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08/21/2008 02:13:26 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
From my point of view I tend to agree that this poll doesn't reflect reality.. assuming that the respondents did answer truthfully and continued to and were asked if they worshiped God or lived their lives in a Godly way the numbers would plummet. Believing in God doesn't necessarily mean that they behave accordingly or make their decision by seeking God's will for their lives. Even Satan believes in God. Satanists believe in God. I think it also shows that on the west coast there is less inhibition against diversity of opinion and more acceptance of differing opinions. I don't think most are necessarily lieing but simply giving a default answer because most haven't even considered the question in any depth. |
So very true. I know before I was saved my wife (friend at the time) asked if I believed in God, I said "well I guess so, I have no reason NOT to believe in Him". But that didn't mean I was living in His ways (I was WAY out of them actually) or even doing anything about finding out about Him. I now have no doubt God exists and do try and live my life to please Him but like all others, I make mistakes.
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Is it me or does it seem like that a LOT of (former Christian) atheists were brought up Catholic? My only religious affiliation would have to be Catholic (as a child) but I never went to church much except for Sunday school when I was very young. I decided that there was no God after attending a Catholic Mass because I just thought it was ridiculous the way it was conducted. Stand, Sit, Kneel, responsive prayers. It just seemed so artificial and ceremonious that I thought this can't be what God wants from us: this is just a bunch of made up crap. It wasn't until years and years later that I was saved. I realized that just because some people worshiped God this way didn't mean that God didn't exist but just that they (the people) had it wrong what God wanted from them. |
Also I think I heard somewhere that more often if a child that is raised in a strong Catholic household steps away from the church and his beliefs he is less likely to return to Catholicism, where as others like Christians tend to return to their roots more easily and some wouldn't ever dream of stepping away from it at all. |
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08/21/2008 02:17:02 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by sabphoto:
Also I think I heard somewhere that more often if a child that is raised in a strong Catholic household steps away from the church and his beliefs he is less likely to return to Catholicism, where as others like Christians tend to return to their roots more easily and some wouldn't ever dream of stepping away from it at all. |
You heard that "somewhere" did you? I don't suppose you'd care to cite this claim? |
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08/21/2008 02:19:25 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
It just seemed so artificial and ceremonious that I thought this can't be what God wants from us: this is just a bunch of made up crap. |
That's just it: you start with your own imagined assumptions of what "God wants" based upon what YOU personally think should be "right," and reject everything else as made up crap. I don't even know what my closest relatives want, let alone an invisible, intangible deity that would want his chosen ones to build an engineering impossibility to save themselves from a global disaster that defies physics rather than simply willing the bad guys away. The funny thing is that each religion assumes the others are, to varying degrees, made up crap yet shun the idea that it could ALL be made up crap... exactly as they already regard every other religion that preceded their own.
Message edited by author 2008-08-21 14:22:14. |
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08/21/2008 02:19:35 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by sabphoto:
Also I think I heard somewhere that more often if a child that is raised in a strong Catholic household steps away from the church and his beliefs he is less likely to return to Catholicism, where as others like Christians tend to return to their roots more easily and some wouldn't ever dream of stepping away from it at all. |
I really wasn't singling out catholics but it does seem to me that a LOT of atheists were former catholics. Just wondering if that rings true with others. |
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08/21/2008 02:22:04 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
[I am not anti-catholic. Most of my family are catholic. I just don't think that the way they worship is really what God wants from them. |
I'm certain that Catholics think your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Wiccans think that your form of worship is not what God(dess) wants from you. I'm certain that Muslims think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Hindus think that your form of worship is not what God(s) want(s) from you. I'm certain that pagans (would) think that your form of worship is not what God(s) want(s) from you. I'm certain that Native Americans think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Jews think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that John Frumists think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. Etc. etc. ad nauseum. |
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08/21/2008 02:25:22 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Is it me or does it seem like that a LOT of (former Christian) atheists were brought up Catholic? |
Originally posted by Louis:
Is it just me, or does it seem that most fundamentalist Christians are routinely anti-Catholic? |
Originally posted by citymars:
I know a lot of self-proclaimed "former Catholics." I've also heard many fundamentalist Christians refer to Catholicism as a "Mary cult." |
I know quite a few "Recovering" Catholics myself.......I'm fond of accusing the Cathlic church of being the world's largest, longest-lived terrorist organization.
I know so many people that have social dysfunction issues directly attributable to their Catholic upbringing.
I can't tell you how many horror stories I've heard, seen in the news......
As  dponlyme mentioned, I found a home in a Unitarian Universalist church.....we have people of many beliefs, or none, as far as a God thing goes.
An interesting subject came up last week during the service.....Christian UUs.
Those people who believe in the lessons, teachings, and actions of the pre-Easter Jesus, rather than the deity/post-Easter, Died-for-our-sins & salvation Jesus.
I'm kind of in that camp, personally.........most strict Christians that I've expressed that belief to have pretty much looked at me like an alien, though.....8>)
Oh.....yeah, I believe in God, and I believe that relationship is personal based on what I believe that he/she wants from me as to the kind of life I live, not how I can tell someone else how to be.
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08/21/2008 02:26:26 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
it does seem to me that a LOT of atheists were former catholics. |
Personally, I don't know of any, but given that Catholicism represents the largest pool of Christians by far, wouldn't you EXPECT most converts (to any alternate belief) to be former Catholics? |
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08/21/2008 02:28:35 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
It just seemed so artificial and ceremonious that I thought this can't be what God wants from us: this is just a bunch of made up crap. |
That's just it: you start with your own imagined assumptions of what "God wants" based upon what YOU personally think should be "right," and reject everything else as made up crap. I don't even know what my closest relatives want, let alone an invisible, intangible deity that would want his chosen ones build an engineering impossibility to save themselves from a global disaster that defies physics rather than simply willing the bad guys away. The funny thing is that each religion assumes the others are, to varying degrees, made up crap yet shun the idea that it could ALL be made up crap... exactly as they already regard every other religion that preceded their own. |
While I think you have a semi-valid point here you lost me in the middle with the global disaster stuff. To me it is disputable what God wants from us in the form of worship but I am convinced of the reality of God's existence for reasons that have nothing to do with any particular church or form of worship. I can fully understand why you are not. |
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08/21/2008 02:30:05 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
[I am not anti-catholic. Most of my family are catholic. I just don't think that the way they worship is really what God wants from them. |
I'm certain that Catholics think your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Wiccans think that your form of worship is not what God(dess) wants from you. I'm certain that Muslims think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Hindus think that your form of worship is not what God(s) want(s) from you. I'm certain that pagans (would) think that your form of worship is not what God(s) want(s) from you. I'm certain that Native Americans think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Jews think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that John Frumists think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. Etc. etc. ad nauseum. |
Yep. Your right. |
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08/21/2008 02:36:14 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
it does seem to me that a LOT of atheists were former catholics. |
Personally, I don't know of any, but given that Catholicism represents the largest pool of Christians by far, wouldn't you EXPECT most converts (to any alternate belief) to be former Catholics? |
That makes sense. |
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08/21/2008 02:42:08 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Is it me or does it seem like that a LOT of (former Christian) atheists were brought up Catholic? |
Is it just me, or does it seem that most fundamentalist Christians are routinely anti-Catholic? |
Holy Jack Chick, say it ain't so!
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08/21/2008 02:45:59 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
[I am not anti-catholic. Most of my family are catholic. I just don't think that the way they worship is really what God wants from them. |
Originally posted by Louis:
I'm certain that Catholics think your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Wiccans think that your form of worship is not what God(dess) wants from you. I'm certain that Muslims think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Hindus think that your form of worship is not what God(s) want(s) from you. I'm certain that pagans (would) think that your form of worship is not what God(s) want(s) from you. I'm certain that Native Americans think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Jews think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that John Frumists think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. Etc. etc. ad nauseum. |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Yep. Your right. |
I personally don't care whether or not another religion feels that I'm not doing what God wants.
What bugs the sh*t out of me is that they feel that they have the right to tell me that when I ask them to respect my beliefs and keep their opinions to themselves.
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08/21/2008 03:17:53 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
[I am not anti-catholic. Most of my family are catholic. I just don't think that the way they worship is really what God wants from them. |
Originally posted by Louis:
I'm certain that Catholics think your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Wiccans think that your form of worship is not what God(dess) wants from you. I'm certain that Muslims think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Hindus think that your form of worship is not what God(s) want(s) from you. I'm certain that pagans (would) think that your form of worship is not what God(s) want(s) from you. I'm certain that Native Americans think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that Jews think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. I'm certain that John Frumists think that your form of worship is not what God wants from you. Etc. etc. ad nauseum. |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Yep. Your right. |
I personally don't care whether or not another religion feels that I'm not doing what God wants.
What bugs the sh*t out of me is that they feel that they have the right to tell me that when I ask them to respect my beliefs and keep their opinions to themselves. |
while I'm open to discussing anyone's opinion it does not mean I have to adopt their viewpoint. I can respect their viewpoint no matter how dad blasted wrong (i think) they are. I think the thing about discussing disputable beliefs is that not everyone is on the same level of spiritual awareness. This leads to different interpretations of what God wants from us. Indeed at different levels of spiritual awareness he may want different things from different people. To whom much is given much is expected.
Message edited by author 2008-08-21 15:18:51. |
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08/21/2008 03:57:51 PM · #39 |
In college, I had conversations with many that started, "I'm an atheist, but I was raised Catholic."
I know of one guy who calls himself a pagan (different from atheist, obviously) who says he was raised Protestant.
Maybe I've just not talked to enough atheists. :) |
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08/21/2008 05:28:24 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I really wasn't singling out catholics but it does seem to me that a LOT of atheists were former catholics. Just wondering if that rings true with others. |
It's the "evil" of that strong Jesuit education - you know rational thinking makes baby Jesus cry.
But seriously, I do think that, historically, Catholic schools - for all their other ills - did a relatively excellent job of educating the "souls" in their charge. Also, while Catholic dogma is often at strong odds with science and rationalism, many Catholic priests and Catholic colleges have excellent science backgrounds and have done some stellar research.
Since I'm of the mind that a strong science and rational thinking education absolutely undermines religious belief - a good thing, imnsho - the idea that so many Catholics that were given such education at an early age might end up being more likely to end up atheist wouldn't surprise me. Of course, without data - we're just whistling in the dark here.
Message edited by author 2008-08-21 17:34:58. |
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08/21/2008 05:51:02 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by karmat:
In college, I had conversations with many that started, "I'm an atheist, but I was raised Catholic."
I know of one guy who calls himself a pagan (different from atheist, obviously) who says he was raised Protestant.
Maybe I've just not talked to enough atheists. :) |
Well, I'm an atheist, but I was raised Mormon. . . . so there you go. ;) |
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08/21/2008 06:44:42 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I really wasn't singling out catholics but it does seem to me that a LOT of atheists were former catholics. Just wondering if that rings true with others. |
It's the "evil" of that strong Jesuit education - you know rational thinking makes baby Jesus cry.
But seriously, I do think that, historically, Catholic schools - for all their other ills - did a relatively excellent job of educating the "souls" in their charge. Also, while Catholic dogma is often at strong odds with science and rationalism, many Catholic priests and Catholic colleges have excellent science backgrounds and have done some stellar research.
Since I'm of the mind that a strong science and rational thinking education absolutely undermines religious belief - a good thing, imnsho - the idea that so many Catholics that were given such education at an early age might end up being more likely to end up atheist wouldn't surprise me. Of course, without data - we're just whistling in the dark here. |
And while we're on the subject of Catholic schools - - - GO IRISH!!!
Catholicism does not have a franchise on people screwed up by religion, they just have the numbers.
FWIW - I was raised Catholic, became non-Catholic, now I'm back going to mass, so I guess I'm a returning Catholic.
Can't say they have everything right, could be, I just don't know. I'm pretty sure no one has it completely right.
Reminds of a Dire Straits song that has the line
Two men say they̢۪re jesus one of them must be wrong
There̢۪s a protest singer singing a protest song
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08/21/2008 07:20:52 PM · #43 |
Christian->Satanist->Christian->Atheist->?Pantheist/Newage?+Reverse/Anti-Christian
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08/21/2008 07:52:00 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I really wasn't singling out catholics but it does seem to me that a LOT of atheists were former catholics. Just wondering if that rings true with others. |
It's the "evil" of that strong Jesuit education - you know rational thinking makes baby Jesus cry.
But seriously, I do think that, historically, Catholic schools - for all their other ills - did a relatively excellent job of educating the "souls" in their charge. Also, while Catholic dogma is often at strong odds with science and rationalism, many Catholic priests and Catholic colleges have excellent science backgrounds and have done some stellar research.
Since I'm of the mind that a strong science and rational thinking education absolutely undermines religious belief - a good thing, imnsho - the idea that so many Catholics that were given such education at an early age might end up being more likely to end up atheist wouldn't surprise me. Of course, without data - we're just whistling in the dark here. |
That makes sense according to the stats... High school education and below have a much higher percentage of saying they believe in God. I think the video also pointed out that a large percentage of those with the lower education levels were also older folks who also have a much higher percentage of belief in God so not so sure education level or quality of education is necessarily the key but might be.
Message edited by author 2008-08-21 19:54:01. |
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08/21/2008 07:58:00 PM · #45 |
| Ok Prove it! This is in reference to everyones post.... |
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08/21/2008 08:14:17 PM · #46 |
link
The level of belief is generally highest among people without a college education and lowest among those with postgraduate degrees.
...and many other interesting statistics! |
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11/02/2008 09:14:56 AM · #47 |
Response redirected from this thread...
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by JH:
Well, at least the Roman Catholic Church Ltd. are clamping down on gays. They're making a renewed effort to weed out priests with homosexual tendencies;
//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7700710.stm
Originally posted by article:
The authors said screening would help avoid "tragic situations" caused by what they termed psychological defects.
The guidance says the voluntary tests should also aim to vet for those with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies".
Among other traits that might make a candidate unsuitable for the priesthood, the advice lists "uncertain sexual identity," "excessive rigidity of character" and "strong affective dependencies".
The document also makes reference to heterosexual urges. |
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Seeing as their pedophile policy has solved nothing, I see this effort finishing with the same results.
Religion is always hiding its defects from the world. It's an amazing and troubling fact that so many people still believe what this religion dictates to the world. A bunch of homophobic pedophiles trying to tell the world what is right and what isn't is the biggest travesty this planet has tolerated for 2,000 years.
I'm embarrassed to be a human being with people like this trying to convince me that nature is wrong and that a higher order is what's important on this planet rather than respecting your fellow human being as what they are and moving on with your life. Isn't that what's it's all about folks?
Catholicism is on the same course as dinosaurs, extinction, but not soon enough. |
I think that Catholicism has severely distorted the teachings of the Bible. I personally think that it is a mistake to assume that because man has distorted, corrupted, and misused religion that God does not exist. His existence does not rely upon our good behavior. Not looking for an argument here. Just pointing out that if you argue 'organized religion is crap therefore there must not be a God' that this is not a logical argument. I'll concede that there is little in the way of a logical argument that he exists either. It is a matter of faith. |
Darren, I'd just like to clear up a few things about why many atheists reject God and help you understand that it's not just the homophobic and inhumane behavior that exists in the sects and fundamentally in the bible. But, this is a discussion better suited for this thread (and I'll paste a full response there).
First, just regarding Christianity, ALL sects of Christianity have distorted the Bible compared to their sister sects and none of them, not even "fundamentalists" actually follow the bible to the letter. Many atheists have read the Bible, and I'd bet a higher percentage of atheists have actually read the Bible than theists, and actually reading the Bible is one of the most significant gateways out of Christianity.
When an intellectually honest person reads the absurdities, injustices, cruelty, violence, intolerance, contradictions, and many other categories of Bronze Age ignorance that exist throughout the bible, it should lead to serious skepticism about the claims of divinity within the Bible. By the way, many of us recognized these problems before the luxury of the Internet and that was a painstaking process. Now, with sites like the one above, there's no excuse for remaining ignorant about the many problems with calling the Bible the "Word of God".
To make a long explanation short, recognizing the Bible as a work of man-made fiction (like a Michener novel but less entertaining and claiming to be a real account) it's sort of like catching your parents putting the "Santa" gifts under the Christmas tree, there's no going back to the ignorant belief that Santa is real.
Of course, many atheists who were Christians start by rejecting their Christianity, then explore other world religions, recognize how equally man-made they all clearly are, and then become agnostic or atheist eventually. It also helps to have a healthy understanding of physics, astrophysics, and evolutionary biology to recognize how ridiculous many religious notions are.
Bottom line: It's a wide area of knowledge that makes atheists reject the claims that there is any such thing as a God. Many of us are just amazed at how so many religious people turn a blind eye towards any clues and evidence that these claims of Gods come from the same place that claims about Santa Clause came from: They're made up by people.
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11/02/2008 10:41:51 AM · #48 |
| One could also read this to understand atheism perfectly. It's a short book, and will take an afternoon to finish. |
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11/02/2008 12:08:18 PM · #49 |
| More philosophy bibliography - another quick read by Bertrand Russell |
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11/02/2008 12:13:48 PM · #50 |
There is and must be something but we just don't know yet, because it's not the time.
That's what I believe.
I am not a religious guy, I don't believe in any religion that tells me there is one god and cerates all, and we have to warship him to be good... no, for now I just stay out of trouble, and live for myself without getting into trouble... How you get out of trouble, simple, don't get too close the any crowd that doesn't look friendly. |
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