Obama is a Canon shooter - DPChallenge Forums

08/10/2008 06:24:06 PM · #101

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by Matthew:
You propose to save "stolen" taxes by forcing people already on the edge of poverty out of the benefits system. Your version of tough love might kill a few hundred or thousand people, but you think that this brand of "compassionate" approach would be worth it.

Short question for egamble: You are concerned that you are paying too much taxes which benefit the poor and you propose to let them fend for themselves after a few years and to let them "live or die". This will reduce your taxes. How much do you expect to save per year for each dead poor person? Would it be ok to let a person die so that you could save a dollar? Or a few cents? How much would it have to be for it to be "worth" it?

Sam,
Get over yourself. You are intentionally misrepresenting my position.

These people might deserve help. But it isn't the job of our government to steal tax money
to ensure they eat. It should be left up to private entities and individuals. It is my opinion
that IF I decide to take care of those less fortunate it should be through an organization of MY
choosing and not forced by the government. Why is that so hard to understand? IT ISN"T THE JOB OF
THE GOVERNMENT.

As for your 'question'. Prove to me that we will have mass death if the Welfare System were repealed.
Then I will answer your question. Speaking of answered questions..Why haven't you answered any of mine?

-You short-change 'poor' people by assuming they are just criminals that are being pacified by the
welfare system. I think your comments show what kind of 'compassion' you really have for these people.
Those that do result to criminal activities...deserve to be in prison.

08/10/2008 06:54:05 PM · #102

Originally posted by egamble:

If the only thing stopping these people from becoming criminals is food stamps or HUD. Then perhaps they don't deserve to belong in a lawful and just society?

Ok, let's assume you come to the conclusion that they don't deserve to belong in a lawful and just society. What would you do with them?

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

08/10/2008 07:01:57 PM · #103

Originally posted by egamble:

Those that do result to criminal activities...deserve to be in prison.

Hehe, I think I understand your thinking pretty well. I even predicted you'd say something like this. Do you understand that putting them in prison costs you money? Do you understand that people who commit crimes don't do so just because they are evil? Maybe they are desperate...

You love to put people in categories. Good people deserve to be rewarded. Bad people deserve to be punished. This kind of thinking won't solve our problems and it won't make you happy.

togtog

Nikon D300

08/10/2008 07:52:13 PM · #104

Since no one has chimed in on this yet.

I know someone who is unable to work and collects both welfare and food stamps. They get $600 per month for welfare, and somewhere around $90 per month for food.

The cheapest, low income apartment around here is about $575 per month. That only leaves $25 for electric, water, phone, soap for both dish and laundry, deodorant, toothpaste, shampoo, household cleaners, bug poison, notepads, pencil or pens, haircuts (though they could probably always use a sharp rock), drug copay (even on Medicaid and Medicare prescriptions are up to $10 a pop), over the counter meds...

None of that can be paid with food stamps. So their only two choices is to live outside, which is illegal not to mention dangerous, or find a roommate.

So with a roommate, lets say they both make the same and split things 50/50. $1200 total income, minus $575, leaves $625, woo, lots of money for the above, buuuuuuut...

Now we need to figure in electric and either cooling or heating, average around here is $300 per month, lets be fair and say they are only spending $200.

Phone service, either land line or cellphone, $60 per month.

Water and sewer, $40 per month.

If they can get minimal cable or antenna for free good for them, around here that would take an act of god and a good lawyer, so $30 a month for 13 channels. Lets say $15, just to be fair since they might be able to get it free.

What are we up to, $315 in fees, that leaves us with $310.

Oh forgot something, most of the low-income apartments around here charge extra for washer and dryer, $25 per month.

$285 now, that is about $142 per person for all non-food items mentioned above, plus any savings for a rainy day.

Of course all this is figuring the other roommate is reliable, doesn't blow their money somewhere, makes that much, has no extra expenses, etc.

Oh and since I am spitting out numbers; $90 in food stamps, is $3 per day obviously. It costs $44 per month for milk, bread, and lunch meat. I didn't include any costs for mustard, etc. and it figures one sandwich with a single slice of meat per day. I doubt the FDA would clear this as a proper diet in any case, prisoners on death-row eat better.

That covers costs of "living", and hell if I would want to "live" that life.

There is another crux to this, lets say either party wishes to try to get a job part-time as they are able... The first $600 they make in the month, goes back to welfare! Yes, it is true. With permission from the government and signing up for a job program they can keep half of that $600. So, they make $600 and $300 is taken away up front. Someone making part-time, after taxes and fees, only makes about $600 per month anyway. So they end up unable to pay their rent, if they get a job. Ha ha! A brilliant system...

And all this time, they need to worry if their roommate is going to drop out, either die or leave for something better. Which will leave the person unable to pay their rent, but that is ok, for the $600 they get per month, they can rent a storage unit and someone to move their things while they are homeless...

08/10/2008 07:53:28 PM · #105

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Sam,
You are a sad little fellow. Just because you think or keep repeating the 'eric is not happy' mantra...doesn't make it true. Believe it or not, but my overall happiness doesn't depend on the state of the Welfare System. You are just my entertainment on a very rainy weekend.

1.) Yes, Prisons do cost money. I am willing to pay to put criminals in Jail...just like I am willing to pay to put people through school without huge debt when they get out. I AM NOT WILLING TO PAY FOR SOMEONE TO MOOCH off the government.

2.) You can't justify breaking the law. If you break the law..you deserve the punishment.

3.) YOUR way of thinking doesn't solve anything. You just want to keep allowing people to live their lives in poverty...just to make sure they don't become 'criminals'. If either of us is sad with our plot in life...it is those that think so lowly of their fellow americans that they can only see a future ,without welfare, where their neighboors resort to brute violence and criminal activity.

08/10/2008 08:11:18 PM · #106

Togtog,

I find the story incredibly far-fetched.(the housing price part..anyways) Just for the sake of arguement..I will bite.

If the absolute cheapest government-subsidized housing in your area is $575 a month..then perhaps your friend is living 'above their means'. Maybe they should think about moving to an area of the country that could offer thema better life?

'So their only two choices is to live outside, which is illegal not to mention dangerous, or find a roommate. '

-FALSE DILEMA. There are plenty of other options. Here is snother option, they could live with family? Their meager income could actually help out a great deal with the
house bills of a small family.

'Phone service, either land line or cellphone, $60 per month.'-Living above their means. I can't afford a Hummer...should the government give me money just to satisfy my WANTS?

If your friend would cut unnecessary spending..they would have $90 additional dollars to spend on food or other goods.

'If they can get minimal cable or antenna for free good for them, around here that would take an act of god and a good lawyer, so $30 a month for 13 channels. Lets say $15, just to be fair since they might be able to get it free. '--Living above their means. I can't afford a Hummer...should the government give me money just to satisfy my WANTS?

'285 now, that is about $142 per person for all non-food items mentioned above, plus any savings for a rainy day. '---Be like me. Buy from the stores that get slightly damaged goods and HALF YOUR COSTS just for a dented box here and there.

'Oh and since I am spitting out numbers; $90 in food stamps, is $3 per day obviously. It costs $44 per month for milk, bread, and lunch meat. I didn't include any costs for mustard, etc. and it figures one sandwich with a single slice of meat per day. I doubt the FDA would clear this as a proper diet in any case, prisoners on death-row eat better. '
---Here in po-dunk Russellville, Arkansas...we have a daily food kitchen(private Christian organization). I believe they serve at least two meals a day. I am sure there is a place like that in your area..if not...your friend still has the option to move?

'The first $600 they make in the month, goes back to welfare! Yes, it is true. With permission from the government and signing up for a job program they can keep half of that $600. So, they make $600 and $300 is taken away up front. Someone making part-time, after taxes and fees, only makes about $600 per month anyway. So they end up unable to pay their rent, if they get a job. Ha ha! A brilliant system... '--exactly what I said...the current system doesn't make sense. Which is why we need a change.

'And all this time, they need to worry if their roommate is going to drop out, either die or leave for something better. Which will leave the person unable to pay their rent, but that is ok, for the $600 they get per month, they can rent a storage unit and someone to move their things while they are homeless...'--Do they not have little things called 'leases' in Florida?

Message edited by author 2008-08-10 20:12:51.

08/10/2008 08:13:10 PM · #107

Eric, please read my previous posts and Matthew's again. You have the choice of paying a small amount to provide for people's basic needs or you can pay a bigger amount for law enforcement, prisons, etc. You pay in any case. However, the amount you pay differs. And the state of the society you live in differs.

You show a strong black/white thinking. This is not uncommon in the US and I think it is the cause of many of our problems (drug policy for example. Many European countries have basically solved this problem. Yes, there are still some junkies, but they are being taken care of and their impact on society is marginal. In the US, you spend tons of money on drug prohibition, create a market and profits for dealers, thereby cause violence, neglect the treatment of addicts, etc. I have the impression that all of this stems from a "Drugs are wrong! All people having anything to do with them need to be punished!" thinking.)

I would like to recommend a book to you (and everyone else): Speak Peace in a World of Conflict

Read it if you have time, you won't regret it.

Here's a first impression of the ideas it explains:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dpk5Z7GIFs
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbgxFgAN7_w

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

08/10/2008 09:01:05 PM · #108

Originally posted by egamble:

1.) Yes, Prisons do cost money. I am willing to pay to put criminals in Jail...just like I am willing to pay to put people through school without huge debt when they get out. I AM NOT WILLING TO PAY FOR SOMEONE TO MOOCH off the government.

2.) You can't justify breaking the law. If you break the law..you deserve the punishment.

3.) YOUR way of thinking doesn't solve anything. You just want to keep allowing people to live their lives in poverty...just to make sure they don't become 'criminals'. If either of us is sad with our plot in life...it is those that think so lowly of their fellow americans that they can only see a future ,without welfare, where their neighboors resort to brute violence and criminal activity.

Long term unemployment is a social ill that does need to be addressed. You have moved on from your early argument that your proposals are there to save money and indicated that you are willing to spend taxpayer money to solve the problem (as long as it is not to pay benefits - no matter how pragmatic that solution might be).

Perhaps you would be willing to spend some money on education and support and implementation of other social policies (such as implementing and enforcing anti-age discrimination laws) that will have the desired effect of improving access to jobs?

08/10/2008 09:40:26 PM · #109

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by egamble:
1.) Yes, Prisons do cost money. I am willing to pay to put criminals in Jail...just like I am willing to pay to put people through school without huge debt when they get out. I AM NOT WILLING TO PAY FOR SOMEONE TO MOOCH off the government.

2.) You can't justify breaking the law. If you break the law..you deserve the punishment.

3.) YOUR way of thinking doesn't solve anything. You just want to keep allowing people to live their lives in poverty...just to make sure they don't become 'criminals'. If either of us is sad with our plot in life...it is those that think so lowly of their fellow americans that they can only see a future ,without welfare, where their neighboors resort to brute violence and criminal activity.

Long term unemployment is a social ill that does need to be addressed. You have moved on from your early argument that your proposals are there to save money and indicated that you are willing to spend taxpayer money to solve the problem (as long as it is not to pay benefits - no matter how pragmatic that solution might be).

Perhaps you would be willing to spend some money on education and support and implementation of other social policies (such as implementing and enforcing anti-age discrimination laws) that will have the desired effect of improving access to jobs?

I never said that I considered ALL taxes...stolen from me. Only those used uselessly. (like ongoing welfare, or pork spending). I would love to spend more on education! (then again, we need to actually spend wisely with what we have first)

Message edited by author 2008-08-10 21:40:43.

MelonMusketeer

Nikon D7000

Nikon MF 50mm f/1.4

08/10/2008 10:11:39 PM · #110

I see that this thread started with a loose Canon, and went out of control from that point.

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

08/11/2008 08:45:14 AM · #111

Originally posted by egamble:

So you would advocate higher taxes in order to reform the welfare system? Your reforms being designed to eliminate perceived moral unfairness.

As regards "pork spending", what a revolutionary idea. It is quite astonishing that no political party has thought to promise tax cuts on the back of increased efficiency...

The only risk is that the first monumental waste of money to be identified will be your first idea of "increased taxation to reduce moral outrage" in the welfare system.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

08/11/2008 10:01:05 AM · #112

Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:

I see that this thread started with a loose Canon, and went out of control from that point.

"Your powers of observation continue to serve you well."

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlU1HLkdmNk

togtog

Nikon D300

08/11/2008 10:37:01 AM · #113

Eric,

Those are actual prices from where I live.

I wonder, if someone only received $20 a month, if you would say eating is beyond their means. I'm not sure why you keep repeating that specific statement actually. It is obvious that if a persons expenses exceed their income, they are living beyond their means. It however does not support any argument or position imo. I can say, water is wet. That is also a true statement but does nothing to help my argument.

As for moving, who is going to pay for them to move, who is going to pay for their motel while they wait to be approved by various apartments? Again I think you are assuming that most people have family they can leech off of during the hard times. If they had family to leech off of why would they be struggling to get by on Bologna sandwiches?

False dilemma? Plenty of other options? Yes, a magical unicorn could pay their rent for them, they could win the lotto, maybe their poverty is just a dream... please, just because you can think of a what if or a could be doesn't mean they are obtainable nor realistic for any specific person. You assume they have family. You assume their family isn't dealing dope and running a drug house and can legally house them (leases around here have a max occupant count and require permission from the landlord and sometimes a new lease for additional people to join the household).

I like how you compare owning a Hummer to owning a telephone. I'm not sure what world you come from but it is IMPOSSIBLE today to get any sort of job even cleaning outhouses without a number for a company to contact. It is also not a good idea to not have a way to call 911, or to talk to government services. Oh, btw, social security ala welfare, requires a phone number AND address you can be reached at at all times. Yes you can give the phone number of a friend and play phone tag, you can also drop dead and die, just because it is an option doesn't make it a good one.

I was actually wondering if you would go off on the phone as being some sort of luxury and I think I could just stop here, however I will continue.

Oh, here is the Hummer bit again, now for the cable. You can disagree with this point, in fact I know you will, but I believe people need to stay informed with what is going on around them. Yes, they could buy the newspaper however.

The dented goods is a great idea, assuming there is such a store they can reach and the prices are actually half off. We have a few discount stores around here but their prices are at most 10% off wal-mart's prices, still a savings but no way to tell if such an assumption is realistic or not for a specific person again.

Daily food kitchens, I cannot say if we do or do not have such here. However, that is assuming they have access to one, via walking, biking, bus. Note that they do not have a car, otherwise they would be paying for insurance and gas, and obviously they cannot afford a taxi either. Also note that any walking or biking will burn extra calories, when they are already eating very little as it is, that could easily kill them.

Same as I said above about moving.

You may not notice but you have a clear sarcastic overtone to almost everything you say, it doesn't help make your points at all. I am aware of my own sarcastic tone now. Little things called 'leases', oh I don't know, that there is too much for me to think about, what is a leases? Oh wait, I think I know, pa showed me once....

A lease does not protect you against a co-signer not paying, both parties are fully responsible for the full rent. If one party defaults the other party must pay their share or after three months the landlord can evict all parties. That three months can be used to find a new roommate yes, figuring they are in some high-supply, however any back rent will still be owed, a single missed payment might be too much to cover.

So what does the person do? Try to sue them in small claims court? More money wasted on fees, and if the other party doesn't have the money they are screwed anyway. You cannot squeeze water from a rock.

Thank you for your time.

theSaj

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

08/11/2008 11:03:34 AM · #114

Originally posted by AndyMac24:

Ron Paul was the only decent person running under the Republican ticket. Does it make sense for one party to be so divided? It seems lateley the Republicans have seen some chaotic times. Isn't the percentage of "Republican" registerd voters down drastically from 4 years ago?

Did you not see the Democrat primary. Talk about division.

Frankly, I think Ron Paul was probably the only decent person running on either ticket.

We basically have the Trinity of Sleaze. "McCaine the Father, Obama the Son, and Hillary the Unholy Spirit - three persons, one politician!"

08/11/2008 05:15:35 PM · #115

Togtog,

-Believe it or not....the most common reason somebody is in debt...is living above their means. This is true for rich and poor. And yes, it is possible to 'survive' on $20 a month. It would suck...but it is possible. Roman Noodles and Tap water.

-Several answers.
They don't have to live in a hotel before they are approved. They could try to get approved BEFORE they move?

Family aren't the only people that you can 'leech' (some people don't consider helping family out to be a burden) off of. There are multiple places that offer free places to stay for single men...and others that usually offer for women and children. The local salvation army offers places for men here..

Your assumptiong that 'bologna sandwhiches' is 'getting by'...shows that we , in the United states, don't realize what true poverty is. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, that would love to 'get by' on 'bologna sandwhiches'.

-Yes, FALSE DILEMMA. You created a situation and then only claimed a certain number of possibilities to solve it. In reality, you have many different possibilities that YOUR scenerio left out. They might not be aesthetically pleasing....but they are there for the choosing nonetheless.

-As for the things I assume..>You assume that they don't have a family, you assume their family IS dealing drugs....etc. It is funny, that so many of you people who advocate being compassionate have such a negative outlook on those you are showing your 'compassion' to and their families.

-A phone isn't a neccestity for living. I was reviewing Maslow's Hierarchy...I don't see telephone on any of the basic neccessities. Yes..it is a good thing to have...but YES you can get by without it.

-As for being informed. At most universities...the public can have access to 'free internet'....daily news updates are not required to be truly updated. You always assume that you have to spend money in order to satisfy some kind of want or need. Entertainment? Try the Library.

-As for the silliness about 'not transport' or kiling themselves by walking or biking. How do these people get to the grocery store when they are on foodstamps?

-Sorry about the sarcasm...that is just my style. Not meant to be rude..I talk like that in real life too. No offense meant.

08/11/2008 05:25:09 PM · #116

egamble, you complain about having to pay too much in taxes, but you expect others to happily live with $20 a month on Roman Noodles and tap water. Looks like you used different standards of measurement for yourself and for others. You know what Eric's advice for you would be? "If you can't pay your taxes you are living above your means." ;-)

(And no, please don't answer: "I didn't say they're happy!")

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 IF EX DG HSM for Canon

08/11/2008 06:35:34 PM · #117

Originally posted by Sam94720:

No, I complain about my taxes being wasted. YOu can't seem to get that through your head.

Also...I didn't say happily.

coronamv

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

08/11/2008 06:44:23 PM · #118

I feel some of you are twisting words to fit your need. First A person on Welfare should not be concerned with luxuries such as Cable tv and A phone"any kind of phone" Just like driving a car in this country is a privilage not a right. Second tax money would be better spent educating a person then providing them with welfare. Third you commit the crime you do the time no matter what your income status is... Also I dont think anyone should be happy with living on $20 month and that should be motivation to get out of the situation "what ever it may be"

08/11/2008 06:58:17 PM · #119

Originally posted by egamble:

No, I complain about my taxes being wasted. YOu can't seem to get that through your head.

As Matthew and I have argued, your taxes would be higher and more of them would be wasted if we simply cut people off welfare.

I think I'll start a different thread about the issue of punishment. It's a big issue and we are already far away from the original topic here.

08/11/2008 07:00:53 PM · #120

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by egamble:
No, I complain about my taxes being wasted. YOu can't seem to get that through your head.

As Matthew and I have argued, your taxes would be higher and more of them would be wasted if we simply cut people off welfare.

I think I'll start a different thread about the issue of punishment. It's a big issue and we are already far away from the original topic here.

No. that isn't true.

You guys just haven't thought it through.

FIXING THE PROBLEM..might cost more in the short run...but keeping people down and just feeding the problem...costs FAR more in the long run.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

08/11/2008 07:44:40 PM · #121

Originally posted by egamble:

FIXING THE PROBLEM..might cost more in the short run...but keeping people down and just feeding the problem...costs FAR more in the long run.

You keep assuming that cutting welfare would motivate people to fend for themselves and improve their situation on their own. This may be true for some, but others are simply not able to get a job and earn their money themselves. What would those people do? They would either have to rely on different support, die or turn to crime.

You might want to have a look at the welfare policies, education levels and crime rates of different countries to compare. Start with the Scandinavian ones, Sweden for example.

I don't think that anyone here advocates "keeping people down". I fully support the "teach a man to fish" approach. However, some won't be able to fish for themselves.

Just started a new thread about the issue of punishment.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

08/11/2008 08:10:49 PM · #122

It's absolutely unbelievable how much arrogance and how little compassion is shining through this thread.

R.

Message edited by author 2008-08-11 20:11:01.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

08/11/2008 08:12:44 PM · #123

I still think McCain is a better photographer.

coronamv

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 IF EX DG HSM for Canon

08/11/2008 09:16:29 PM · #124

So where do you start teaching those who are willing to learn and stop perpetuate welfare for those who are not willing to better themself?