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08/13/2008 07:08:22 PM · #176 |
Originally posted by metatate:
This inherent distrust of the human race is what fuels the divide in our culture. There's an assumption that people will rob the money from government when given the chance, which equates to robbing out of the pockets of the overtaxed wealthy. Again, a myth.
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It isn't an assumptiong. it is backed up by thousands of years of human action. Humans are not trustworthy.
Also..I have seen hundreds of people (worked at wal mart) that would pay for their groceries with food stamps and turn around and spend tens or hundreds of dollars on WANTS. (video games, movies, etc)
Makes no sense. If they don't make enough money to feed themselves...why should I be forced to help pick up the tab while they are spending over 50 bucks (60 now) on a new video game? |
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08/13/2008 07:10:30 PM · #177 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
And yet it's pretty obvious that most "waste" occurs in the area of military spending and tax "advantages" for certain categories of multinational corporations.
I'm going to hazard a wild guess that there is more money unaccounted for in Iraq within Haliburton's purview than the total provable welfare fraud for the whole country.
I just saw Les Miserables -- Valjean got ten years at hard labor for stealing bread for his starving family ... but let a CEO defraud the taxpayers of a few million and who cares, eh, that's just the way it works. Right.
People (self-labeled conservatives, anyway) always complain about how inefficient big government is, and how unfettered capitalism is the path to economic salvation. Yet, after who knows how many years of a free market in the health insurance industry, we have the worst dollar/benefit ratio in the industrialized world, have some forty million uninsured, and an administrative overhead running at about 30%. MediCare, the Government-run health insurance program for the elderly, has an administrative overhead of around 8%. No, where is the "waste" occuring?
Which is more immoral -- trying to score some food stamps, or locating your corporate "headquarters" in a PO Box in the Cayman Islands so that you a) pay no US taxes, and b) can skirt Federal law and sell oil production equipment to Iran (c.f. "Haliburton Products and Services") as occurred during our current Vice President's tenure as CEO at "The Big H"? |
Ok. Do two wrongs make a right? Have you seen me argue for corporation tax breaks? Have you seen me saying 'its ok for the DoD to waste billions ?
NO.
You can't say one misuse of money makes another misuse ok.
--Also, I have no love for CEO's that defraud the people who made them rich. But I guess it is wonderful to assume things, right?
Message edited by author 2008-08-13 19:12:16. |
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08/13/2008 10:17:28 PM · #178 |
Originally posted by metatate:
There's an assumption that people will rob the money from government when given the chance.....
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My job is with my state's Medicaid program and I have pretty much lost all my faith in the human race since joining up. You wouldn't believe half of what I see on a daily basis.
I promise you this and it really saddens me to say it but, given the chance, an OVERWHELMING majority of the people I deal with day to day would not only rob the money from Government - they already are. |
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08/14/2008 10:32:08 AM · #179 |
Here (pdf) is an interesting history of progress of social security in the US. From what I can gather, coronamv would prefer to take the social policies of the US back to a 19th century pre-industrial state of affairs, and egamble back to the 1930s.
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08/14/2008 11:47:35 AM · #180 |
| And your point it? Both systems have failed the American Citizens, well to all but those who have been cheating it. I don't advocated the harshness you say I do I advocate teaching them educating them. Making them capable of earning their way in life. You on the other had seem to think they cannot. |
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08/14/2008 12:41:19 PM · #181 |
For any and all who are interested I have an interview next wed and hopefully if things go well I will not NEED the foodstamps anymore. While I'm sure there are many who might take advantage of programs they do not in all reality qualify for I am not one of those. In fact I qualify for medicaid and choose not to take advantage of it because I am relatively healthy and in my own estimation do not NEED it. My children however do get it because they NEED it. I also qualify for a number of other programs that i don't take advantage of because I don't feel that I absolutely need it. I sold my car to pay the rent instead of getting section 8 assistance. Right now I have $20 to my name and I could get a TANF check but I will not because I don't think that I absolutely NEED it. I do get some help from family and as I have said make some money from the internet and while we do barely survive at the moment I aspire to greater things. I am working towards a goal of independence. To my way of thinking it is God who has provided for me and mine and I do not and would not steal from God. While I do not have to answer to anyone on this message board I will most definitely have to answer to Him. Personal character and humbleness are attributes that I have been able to develop through this journey in which I have relied upon foodstamps and the help of others. In my opinion everyone should have to spend a year being poor and then maybe there would be more empathy for the less fortunate.
Message edited by author 2008-08-15 04:28:25. |
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08/14/2008 12:59:19 PM · #182 |
That's great.
But really, even if 50% of the people that take advantage of these programs didn't really need it, the occupation of Iraq is more costly and far worse in the hundreds of thousands of casualties caused.
Maybe if we concentrated on doing things right rather than just promising huge tax breaks for the wealthy, we might see things get better.
Tack on the cost of "the war on drugs" and the huge prison population we pay for which incarcerates. These are short term solutions for long term problems.
Again, this idea that taxes and government programs are evil is simply a myth. You can't throw people into jail without a way to make them better people. We can't commit carelessly to wars without taking care of the details. This brainless form of government isn't working.
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08/14/2008 01:31:14 PM · #183 |
Originally posted by metatate:
That's great.
But really, even if 50% of the people that take advantage of these programs didn't really need it, the occupation of Iraq is more costly and far worse in the hundreds of thousands of casualties caused.
Maybe if we concentrated on doing things right rather than just promising huge tax breaks for the wealthy, we might see things get better.
Tack on the cost of "the war on drugs" and the huge prison population we pay for which incarcerates. These are short term solutions for long term problems.
Again, this idea that taxes and government programs are evil is simply a myth. You can't throw people into jail without a way to make them better people. We can't commit carelessly to wars without taking care of the details. This brainless form of government isn't working. |
Actually, if you read your statement you will see that all those dollars being wasted on prisons and wars are by our "big" government. Government is inefficient from the top to the bottom and the less decisions the jackasses in Washington can make with our money the better. That being said, I am not for cutting government aid to low income individuals and families. I would much rather focus on pork barrel funding and unnecessary and detrimental programs like the war on drugs. I do think its funny that the party in our country that has run on tax cuts and less government have created the biggest, most inefficient and personally intrusive government in recent times, ironic. |
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08/14/2008 02:21:10 PM · #184 |
| I don't disagree with you that government has not wasted our money on other things also. That still does not make it right for anyone to benefit from other peoples hard work. If we had a choice that would be one thing. The way things stand we have no choice and people who take without earning are just as wrong as big corporations swindling money or government wasteful spending. Two wrongs don't make a right.... |
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08/14/2008 02:40:02 PM · #185 |
There may be some middle ground here. Big government isn't as bad as stupid government.
Personally I think the "war" on drugs could be eradicated if drugs were regulated by the government (legal). Alcohol is a great example of a way people make a bunch of money for a "sin" as some call it . So instead of spending all the money on the drug war, we could be raking in the money of legalized drugs (while enforcing laws of regulation. Just a thought.
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08/14/2008 03:42:36 PM · #186 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by metatate:
There's an assumption that people will rob the money from government when given the chance.....
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My job is with my state's Medicaid program and I have pretty much lost all my faith in the human race since joining up. You wouldn't believe half of what I see on a daily basis.
I promise you this and it really saddens me to say it but, given the chance, an OVERWHELMING majority of the people I deal with day to day would not only rob the money from Government - they already are. |
Phil - Thank you for posting this. I do not understand the continual defense of those who abuse the social support systems designed for temporary relief. Some long time regular posters just keep churning out the same tired defenses - positioning their case based on single hardship incidents rather than offer address to the lack of personal responsibility and associated graft. The number of persons coming into maternity wards on medicaid who also have the lastest cell phone technology is eye opening. The same ones who expect the nursing staff to be their personal maids. It sickens me. A week does not pass without another unwed mother giving birth to her 2nd, 3rd, 4th child by yet another different father. Yet many posters here defend this and attack anyone who dares to point out this problem as uncaring, cruel and somehow a misguided christian. Their posts only confirm why I so disagree with their liberal give-a-way positions.
BTW - I think canon makes great gear and in no way believe that all canon users subscribe to the same socialist policies as Barack, just because he was captured shooting with one.
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08/14/2008 03:56:57 PM · #187 |
Originally posted by metatate:
That's great.
But really, even if 50% of the people that take advantage of these programs didn't really need it, the occupation of Iraq is more costly and far worse in the hundreds of thousands of casualties caused.
Maybe if we concentrated on doing things right rather than just promising huge tax breaks for the wealthy, we might see things get better.
Tack on the cost of "the war on drugs" and the huge prison population we pay for which incarcerates. These are short term solutions for long term problems.
Again, this idea that taxes and government programs are evil is simply a myth. You can't throw people into jail without a way to make them better people. We can't commit carelessly to wars without taking care of the details. This brainless form of government isn't working. |
Again. Two wrongs don't make a right.
You keep trying to change the subject. Lets stay on task.
I agree with you on alot of the other subjects. But that isn't what we are talking about right now...we are talking about waste in welfare. If you agree with the welfare system, defend it...but don't say that waste is ok...because waste happens in 'x number' of other places. That isn't an answer..it is an excuse.
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08/14/2008 03:58:14 PM · #188 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
I do think its funny that the party in our country that has run on tax cuts and less government have created the biggest, most inefficient and personally intrusive government in recent times, ironic. |
it is incredibly distressing and disgusting. The republicans have let 'conservatives' down for the past 5+ years. |
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08/14/2008 03:59:11 PM · #189 |
Originally posted by metatate:
There may be some middle ground here. Big government isn't as bad as stupid government.
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I agree!
Wholeheartedly...if they would spend my money wisely and efficiently. I would give up even more tax money. But they don't. |
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08/14/2008 04:01:05 PM · #190 |
Originally posted by metatate:
Personally I think the "war" on drugs could be eradicated if drugs were regulated by the government (legal). Alcohol is a great example of a way people make a bunch of money for a "sin" as some call it . So instead of spending all the money on the drug war, we could be raking in the money of legalized drugs (while enforcing laws of regulation. Just a thought. |
Also..it would cut down on crime.
Drug money fuels tons of other crimes. Prostitution...etc.
If we legalized drugs..we could regulate, tax and control. This would GREATLY slow down the illegal drug trafficking and 'turf wars' that occur because of territory used to sale drugs.
Stopping the war on drugs would be a great way to alleviate alot of problems currently bogging down our nation. |
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08/14/2008 04:10:12 PM · #191 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I do not understand the continual defense of those who abuse the social support systems designed for temporary relief. |
Who exactly is defending those who abuse social support systems designed for temporary relief? Could you point to a specific post wherein someone does that? I would very much appreciate it. Thanks. |
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08/14/2008 04:29:01 PM · #192 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by metatate:
Personally I think the "war" on drugs could be eradicated if drugs were regulated by the government (legal). Alcohol is a great example of a way people make a bunch of money for a "sin" as some call it . So instead of spending all the money on the drug war, we could be raking in the money of legalized drugs (while enforcing laws of regulation. Just a thought. |
Also..it would cut down on crime.
Drug money fuels tons of other crimes. Prostitution...etc.
If we legalized drugs..we could regulate, tax and control. This would GREATLY slow down the illegal drug trafficking and 'turf wars' that occur because of territory used to sale drugs.
Stopping the war on drugs would be a great way to alleviate alot of problems currently bogging down our nation. |
But what would all the out of work drug dealers do?
And, Obama is still a bad photographer! (just to stay on topic) |
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08/14/2008 04:32:57 PM · #193 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Stopping the war on drugs would be a great way to alleviate alot of problems currently bogging down our nation. |
This should be a no-brainer (in the good context) for "true" conservatives, especially of the Libertarian persuasion.
Talk about wasting taxpayer money ... treating a heroin addict on an outpatient basis costs about $4000/year -- incarcerating them for possession or criminal activity to support their habit costs $40-60,000/year. But police and prison guard unions and prison contractors have an investment in the growth industry of transferring a substantial portion of the youth population from society to a cell. |
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08/14/2008 04:34:27 PM · #194 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
But what would all the out of work drug dealers do? |
Apply to Cindy McCain for a Budweiser distributorship? |
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08/14/2008 04:42:54 PM · #195 |
Not to mention freeing up many farmers to grow hemp and whatever else they please.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by egamble:
Stopping the war on drugs would be a great way to alleviate alot of problems currently bogging down our nation. |
This should be a no-brainer (in the good context) for "true" conservatives, especially of the Libertarian persuasion.
Talk about wasting taxpayer money ... treating a heroin addict on an outpatient basis costs about $4000/year -- incarcerating them for possession or criminal activity to support their habit costs $40-60,000/year. But police and prison guard unions and prison contractors have an investment in the growth industry of transferring a substantial portion of the youth population from society to a cell. |
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08/14/2008 04:58:09 PM · #196 |
Originally posted by metatate:
Not to mention freeing up many farmers to grow hemp and whatever else they please. |
Bio-Diesel from hemp-seed oil would probably be pretty popular ... ;-) |
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08/14/2008 05:24:10 PM · #197 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by egamble:
Stopping the war on drugs would be a great way to alleviate alot of problems currently bogging down our nation. |
This should be a no-brainer (in the good context) for "true" conservatives, especially of the Libertarian persuasion.
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I completely agree.
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08/14/2008 07:47:36 PM · #198 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by metatate:
There's an assumption that people will rob the money from government when given the chance.....
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My job is with my state's Medicaid program and I have pretty much lost all my faith in the human race since joining up. You wouldn't believe half of what I see on a daily basis.
I promise you this and it really saddens me to say it but, given the chance, an OVERWHELMING majority of the people I deal with day to day would not only rob the money from Government - they already are. |
Phil - Thank you for posting this. I do not understand the continual defense of those who abuse the social support systems designed for temporary relief. Some long time regular posters just keep churning out the same tired defenses - positioning their case based on single hardship incidents rather than offer address to the lack of personal responsibility and associated graft. The number of persons coming into maternity wards on medicaid who also have the lastest cell phone technology is eye opening. The same ones who expect the nursing staff to be their personal maids. It sickens me. A week does not pass without another unwed mother giving birth to her 2nd, 3rd, 4th child by yet another different father. Yet many posters here defend this and attack anyone who dares to point out this problem as uncaring, cruel and somehow a misguided christian. Their posts only confirm why I so disagree with their liberal give-a-way positions.
BTW - I think canon makes great gear and in no way believe that all canon users subscribe to the same socialist policies as Barack, just because he was captured shooting with one. |
Dude, I could tell you stories that would literally make you sick to your stomach.
I know what you mean about the latest cell phone technology and several children from different fathers. Today I sent cards out to a 27 year old. When I was finished with her I had to issue cards to her 8 children - all with different last names. I promise you this is not uncommon at all.
I also have to call members back on occasion and many times I'll have to listen to rap, heavy metal or country "while my party is being reached". These people are supposed to be at or below the poverty level and they're paying money to have a song play instead of simple rings?
The sense of entitlement is sickening as well. Maybe 3 out of every 10 I talk to (and I'm being extremely generous with that figure) are thankful for the free medical care they're getting. The rest are standing there with their hands out and if you don't give them what they feel they're entitled to they are the some of the most vicious individuals you will ever encounter. I've actually had people tell me (when they found out we won't pay for a pill to help them stop smoking), "Just what is this insurance good for anyway?". They think it's ridiculous that they pay out of pocket for something to help them stop smoking when they have no problems buying the cigarettes to begin with.
The same goes for other addictions. I can't tell you how many people I have dealt with that are cursing me because I can't find a doctor or pharmacy (that accepts Medicaid) within 50 miles that will prescribe Suboxone or fill it. "I can't pay for that shit!!!" they say but they fail to remember buying the dope that they were paying for to make them have to take Suboxone. Also, you should hear how big a piece of crap you are when you can't find a pain management doctor with 10 miles of their residence. When you offer to find them specialists that will actually alleviate their pain by therapy, surgery or other means they're not interested. They want their Lortabs or Oxycontin - not a pain free life. With the hurt I've seen prior to my three back surgeries, it is hard for me have compassion for those who are more interested in being high on our dollar than healed.
Don't even get me started on the gastric bypass surgeries and Lap bands we pay for.
Frankly, I believe mandatory drug tests should be administered to anyone receiving welfare and/or Medicaid. Funny how I have to take a drug test to give these people free health care but they don't have to take one to receive it. What's wrong with that picture?
If you're down on your luck you deserve help. I hear stories of despair and can barely keep my composure. Just unimaginable circumstances. Bad things happen to good people and they need our help. These people don't have Toby Keith or 50 Cent singing to me on their Blackberry while I'm trying to reach them. They don't have 7 kids playing the Xbox 360 online in the background while I'm trying to find mom an OBGYN to see if number 8 is on the way. In fact, they don't even have a piece of bread to eat while their welfare/Medicaid receiving neighbor is on their way to their Lap band surgery.
The type of behavior we reward in this country is astonishing. So many opportunities are available for people who need help and it seems like the majority are only interested in taking advantage of those that involve no effort on their part. It is refereshing to find the one who is working hard to get themselves out of the hole that their prior generations left for them. Do you know how good it feels to help someone find a physician who can see them around 6pm because that falls between the time gap of them getting off work at 5:30 and going to school at 6:30? Few and far between indeed. |
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08/15/2008 12:44:25 AM · #199 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by metatate:
There's an assumption that people will rob the money from government when given the chance.....
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My job is with my state's Medicaid program and I have pretty much lost all my faith in the human race since joining up. You wouldn't believe half of what I see on a daily basis.
I promise you this and it really saddens me to say it but, given the chance, an OVERWHELMING majority of the people I deal with day to day would not only rob the money from Government - they already are. |
Phil - Thank you for posting this. I do not understand the continual defense of those who abuse the social support systems designed for temporary relief. Some long time regular posters just keep churning out the same tired defenses - positioning their case based on single hardship incidents rather than offer address to the lack of personal responsibility and associated graft. The number of persons coming into maternity wards on medicaid who also have the lastest cell phone technology is eye opening. The same ones who expect the nursing staff to be their personal maids. It sickens me. A week does not pass without another unwed mother giving birth to her 2nd, 3rd, 4th child by yet another different father. Yet many posters here defend this and attack anyone who dares to point out this problem as uncaring, cruel and somehow a misguided christian. Their posts only confirm why I so disagree with their liberal give-a-way positions.
BTW - I think canon makes great gear and in no way believe that all canon users subscribe to the same socialist policies as Barack, just because he was captured shooting with one. |
Dude, I could tell you stories that would literally make you sick to your stomach.
I know what you mean about the latest cell phone technology and several children from different fathers. Today I sent cards out to a 27 year old. When I was finished with her I had to issue cards to her 8 children - all with different last names. I promise you this is not uncommon at all.
I also have to call members back on occasion and many times I'll have to listen to rap, heavy metal or country "while my party is being reached". These people are supposed to be at or below the poverty level and they're paying money to have a song play instead of simple rings?
The sense of entitlement is sickening as well. Maybe 3 out of every 10 I talk to (and I'm being extremely generous with that figure) are thankful for the free medical care they're getting. The rest are standing there with their hands out and if you don't give them what they feel they're entitled to they are the some of the most vicious individuals you will ever encounter. I've actually had people tell me (when they found out we won't pay for a pill to help them stop smoking), "Just what is this insurance good for anyway?". They think it's ridiculous that they pay out of pocket for something to help them stop smoking when they have no problems buying the cigarettes to begin with.
The same goes for other addictions. I can't tell you how many people I have dealt with that are cursing me because I can't find a doctor or pharmacy (that accepts Medicaid) within 50 miles that will prescribe Suboxone or fill it. "I can't pay for that shit!!!" they say but they fail to remember buying the dope that they were paying for to make them have to take Suboxone. Also, you should hear how big a piece of crap you are when you can't find a pain management doctor with 10 miles of their residence. When you offer to find them specialists that will actually alleviate their pain by therapy, surgery or other means they're not interested. They want their Lortabs or Oxycontin - not a pain free life. With the hurt I've seen prior to my three back surgeries, it is hard for me have compassion for those who are more interested in being high on our dollar than healed.
Don't even get me started on the gastric bypass surgeries and Lap bands we pay for.
Frankly, I believe mandatory drug tests should be administered to anyone receiving welfare and/or Medicaid. Funny how I have to take a drug test to give these people free health care but they don't have to take one to receive it. What's wrong with that picture?
If you're down on your luck you deserve help. I hear stories of despair and can barely keep my composure. Just unimaginable circumstances. Bad things happen to good people and they need our help. These people don't have Toby Keith or 50 Cent singing to me on their Blackberry while I'm trying to reach them. They don't have 7 kids playing the Xbox 360 online in the background while I'm trying to find mom an OBGYN to see if number 8 is on the way. In fact, they don't even have a piece of bread to eat while their welfare/Medicaid receiving neighbor is on their way to their Lap band surgery.
The type of behavior we reward in this country is astonishing. So many opportunities are available for people who need help and it seems like the majority are only interested in taking advantage of those that involve no effort on their part. It is refereshing to find the one who is working hard to get themselves out of the hole that their prior generations left for them. Do you know how good it feels to help someone find a physician who can see them around 6pm because that falls between the time gap of them getting off work at 5:30 and going to school at 6:30? Few and far between indeed. |
All I can say is wow. You describe a truly terrible state of personal character for those receiving medicaid. It is truly shocking and while I'd like not to believe it, it has a ring of truth. I think that drug testing is an appropriate thing for receiving any type of assistance. That would certainly cut down on the population of users and abusers of the system. If they are found dirty then they should be forced to get drug treatment or lose their benefits. I have to believe that it is a breakdown of the American family and drugs that are driving people to such bad behavior. I don't have a cell phone. I don't have a land line either. I do have a $20/year magic jack phone that operates through my internet connection. The service is spotty at times but for the most part it is functional and very economical. This is another reason why having the internet connection makes sense for my situation. I can spend $30 on internet and have a phone basically for free. On top of that I have a lot of resources on the internet to further my situation to a point where I can get off of the foodstamps. I used the internet to get the interview I have next wednesday. I never would have known about the opportunity otherwise as employers do not advertise in the papers much anymore it seems. |
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08/15/2008 01:55:02 PM · #200 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Dude, I could tell you stories that would literally make you sick to your stomach. |
I do not choose to prioritise my life around ringtones, drugs and careless sexual encounters - nor do I think them sensible priorities for anyone. I don't really understand the mentality of people who are rude and ungratious - especially to health workers. I am full of admiration for people like you who provide those essential services in challenging environments. I can understand why you would feel aggrieved, but, however, sometimes we need to step back and look at the bigger picture.
I think that we should all recognise that people come under very different and sometimes intense pressures to ourselves. I don't always understand, but at least I am sufficiently self-aware to know that I don't understand, and that social barriers will probably always prevent me from fully understanding, our differences.
I do think that everyone should be entitled to prioritise life in the way that they wish to, even if I disagree with their choices (eg, I am sure that my investment in camera equipment would be questionable prioritisation for most people, and I could never understand someone who invested in their "eternal soul" by way of church tithe). Everyone (without exception) has their failings - encourage people to be more sensible, but sanctimonious condescension is utterly wasted.
I would always fight for there to be a safety net for all of us in terms of the basic human needs for survival and participation in modern society - even the people who are in my opinion rude and whose decisions are foolish and wasteful. Encourage them to make more sensible choices, but our common humanity is too important to ignore.
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