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08/30/2008 06:44:01 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by RKT:
"that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Health is a big part of life and happiness is it not? Good health care, as far as I'm concerned, most definitely is a basic human right. |
The Declaration says that you have a right to the PURSUIT of happiness - it does not say that you have a right to the ATTAINMENT of happiness. The ATTAINMENT of happiness is, to a large degree, under your control. |
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08/30/2008 06:48:40 PM · #102 |
| Already been discussed so there is no point in arguing the Healthcare Issue. It is your opinion and others that healthcare is a right. It is my opinion that it is not. Neither one of us are going to change our minds on this. I just don't believe it is my responsibility to provide for your welfare. That is your responsibility. Being the second amendment is on the constitution and it is for law abiding citizens what do you feel is unfair or unjust about it? I think people forget the simple principle that a killer will kill by any means and thief will steal by any means. A gun is just a tool just like a hammer a rope a chainsaw a knife or a car. Yes it is designed specifically for one purpose. To kill in the instance of hunting and self defense. People will continue to commit suicide with any form available to them. It is much easier to OD painlessly with OTC drugs than to shoot yourself. Along with being cheaper. Also if your worried about fully automatic asault rifles you should first try buying one. 3 month wait requiring a class 3 stamp and a $200 processing fee. The weapon is then registered to you with a copy of the balistics report fully tracable back to the weapon. Then there is the matter of the cost of the weapon Oh lets say the low end is around $10000 and up. |
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08/30/2008 06:48:53 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by RKT:
"that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Health is a big part of life and happiness is it not? Good health care, as far as I'm concerned, most definitely is a basic human right. |
The Declaration says that you have a right to the PURSUIT of happiness - it does not say that you have a right to the ATTAINMENT of happiness. The ATTAINMENT of happiness is, to a large degree, under your control. |
It does not say the pursuit of life though does it. Unfortunately many find themselves in this predicament. |
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08/30/2008 06:55:51 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
It is much easier to OD painlessly with OTC drugs than to shoot yourself. Along with being cheaper. |
Really? How do you know?
I really think you should test that theory on yourself. |
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08/30/2008 06:57:08 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Already been discussed so there is no point in arguing the Healthcare Issue. It is your opinion and others that healthcare is a right. It is my opinion that it is not. Neither one of us are going to change our minds on this. I just don't believe it is my responsibility to provide for your welfare. |
I don't recall anyone asking for welfare. Personally I would love to have health insurance but can't afford the $500 plus a month it would cost me. Many working Americans are in the very same situation. And lets not forget about all the crap insurance out there either...might as well go without. |
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08/30/2008 07:07:09 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Already been discussed so there is no point in arguing the Healthcare Issue. It is your opinion and others that healthcare is a right. It is my opinion that it is not. Neither one of us are going to change our minds on this. I just don't believe it is my responsibility to provide for your welfare. That is your responsibility. |
Why not, I always enjoy seeing you display your lack of compassion for others who aren't as fortunate as you. Your absolute absence of caring is something you should be ashamed of yet you wear it on your sleeve like a badge of courage. |
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08/30/2008 07:22:51 PM · #107 |
No your spin always makes me laugh. Healthcare for the poor or those who cannot pay for it is welfare. I never said I have no compassion. I states I do not believe it is my responsibility to provide for others. What I choose to do is donate to charities I agree with and help out my family and friends. So no shame on my part. But thanks again for proving my point about you have nothing to argue just blowing steam out of your ass as usual. Hey Spazmo you should patent a way to run your car off your ass. You could then give millions away to welfare!
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Already been discussed so there is no point in arguing the Healthcare Issue. It is your opinion and others that healthcare is a right. It is my opinion that it is not. Neither one of us are going to change our minds on this. I just don't believe it is my responsibility to provide for your welfare. That is your responsibility. |
Why not, I always enjoy seeing you display your lack of compassion for others who aren't as fortunate as you. Your absolute absence of caring is something you should be ashamed of yet you wear it on your sleeve like a badge of courage. |
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08/30/2008 07:23:50 PM · #108 |
Government insurance is Welfare...
Originally posted by RKT:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Already been discussed so there is no point in arguing the Healthcare Issue. It is your opinion and others that healthcare is a right. It is my opinion that it is not. Neither one of us are going to change our minds on this. I just don't believe it is my responsibility to provide for your welfare. |
I don't recall anyone asking for welfare. Personally I would love to have health insurance but can't afford the $500 plus a month it would cost me. Many working Americans are in the very same situation. And lets not forget about all the crap insurance out there either...might as well go without. |
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08/30/2008 07:28:50 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
WHAT HAS OBAMA DONE?
Nothing! Not a thing. Rollcall only, no real record in the Senate or in Illinois. He's a face and slogan with NO MESSAGE WHATSOEVER.
Just CHANGE CHANGE CHANGE.
EGADS! What a loser he is. No substance. Empty suit. Moron. |
It's evident you are reading headlines and listening to pundits rather than listening to the man himself. Did you bother to listen to or read his convention speech. He spelled out many of his goals and his methods to achieve his ends. I can't imagine his road will be easy but I'll say without hesitation that he actually gave me "hope" just by doing so.
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
All those things you whine about Bush? Obama is more so. If Bush is "Dumb", Obama is "Dumber". |
This is an argument so without merit, so easily demolisted, that it is laughable.
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08/30/2008 09:39:40 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Government insurance is Welfare...
Originally posted by RKT:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Already been discussed so there is no point in arguing the Healthcare Issue. It is your opinion and others that healthcare is a right. It is my opinion that it is not. Neither one of us are going to change our minds on this. I just don't believe it is my responsibility to provide for your welfare. |
I don't recall anyone asking for welfare. Personally I would love to have health insurance but can't afford the $500 plus a month it would cost me. Many working Americans are in the very same situation. And lets not forget about all the crap insurance out there either...might as well go without. |
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I disagree. I don't want free health care...I'm not looking for a hand out. You will never change your stance and I won't change mine so this is all pretty pointless.
Like  citymars, I watched Obama's speech this week, I've done a lot of research...and I have faith in him.Yes I feel inspired and have lots of hope that this country can become great again if people see fit to vote him our next president. Heck, I even consider myself a reasonably happy gal now. But things could be much better so that's why I'm voting for Obama. I'm not a conservative nor a liberal and belong to no party. I believe in compassion and kindness even towards those I do not know...it makes me a better person.
To each their own. I just want to urge people to go do that research, be open and informed. This is not unreasonable.
Peace out. I am done here. |
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08/30/2008 09:46:17 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Thanks for proving coronamv's point and mine. Barrack doublespeak on gun control.
The constitution gives the right to bear arms, therefore local ordinances taking away that right would be, get this, write it down: UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Clearly and simply. |
Yet you don't seem to have a problem with, for instance, Sarah Palin wanting to have "creationism" taught in the public schools, a clear and simple undermining of the Constitution. HawkeyeLonewolf doublespeak on religious freedom... |
Actually, not all intelligent design propoents are Christian, so you're clearly wrong there. And the Constitution keeps state out of church, not the other way around. Not matter what people imagine it says. And actually, creationism should be taught as it has more scientific weight that the myth of evolution. But when one local county tried to properly and formally state that evolution was ONLY a theory, the ape-nuts went crazy and started flinging their poop.
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08/30/2008 09:49:38 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Government insurance is Welfare...
Originally posted by RKT:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Already been discussed so there is no point in arguing the Healthcare Issue. It is your opinion and others that healthcare is a right. It is my opinion that it is not. Neither one of us are going to change our minds on this. I just don't believe it is my responsibility to provide for your welfare. |
I don't recall anyone asking for welfare. Personally I would love to have health insurance but can't afford the $500 plus a month it would cost me. Many working Americans are in the very same situation. And lets not forget about all the crap insurance out there either...might as well go without. |
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I could be wrong, but I believe the President, Vice President, member of the Senate and Congress (and their immediate families) all get free "government insurance". Are they on welfare? Maybe they should get off the dole. |
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08/30/2008 10:42:29 PM · #113 |
In the past 24 hours I have seen Barack Obama (last night in Beaver, PA) and John McCain (today in Washington, PA) in person, and I enjoyed listening to both men and their running mates. I'll be voting for Obama. I find him to be an incredibly intelligent person and I certainly have no feeling that his lack of experience is an issue.
I have a lot of respect for John McCain. I have no doubt that he's an honorable man, and the world would certainly not end if he is elected. I just don't get the sense that he's going to be anything more than a 3rd Bush term, essentially.
And I know this is a dumb nitpick, but it doesn't impress me that McCain can't give a speech without being surrounded by teleprompters. Both he and Sarah Palin read their speeches today directly off a screen, which makes me wonder if these are their own words and thoughts, or if they simply read whatever someone else wrote and projected onto a screen for them. Obama and Biden both gave thoughtful speeches without this kind of help. |
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08/30/2008 10:44:14 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
I could be wrong, but I believe the President, Vice President, member of the Senate and Congress (and their immediate families) all get free "government insurance". Are they on welfare? Maybe they should get off the dole. |
Members of Congress, as well as Supreme Court Justices, can opt to buy insurance through the Federal Employees Health Benefits Plan - the same plan available to ALL federal civilian employees. They pay 28% of the cost of which of several plans they choose, and each of those plans require co-pays, deductibles, etc. |
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08/30/2008 11:29:31 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Thanks for proving coronamv's point and mine. Barrack doublespeak on gun control.
The constitution gives the right to bear arms, therefore local ordinances taking away that right would be, get this, write it down: UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Clearly and simply. |
Yet you don't seem to have a problem with, for instance, Sarah Palin wanting to have "creationism" taught in the public schools, a clear and simple undermining of the Constitution. HawkeyeLonewolf doublespeak on religious freedom... |
Actually, not all intelligent design propoents are Christian, so you're clearly wrong there. And the Constitution keeps state out of church, not the other way around. Not matter what people imagine it says. And actually, creationism should be taught as it has more scientific weight that the myth of evolution. But when one local county tried to properly and formally state that evolution was ONLY a theory, the ape-nuts went crazy and started flinging their poop. |
I didn't say all creationism proponents were Christian (although I've never heard of one that isn't). How can I be wrong about something I never said?
The First Amendment to the Constitution states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"...
The "establishment clause" -- Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -- applies to the federal government and has been interpreted by the Supreme Court also to apply to all state governments, keeping church out of state as you might phrase it. |
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08/30/2008 11:49:21 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
No your spin always makes me laugh. Healthcare for the poor or those who cannot pay for it is welfare. I never said I have no compassion. I states I do not believe it is my responsibility to provide for others. What I choose to do is donate to charities I agree with and help out my family and friends. So no shame on my part. But thanks again for proving my point about you have nothing to argue just blowing steam out of your ass as usual. Hey Spazmo you should patent a way to run your car off your ass. You could then give millions away to welfare!
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Already been discussed so there is no point in arguing the Healthcare Issue. It is your opinion and others that healthcare is a right. It is my opinion that it is not. Neither one of us are going to change our minds on this. I just don't believe it is my responsibility to provide for your welfare. That is your responsibility. |
Why not, I always enjoy seeing you display your lack of compassion for others who aren't as fortunate as you. Your absolute absence of caring is something you should be ashamed of yet you wear it on your sleeve like a badge of courage. |
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You don't have to say you don't have compassion, it shows every time you post.
As for your other suggestion, well, I need a gasbag like you to power it, so, once you pull your head out, I'll get started. |
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08/30/2008 11:57:19 PM · #117 |
Hello please put things in the same light... It is a perk of the job to have medical paid for. They are not on the dole. If you don't like the job they are doing then don't vote them in. But it is still a job that has benefits.. So come on quit trying to make it look the same. It is not!
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Government insurance is Welfare...
Originally posted by RKT:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Already been discussed so there is no point in arguing the Healthcare Issue. It is your opinion and others that healthcare is a right. It is my opinion that it is not. Neither one of us are going to change our minds on this. I just don't believe it is my responsibility to provide for your welfare. |
I don't recall anyone asking for welfare. Personally I would love to have health insurance but can't afford the $500 plus a month it would cost me. Many working Americans are in the very same situation. And lets not forget about all the crap insurance out there either...might as well go without. |
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I could be wrong, but I believe the President, Vice President, member of the Senate and Congress (and their immediate families) all get free "government insurance". Are they on welfare? Maybe they should get off the dole. |
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08/30/2008 11:58:48 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Louis:
People like him are happy so long as the candidate can oomph out support for theocracy, denialism, bellicosity, and various and sundry other self-serving and deadly absurdities. |
Originally posted by Louis on 6/10/2008 in another thread:
Thank you for your opinion. Please accept mine as a possible counter to your position. In so doing, please refrain from mistaking my argument as either an opinion on your personality, or an attack against your character. |
How can one be mistaken, when you are not presenting an argument at all? This is obviously an attack on someone's character. |
Actually, it's an attack on a position. I didn't say anything about the warts on anyone's nose, their bad breath, or their horrible table manners. But if you ran in here just to judge my small response to his vitriol as a "character attack", I'm pleased to accept the charge.
But let's see what your friend had to say, and then wonder out loud where you stand on his language. First, he called Obama a "loser" within the first four words of this thread. Now that's seasoned debate. Then, he compared Biden with Jacqueline Kennedy using a puerile but patently offensive image, the undercurrent obviously being that Obama is ripe for the sniper's target, and he tried to pass that off as "satire". Then it was simply gales of derisive laughter in response to a comment involving Palin. Then Obama is a "loser", a "moron". Then your friend's bigotry is revealed with "Oreobama". Then Obama is a puppet. Then someone's wife should be "corrected". Then he called someone's intellect and reading skills into question for exposing his hypocrisy. Then Obama is "Brak Hussein Osama". Then he is an "empty suit, empty mind, empty character". His bigotry is further revealed when he calls The Trinity United Church of Christ "a front for black social change in the guise of a Christian church" (later backpedaling rather lamely). Then Roman Catholicism is not Christian. Then, scientists and others who understand evolution are feces-flinging sub-humans.
All served up with exactly zero substantiating evidence -- as if you could provide evidence for why Barack Obama deserves to be called "Oreobama".
Align yourself with the views of, or defend this sort of individual if you like. I for one make no apologies for feeling revulsion at this kind of spectacle. He assuredly deserves ridicule of the highest order. Whether he is a good father, a good driver, a good baker, I could care less. He has shown his character in this thread -- as have you, as have I, as have all the respondents -- and in my estimation his character is flawed, his views vile. If this admission is tantamount to a character attack from your point of view, then I happily stand so accused.
Message edited by author 2008-08-31 00:05:29. |
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08/30/2008 11:59:47 PM · #119 |
They all have their speeches prepaired by a professional speech righter directed by their campaign. Some people are better at reading it and not appearing to look at a teleprompter..
mis-type error fix
Originally posted by alanfreed:
In the past 24 hours I have seen Barack Obama (last night in Beaver, PA) and John McCain (today in Washington, PA) in person, and I enjoyed listening to both men and their running mates. I'll be voting for Obama. I find him to be an incredibly intelligent person and I certainly have no feeling that his lack of experience is an issue.
I have a lot of respect for John McCain. I have no doubt that he's an honorable man, and the world would certainly not end if he is elected. I just don't get the sense that he's going to be anything more than a 3rd Bush term, essentially.
And I know this is a dumb nitpick, but it doesn't impress me that McCain can't give a speech without being surrounded by teleprompters. Both he and Sarah Palin read their speeches today directly off a screen, which makes me wonder if these are their own words and thoughts, or if they simply read whatever someone else wrote and projected onto a screen for them. Obama and Biden both gave thoughtful speeches without this kind of help. |
Message edited by author 2008-08-31 00:06:07. |
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08/31/2008 12:01:40 AM · #120 |
So you have nothing to respond to about the opposition of Obama to the Second Admendment? Not suprisid to tell the truth..
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
No your spin always makes me laugh. Healthcare for the poor or those who cannot pay for it is welfare. I never said I have no compassion. I states I do not believe it is my responsibility to provide for others. What I choose to do is donate to charities I agree with and help out my family and friends. So no shame on my part. But thanks again for proving my point about you have nothing to argue just blowing steam out of your ass as usual. Hey Spazmo you should patent a way to run your car off your ass. You could then give millions away to welfare!
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Already been discussed so there is no point in arguing the Healthcare Issue. It is your opinion and others that healthcare is a right. It is my opinion that it is not. Neither one of us are going to change our minds on this. I just don't believe it is my responsibility to provide for your welfare. That is your responsibility. |
Why not, I always enjoy seeing you display your lack of compassion for others who aren't as fortunate as you. Your absolute absence of caring is something you should be ashamed of yet you wear it on your sleeve like a badge of courage. |
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You don't have to say you don't have compassion, it shows every time you post.
As for your other suggestion, well, I need a gasbag like you to power it, so, once you pull your head out, I'll get started. |
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08/31/2008 12:05:29 AM · #121 |
Well I actually agree with enough of the Redirection stick to the arguement at hand. Calling someone an idiot just proves you have nothing left to argue... and We are all guilty of it...
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Louis:
People like him are happy so long as the candidate can oomph out support for theocracy, denialism, bellicosity, and various and sundry other self-serving and deadly absurdities. |
Originally posted by Louis on 6/10/2008 in another thread:
Thank you for your opinion. Please accept mine as a possible counter to your position. In so doing, please refrain from mistaking my argument as either an opinion on your personality, or an attack against your character. |
How can one be mistaken, when you are not presenting an argument at all? This is obviously an attack on someone's character. |
Actually, it's an attack on a position. I didn't say anything about the warts on anyone's nose, their bad breath, or their horrible table manners. But if you ran in here just to judge my small response to his vitriol as a "character attack", I'm pleased to accept the charge.
But let's see what your friend had to say, and then wonder out loud where you stand on his language. First, he called Obama a "loser" within the first four words of this thread. Now that's seasoned debate. Then, he compared Biden with Jacqueline Kennedy using a puerile but patently offensive image, the undercurrent obviously being that Obama is ripe for the sniper's target, and he tried to pass that off as "satire". Then it was simply gales of derisive laughter in response to a comment involving Palin. Then Obama is a "loser", a "moron". Then your friend's bigotry is revealed with "Oreobama". Then Obama is a puppet. Then someone's wife should be "corrected". Then he called someone's intellect and reading skills into question for exposing his hypocrisy. Then Obama is "Brak Hussein Osama". Then he is an "empty suit, empty mind, empty character". His bigotry is further revealed when he calls The Trinity United Church of Christ "a front for black social change in the guise of a Christian church" (later backpedaling rather lamely). Then Roman Catholicism is not Christian.
All served up with exactly zero substantiating evidence -- as if you could provide evidence for why Barack Obama deserves to be called "Oreobama".
Align yourself with the views of, or defend this sort of individual if you like. I for one make no apologies for feeling revulsion at this kind of spectacle. He assuredly deserves ridicule of the highest order. Whether he is a good father, a good driver, a good baker, I could care less. He has shown his character in this thread -- as have you, as have I, as have all the respondents -- and in my estimation his character is flawed, his views vile. If this admission is tantamount to a character attack from your point of view, then I happily stand so accused. |
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08/31/2008 12:07:07 AM · #122 |
So does anyone what to argue that Obama is bad for the Second amendment?
Message edited by author 2008-08-31 00:07:18. |
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08/31/2008 12:09:22 AM · #123 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
They all have their speeches prepaired by a professional speech righter directed by their campaign. Some people are better at reading it and not appearing to look at a teleprompter..
mis-type error fix |
You might want to fix the OTHER error.
Message edited by author 2008-08-31 00:10:22. |
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08/31/2008 12:10:02 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Well I actually agree with enough of the Redirection stick to the arguement at hand. Calling someone an idiot just proves you have nothing left to argue... and We are all guilty of it... |
Actually, we are not all guilty of it. A very few are guilty of provocatively fanning the flames of discord for reasons unknown, and a few others are guilty of getting upset about it. Exactly one is guilty of the most unreasonable and patently offensive adolescent behaviour imaginable. This thread is not a debate, despite how Ron has tried to spin it, and there's no amount of arguing at all going on in here. This is a silly, adolescent shouting match instigated by a provacateur, and unworthy of its participants. |
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08/31/2008 12:27:57 AM · #125 |
Nope, couldn't care less about the 2nd Amendment.
Originally posted by coronamv:
So you have nothing to respond to about the opposition of Obama to the Second Admendment? Not suprisid to tell the truth..
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
No your spin always makes me laugh. Healthcare for the poor or those who cannot pay for it is welfare. I never said I have no compassion. I states I do not believe it is my responsibility to provide for others. What I choose to do is donate to charities I agree with and help out my family and friends. So no shame on my part. But thanks again for proving my point about you have nothing to argue just blowing steam out of your ass as usual. Hey Spazmo you should patent a way to run your car off your ass. You could then give millions away to welfare!
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Already been discussed so there is no point in arguing the Healthcare Issue. It is your opinion and others that healthcare is a right. It is my opinion that it is not. Neither one of us are going to change our minds on this. I just don't believe it is my responsibility to provide for your welfare. That is your responsibility. |
Why not, I always enjoy seeing you display your lack of compassion for others who aren't as fortunate as you. Your absolute absence of caring is something you should be ashamed of yet you wear it on your sleeve like a badge of courage. |
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You don't have to say you don't have compassion, it shows every time you post.
As for your other suggestion, well, I need a gasbag like you to power it, so, once you pull your head out, I'll get started. |
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