its most popular incarnations, involves an "us vs. them" "God is on our side" attitude.
For example, "marriage is defined as a man and a woman" makes no sense unless you think that there is no normal, moral way that a man can fall in love with a man or a woman with a woman. It is my "huge reach" of an assumption that if you actually know some homosexuals in committed relationships, you will drop this attitude.
Another example, invading Iraq makes no sense unless you think that... well, I can't think of any way that invading Iraq makes sense. That's a bad example.
Of course, there are people in cities that are blind enough to remain conservative. Of course, there are people in rural areas that are insightful enough to be liberal, but I'm talking about trends. |
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09/05/2008 04:22:05 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Check voting records on a county by county basis. Look at where the red counties are and where the blue counties are. I'm talking about voting trends. |
I understand that -- I work with demographics on a daily basis. But you have to admit that you were making some sweeping generalizations there. I'm just trying to be consistent in pointing that kind of stuff out. |
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09/05/2008 04:24:45 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Of course, there are people in cities that are blind enough to remain conservative. Of course, there are people in rural areas that are insightful enough to be liberal, but I'm talking about trends. |
You calling conservatives blind is no better than HawkeyeLonewolf calling liberals blind. I'm fairly liberal (I live in the second most liberal city in the US, although by the standards here, I'm more of a centrist), but there are plenty of intelligent people on both sides of the aisle. Making statements like yours and Hawkeye's will not help the divisiveness in the country. |
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