Propaganda evaluators - DPChallenge Forums

11/19/2003 10:42:50 AM · #3

I have been a member since June and I also thought that this would be more a site to evaluate good photos and that judging would be done in conjunction with the challenge title. However, many times I see a gorgeous photo that has little or nothing to do with the challenge topic. Do I rate it in accordance with the challenge or do I rate it on it's photographic quality? Other times I see a great idea that fits with the challenge 100% but the photo is really not of good quality. Do I rate it in accordance with the challenge or do I rate it on it's photographic quality? There seems to be no right or wrong way. It is my opinion that since the name of this site is DPChallenge that maybe the adhering to the challenge should be the main part of the decision. However, in this recent challenge I see a picture that I think is very good but has little or nothing to do with the challenge. I have not marked it yet because I am at odds about the grade.
Also, if you look at peoples challenge entries and then look at their portfolios you will find that there are few people whose pictures excel in both areas. A lot of people who do well in the challenges have terrible photos in there portfolios and there are a lot of people who do miserably in the challenges and have great shots in their portfolios.
It is confusing at best.

sonnyh

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

11/19/2003 10:43:55 AM · #4

Sorry for the typos.

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

11/19/2003 10:50:57 AM · #5

Originally posted by sonnyh:

However, many times I see a gorgeous photo that has little or nothing to do with the challenge topic.

The challenge rules state:

While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly.

AmiYuy

Nikon Coolpix 8700

11/19/2003 10:55:05 AM · #6

Originally posted by sonnyh:

However, many times I see a gorgeous photo that has little or nothing to do with the challenge topic. Do I rate it in accordance with the challenge or do I rate it on it's photographic quality? Other times I see a great idea that fits with the challenge 100% but the photo is really not of good quality. Do I rate it in accordance with the challenge or do I rate it on it's photographic quality?

I do as bit of both. It's really important to that it meets the challenge, as that is the main point of the competitions (as Eddy G pointed out). If it doesn't meet it, but is still an awesome picture, then it gets marked down at least 3-5 points to where it would be in a topic better fitting it.

jaimeegrl

Canon PowerShot A70

11/19/2003 11:04:59 AM · #7

As far as scoring goes, I think you have to give considersation to both.

sonnyh

11/19/2003 11:55:47 AM · #8

Well that clears that up. Thanks!

11/19/2003 01:59:41 PM · #9

Originally posted by sonnyh:

I like and respect the fact that you use question marks, where, potentially, some might use a noose. The thing to remember, IMO, is precisely what you so obviously realize and demonstrate: it is a good thing to reserve judgement about facts we cannot presume to have.

Despite the confusion you articulate, I sincerely hope that you'll sustain this attitude in an environment, which, at least in part, may have a will to oppose it.

ScottK

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

11/19/2003 08:55:00 PM · #10

...noose key... ...noose key... Hmmmm, where do you find that noose key? Might come in handy some time... ;-)

11/20/2003 12:10:48 AM · #11

This is an interesting discussing and has come up a lot during this current open challenge. I agree with what has been said by everyone & I have a suggestion. If I come acrss a picture that is great, i.e. shot well, good quality, etc.... but does not fit the challenge, IMO, then I will score it according to whether it fits the challenge first & then the quality. If I score a great picture low b/c it doesnt meet the challenge then I feel compelled to share that so there is some explanation for the way I voted (even though no one knows what I voted). I don;t think it is fair for a picture, great or toherwise, to be voted high on if it does not meet the challenge. I mean, what's the poin then? Everyone would just take the best picture they could and submit it whether it met the challenge or not. Just my thoughts on the subject.

wkmen

Olympus SP-570 UZ

11/20/2003 12:27:35 AM · #12

I agree Rooster.

I started this thread because I was getting a little perturbed by the imagination police the past day or two - - Nobody's met the challenge - - Doesn't anyone have any creative propaganda (or literalisms) - - etc.
I say: reward imagination, reward creativity (which I see as distinct from imagination - and is easier for me), reward technical merit, reward meeting the challenge.

My submission this challenge really has none of the above in abundance, but I went ahead and submitted for on-topic entertainment value. Based on early returns, I predict a score in the 4's, and maybe 10 comments about technical merit, 5 about challenge not being met, 15 about enjoying it anyway. The technical and enjoyment comments matter to me - the challenge ones don't.

11/20/2003 01:34:41 PM · #13

Originally posted by Rooster:

The quality of a topically motivated vote depends on what a voter knows about that topic and on how skilled he/she is at interpreting it. I think it's fair to say that an editor for Oxford U. Press may be quite qualified to deliver a 'fair' vote on 90 % of the entries in the Literalism challenge. An Anthropologist, a linguist or even a seasoned copywriter may be able to do the same, confidently, on the remaining 5 to 8 %. A peasant in Romania together with a welder in the the shipyards of Estonia may be able to understand and recognize what the previously listed voters didn't. Let 1 % remain cryptic, ambiguous and universally inaccessible. If your thinking of the Irony challenge, prepare to search the remote folds of the planet for competence to match the number of empassioned votes that appear to have been entered here so readily.

When you expect voters to judge an entry's topicality without being qualified to make such judgement, what you may see is not 'fairness' (by my evaluation), but a temperament mildly reminiscent of a lynch mob's zest.

This is why I do NOT vote on topicality, unless I feel clearly qualified to do so, which, in fact, has happened on rare occasion. One of the images so affected was jmRitz's 'Dolphins'. Unfortunately, my minority vote and comment could do nothing to rescue its predetermined fate from the recesses of DPC.

Message edited by author 2003-11-20 15:58:20.

11/22/2003 05:27:31 PM · #14

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by Rooster:
This is an interesting discussing and has come up a lot during this current open challenge. I agree with what has been said by everyone & I have a suggestion. If I come acrss a picture that is great, i.e. shot well, good quality, etc.... but does not fit the challenge, IMO, then I will score it according to whether it fits the challenge first & then the quality. If I score a great picture low b/c it doesnt meet the challenge then I feel compelled to share that so there is some explanation for the way I voted (even though no one knows what I voted). I don;t think it is fair for a picture, great or toherwise, to be voted high on if it does not meet the challenge. I mean, what's the poin then? Everyone would just take the best picture they could and submit it whether it met the challenge or not. Just my thoughts on the subject.

The quality of a topically motivated vote depends on what a voter knows about that topic and on how skilled he/she is at interpreting it. I think it's fair to say that an editor for Oxford U. Press may be quite qualified to deliver a 'fair' vote on 90 % of the entries in the Literalism challenge. An Anthropologist, a linguist or even a seasoned copywriter may be able to do the same, confidently, on the remaining 5 to 8 %. A peasant in Romania together with a welder in the the shipyards of Estonia may be able to understand and recognize what the previously listed voters didn't. Let 1 % remain cryptic, ambiguous and universally inaccessible. If your thinking of the Irony challenge, prepare to search the remote folds of the planet for competence to match the number of empassioned votes that appear to have been entered here so readily.

When you expect voters to judge an entry's topicality without being qualified to make such judgement, what you may see is not 'fairness' (by my evaluation), but a temperament mildly reminiscent of a lynch mob's zest.

This is why I do NOT vote on topicality, unless I feel clearly qualified to do so, which, in fact, has happened on rare occasion. One of the images so affected was jmRitz's 'Dolphins'. Unfortunately, my minority vote and comment could do nothing to rescue its predetermined fate from the recesses of DPC.

This is a very interesting appraoch to voting but leaves most of us unqualified to render any decisions whatsoever. IMO, a shot must be appealing to those who are beyond the realm of understanding it on a professional level. Especially for this challenge since the idea of propaganda should at least be somewhat obvious to get it's message across. Of course view points are subjective in nature as are most things in life. I shouldnt have to be a professor to fully understand a picture in this challenge. & the truth is, is it possible for us to really understand, fully, what one photographer means a picture to be? I think there should be some way, thru the picture, it's presentation & subject, for everyone to grasp some meaning from it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this- no one person can possibly be qualified to understand all subjects in life in order to comprehend & then speak intelligily about it. Therefore, we should not put such high standards on whether we should be allowed to do so. Instead, offer our opinion's to the best of our ability and score accordingly. Any other way, I would be forced to opt out in voting on all challenges.

I am certainly not as good at photography as you (ZeusZen) Your stuff is incredible & inspires me to get better. In fact, most of the members are so much better than me (kinda jealous about it all) but I'd rather compete with folks that are better than me so I can push myuself to be better. The process of examining & voting helps me do that.

I agree, philosophically, with what you have said but when it comes to voting and essentailly judging as we score shots, I would have to say that it is near impossilbe for me to say that it can be applied to this process.

11/23/2003 01:10:40 AM · #15

>Rooster

I agree with quite a few of your views: a shot should have appeal; a voter should vote with confidence or a degree of confidence on the picture as well as on aspects of the presentation and topicality, when confidence is there. And no, you do not have to be a professor to understand something. As I tried to suggest before, a peasant or a welder will understand some things better than a professor, not only in an area of particular expertise but also, and especially, in a general way.

It matters little, to me, in this context, what a photographer intended. Again, I also strongly agree with I think there should be some way, thru the picture, it's presentation & subject, for everyone to grasp some meaning from it., although I'd like to substitute 'sense or feeling' for 'meaning', since 'meaning' tends to be elusive. But I think that you've touched on something quite vital to the process and 'meaningful to most of us' in the preceding sentence.

I'm also in agreement with you on the matter of standards. I feel, probably with you, that setting standards beyond the reach of the participants would hardly be sensible. On the other hand, standards that are just 'high' enough to be accessible may act as a valuable stimulant. Equally, those who have set 'high' standards for themselves, should, IMHO, have a place alongside those who do not.

The gist of my response to your initial post, Rooster, is that, at the very least, we ask ourselves, if we are qualified to pass judgement on the topicality of a submission, before we do so. It is, really, a caution I want to offer here, and the reason I feel to compelled to do so, lies in the fact that I have seen very good photos, some of which did not only 'fulfill' the particular topical requirements, but exceeded them, which, effectively, were righteously 'faulted' for their distinguished merit. This, I recognize, is regarded by some as 'part of the process', perhaps, because the process is, by and large, a reasonably fair one. To me, ignorance is never a good thing to embrace, despite its frequency and despite my own capacity of it.

Is it, really, too much to ask of myself to question a habit or zeal or whatever it is that makes people scream murder, when, in fact, we come upon something we do not immediately recognize as 'our' take on reality?

Is it not better to say: "I'll refrain from penalizing an entry for a fault I can neither discern (not being certain) nor substantiate."

The latter stance still leaves plenty of room for an impulsive temperament. We can include our personal impressions, feelings AND uncertainties in the comment field already provided for this very purpose.

Message edited by author 2003-11-23 01:14:19.

11/23/2003 12:27:59 PM · #16

ZeusZen,

Eloquently put! And I think I have more clarity on your point of view. But I now wonder if I have been wrong in some of my voting. Or at least maybe unfair. Especially with the literalism challenge. I do feel that some of the challenges are based on American culture and less broad to the world in general. I think this adds to your point of being careful in voting on shots that may not make sense to the voter or one that they cannot readily relate to. But how can one discern whether it is or not since we do not know who took the shot & where they are from?

I guess it is hard to be fully fair & honest in this voting process especially when considering whether the shot meets the challenge or not. It's an interesting dilemma. Not sure how to proceed now. Any further suggestions?

Message edited by author 2003-11-23 12:30:31.

11/23/2003 03:17:59 PM · #17

Originally posted by Rooster:

...I now wonder if I have been wrong in some of my voting. Or at least maybe unfair. Especially with the literalism challenge. I do feel that some of the challenges are based on American culture and less broad to the world in general. I think this adds to your point of being careful in voting on shots that may not make sense to the voter or one that they cannot readily relate to. But how can one discern whether it is or not since we do not know who took the shot & where they are from?

I guess it is hard to be fully fair & honest in this voting process especially when considering whether the shot meets the challenge or not. It's an interesting dilemma. Not sure how to proceed now. Any further suggestions?

>Rooster

The best you and I can do, I believe, is pretty much to do what you're doing now, which is to follow your heart. If even a marginal amount of images we review here is 'art' to us, we would wish to also treat it as art. To the best of my knowledge art has its origins in religious rites. It appears to have been born out of a need to affect man universally and beyond the very confines of either religion or culture. If this is true, and if there is 'any' evidence of pith and gist in some of what strikes us as 'art', the most profitable stance toward a critical process would be one unconstricted by either prejudice or the kind of social conditioning we seem so prone to. This, I am sure, cannot simply be addressed by introducing a programming device to the site or by a prohibition of some kind in the challenge rules. Instead, some things ought to be left to us as individual participants in a collective process (opinion).

Debates like this one, even the cruder 'sparring of opinions' in other threads, can only lead forward and toward a more open and more diligent collective, as long as it remains unchecked and uncensored. I agree that little can be achieved in a day, but I have faith that much can be done in small increments. While ideals will remain ideals, the will to pursue them can (opinion) only be cultured slowly.

In practice, what this means to me, is that before I let impulse decide which buttons to push, I'd instead weigh the effect of my action in light of what, indeed, I can inclusively deduce from an image itself as opposed to imposing a personal viewpoint onto the image. I also try very hard to avoid to come to an image via its author, the photographer, by second-guessing his/her intend or meaning.

Some challenges do not pose great difficulties with regards to the above. Others (Irony, especially) were so daunting, that the artistic merits which could reasonably be had and recognized from a number of available images, just were precluded by the sheer number of voters who cast a popular while grossly uninformed vote (opinion) without regard or the foresight of closer examination.

The option to refrain from voting a photo down, however, while articulating one's helplessness with respect to topicality, exists for those who see no shame in revealing that a particular reference or connotation was lost on them. This dilemma, IMO, is partly due to the choice of a challenge, which truly taxed the capacity of as many voters as it did photographers.

I forget who said it, but I'm prompted to think of this: 'To be men, not destroyers.'

11/23/2003 07:37:34 PM · #18

ZeusZen,

Your linguistic skills are as poetic as your photography and I agree with you. Subjectivity is always a salient part of everything we do including the process by which we vote. I know for me, this cannot be avoided. Thus i conclude and concur with you in feeling that if our minds defer to our hearts in keeping our opinions and ultimately our votes honest than we cannot go wrong.

It is a rarity that I will score, let's say, below a 4, unless I find the picture utterly gratuidous (there was this one shot with a guy peeing that I just didnt get and was not so pleasing to see). In such cases, I have always left a comment explaining my reactions to the shot. To double check myself, I like to go back and see how I have scored shots and will often rescore after more careful examination, mostly higher. For example, the grace challenge winner, to whom I first scored a 9. After looking at it a 2nd & 3rd time, I liked it so much that I finally scored it a ten. I thought it deserved it.

I find that I have to couple my feelings from seeing it at least twice before I can give it a final vote. I try as often as possible to leave comments for the majority of shots in a challenge. I think I expect it from others therefore should be willing to do so myself.

I am learning a lot from others' opinions and there processes on how they vote & certainly from this thread as we have exchanged thoughts & feelings on this. It's been fun bouncing ideas off of each other to explore the full potential of how we vote and why. Thanks. I know I will keep to heart the things you have said the next time I vote!

11/23/2003 07:51:37 PM · #19

:-)

blindjustice