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08/05/2008 11:44:44 AM · #326 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
I have to somewhat agree with one earlier that thought this was like playing tennis without a ball. Lots of huffing and puffing and sweating, and nobody gets anywhere. |
I think the drive-by commentary that adds nothing to the conversation except flip remarks about how stupid we all look should be ignored. Wouldn't a person with better things to do look smarter by saying nothing, rather than pointing out how much time they're not wasting here?
If you're participating meaningfully, that's reason enough. Obviously you're getting something out of it. The least you're getting is mental exercise, the most, further of conviction of your beliefs. |
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08/05/2008 11:44:57 AM · #327 |
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
do we truly know what God's intentions were? I think I know, I won't really know until I ask God. |
Then it's too late. "Oh, you mean I WAS supposed to obey the Sabbath or be put to death? My bad!" |
Ok, I kind of laughed at that comment and I'm stumped on how to respond. |
Well, the bottom line is if everything's REALLY set up that way then there will be precious few souls in heaven, I daresay :-)
R.
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08/05/2008 11:47:31 AM · #328 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
do we truly know what God's intentions were? I think I know, I won't really know until I ask God. |
Then it's too late. "Oh, you mean I WAS supposed to obey the Sabbath or be put to death? My bad!" |
Ok, I kind of laughed at that comment and I'm stumped on how to respond. |
Well, the bottom line is if everything's REALLY set up that way then there will be precious few souls in heaven, I daresay :-)
R. |
Amen Robert!
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08/05/2008 11:50:16 AM · #329 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
If YOU read it, Louis, you'll see passages of N.T. that indicate the law was given to the Jews, i.e. Israel. By "grace" the Gentiles, i.e. the rest of us, can partake of the salvation offered to Israel, but not by works of the law, i.e. keeping the temple ordinances. By faith we are "grafted" into the family, not by keeping the Sabbath or following the dietary laws. Paul writes extensively, and the writer to Hebrews recounts the parallels and clarifys.
And there is NO contradiction at all. You only don't understand my viewpoint. Though I am not commanded to follow O.T. law, I DO study it, regarding it as something important to the overall understanding. I don't toss it off as unimportant and refuse to read it or learn from it. The gospel is to be found in O.T.
But not if you don't look for it. |
I understand the position. Remember, I was there, lock, stock, and barrel. Now I'm on the outside looking in, and from my point of view, what you've written merely confirms what I consider to be the reality of the situation: you must, in effect, disregard scripture in order to accept it. People of faith have no alternative if they want to actually live in the world in a reasonable way.
Incidentally, when was the last time a fundamentalist believer in the West cut off their hand or gouged out their eye in order to gain salvation? |
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08/05/2008 11:51:36 AM · #330 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by farfel53:
I have to somewhat agree with one earlier that thought this was like playing tennis without a ball. Lots of huffing and puffing and sweating, and nobody gets anywhere. |
I think the drive-by commentary that adds nothing to the conversation except flip remarks about how stupid we all look should be ignored. Wouldn't a person with better things to do look smarter by saying nothing, rather than pointing out how much time they're not wasting here?
If you're participating meaningfully, that's reason enough. Obviously you're getting something out of it. The least you're getting is mental exercise, the most, further of conviction of your beliefs. |
Then you'll love this.
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
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08/05/2008 11:54:08 AM · #331 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by RonB:
Be careful - be very, very careful to never quote the United States Supreme Court's decision... Because, according to the logic you employ with Jesus quoting Moses, it seems that if you QUOTE it, you must agree with it, even though it is no longer applicable. |
Nobody considers the Supreme Court to be the will of an omniscient deity, so you'll have to point to the update where God says His will is no longer applicable. |
Loaded question, as usual.
There is no update where God says His will is no longer applicable. There are, however, several passages in the New Testament where Scripture says that the laws and proscriptions of the Old Testament are no longer applicable to believers - e.g.:
"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes."
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.""
"What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."
"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility."
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08/05/2008 11:56:12 AM · #332 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
do we truly know what God's intentions were? I think I know, I won't really know until I ask God. |
Then it's too late. "Oh, you mean I WAS supposed to obey the Sabbath or be put to death? My bad!" |
Ok, I kind of laughed at that comment and I'm stumped on how to respond. |
Well, the bottom line is if everything's REALLY set up that way then there will be precious few souls in heaven, I daresay :-) |
In other words, the authors of the bible had no way of knowing the future makeup of mankind, and the logistical impossibilities of forcing an entire world of billions of people to adhere to the strict orthodox interpretations of their law.
The law was made for a small tribal desert community that the lawmakers never imagined would change from what it was. |
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08/05/2008 11:57:19 AM · #333 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
If your rights, welfare or societal status were based on the assumed Will of a unicorn, wouldn't you participate in the discussion? |
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08/05/2008 12:01:06 PM · #334 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
If your rights, welfare or societal status were based on the assumed Will of a unicorn, wouldn't you participate in the discussion? |
 scalvert Just out of curiosity, what do you believe? And what do you think of me as a Christian? Just wondering
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08/05/2008 12:04:04 PM · #335 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
...and this comment would be germaine to the discussion at hand because???
Perhaps you might also take into consideration the fact that there exist a plethora of gods which are NOT mentioned in the bible that seemingly are of no significance to Christians... like those of North American natives.
Sadly, from this man's perspective, Christianity has not demonstrated itself to be the most tolerant and understanding of religions.
Ray |
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08/05/2008 12:24:54 PM · #336 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by farfel53:
If YOU read it, Louis, you'll see passages of N.T. that indicate the law was given to the Jews, i.e. Israel. By "grace" the Gentiles, i.e. the rest of us, can partake of the salvation offered to Israel, but not by works of the law, i.e. keeping the temple ordinances. By faith we are "grafted" into the family, not by keeping the Sabbath or following the dietary laws. Paul writes extensively, and the writer to Hebrews recounts the parallels and clarifys.
And there is NO contradiction at all. You only don't understand my viewpoint. Though I am not commanded to follow O.T. law, I DO study it, regarding it as something important to the overall understanding. I don't toss it off as unimportant and refuse to read it or learn from it. The gospel is to be found in O.T.
But not if you don't look for it. |
I understand the position. Remember, I was there, lock, stock, and barrel. Now I'm on the outside looking in, and from my point of view, what you've written merely confirms what I consider to be the reality of the situation: you must, in effect, disregard scripture in order to accept it. People of faith have no alternative if they want to actually live in the world in a reasonable way.
Incidentally, when was the last time a fundamentalist believer in the West cut off their hand or gouged out their eye in order to gain salvation? |
How does my writing that I do study the OT law, and consider what we're to learn from it, confirm that I "must, in effect, disregard it"?
I don't get your chain of thought. If you WERE part of it, but tossed it because you can't accept the hard parts or can't bend your will to His, I don't think you DO understand my position.
And I'm sorry for the "drive-by" commentary, as you put it. I'll try to be as vanilla as possible, and not ever express any disappointment, exasperation, or dry humor...and just try to leave that to you! Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk.
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08/05/2008 12:25:45 PM · #337 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
If your rights, welfare or societal status were based on the assumed Will of a unicorn, wouldn't you participate in the discussion? |
Yeah, you're losing a lot by not being a Christian aren't you? |
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08/05/2008 12:26:39 PM · #338 |
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Just out of curiosity, what do you believe? And what do you think of me as a Christian? Just wondering |
I believe today's faith is no different than that of the Greeks, Norse or Aztec. If dropped into an ancient city or any modern society, you'd find people absolutely convinced that they were following the will and hearing the voice of whatever deity(ies) they were taught to believe in. They would point to the obviousness if his/her/their works in nature, the traditional "history" of that faith, and quote people or text claiming it's true as proof that it's true. They would back up their convictions with matching passages and personal experiences, and assume that any contradictory messages were either intended for someone else or beyond their comprehension. They would find comfort in the belief that they were doing the right thing, and call upon that deity for help or blessings as if it were a DJ taking requests. They would gravitate toward others who believe as they do, leading to natural segregation and innate suspicion or even outright hatred of outsiders. In short, people believe what they want to believe simply because they believe it, and use that belief to justify their actions (good or bad). The stories and names are different, but the principles have never changed.
To answer your second question... I DON'T think of you as a Christian, just as I don't think of you as a Unicornist. I think of you as a person. ;-)
Message edited by author 2008-08-05 12:29:15. |
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08/05/2008 12:29:20 PM · #339 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by farfel53:
I have to somewhat agree with one earlier that thought this was like playing tennis without a ball. Lots of huffing and puffing and sweating, and nobody gets anywhere. |
I think the drive-by commentary that adds nothing to the conversation except flip remarks about how stupid we all look should be ignored. Wouldn't a person with better things to do look smarter by saying nothing, rather than pointing out how much time they're not wasting here?
If you're participating meaningfully, that's reason enough. Obviously you're getting something out of it. The least you're getting is mental exercise, the most, further of conviction of your beliefs. |
Then you'll love this.
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
You mean you don't believe in unicorns?!?!?! |
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08/05/2008 12:29:29 PM · #340 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Phil:
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
...and this comment would be germaine to the discussion at hand because???
Perhaps you might also take into consideration the fact that there exist a plethora of gods which are NOT mentioned in the bible that seemingly are of no significance to Christians... like those of North American natives.
Sadly, from this man's perspective, Christianity has not demonstrated itself to be the most tolerant and understanding of religions.
Ray |
Nor do you see me consistantly pointing what I consider the hypocrisies of those Native American Gods do you?
And I also never read where Christians are supposed to be the most tolerant of other religions. |
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08/05/2008 12:35:08 PM · #341 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by farfel53:
I have to somewhat agree with one earlier that thought this was like playing tennis without a ball. Lots of huffing and puffing and sweating, and nobody gets anywhere. |
I think the drive-by commentary that adds nothing to the conversation except flip remarks about how stupid we all look should be ignored. Wouldn't a person with better things to do look smarter by saying nothing, rather than pointing out how much time they're not wasting here?
If you're participating meaningfully, that's reason enough. Obviously you're getting something out of it. The least you're getting is mental exercise, the most, further of conviction of your beliefs. |
Then you'll love this.
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
You mean you don't believe in unicorns?!?!?! |
Well duh. Of course I do. |
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08/05/2008 12:35:38 PM · #342 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
If your rights, welfare or societal status were based on the assumed Will of a unicorn, wouldn't you participate in the discussion? |
Yeah, you're losing a lot by not being a Christian aren't you? |
If your laws were enacted on Sharia principles according to the beliefs of the Taliban would you lose a lot by not being a Muslim? |
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08/05/2008 12:42:52 PM · #343 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
How does my writing that I do study the OT law, and consider what we're to learn from it, confirm that I "must, in effect, disregard it"? |
Consider this: Why is it that you don't cut off your hand when it offends you, as Jesus commanded? Because it's highly impracticle. You are therefore compelled to choose those parts of the bible that you are practically able to abide by. You necessarily disregard the rest. If you now say that this particular verse is more parable than literal, that doesn't diminish the fact that you've selected to interpret it this way in order to live by it practically.
Originally posted by farfel53:
If you WERE part of it, but tossed it because you can't accept the hard parts or can't bend your will to His, I don't think you DO understand my position. |
You've assumed you know why a disbeliever has become a disbeliever. The more obvious answer to the question of why an atheist is an atheist is that the whole thing is patently unreasonable, and in the light of reason, fails miserably as an adequate way for the atheist to interpret the universe. It has nothing to do with "hard parts", or of being intractable in the face of "his will". Considering that an atheist doesn't even believe "he" exists, "his will" would hardly be of any consequence, now, would it?
Originally posted by farfel53:
And I'm sorry for the "drive-by" commentary, as you put it. I'll try to be as vanilla as possible, and not ever express any disappointment, exasperation, or dry humor...and just try to leave that to you! Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk. |
Erm.. I wasn't talking about you. Read more carefully. |
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08/05/2008 12:43:40 PM · #344 |
Originally posted by Phil:
[quote=Louis]
Then you'll love this.
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
Okay. The argument here isn't strictly a belief in God Vs. non-belief in God. It is a 'discussion' of belief in the Bible as the word of God.
I fully believe in God. Its just not the same God Christians believe in. I do not hold the Bible to be the word of God, I hold it to be the word of man, and only man.
I find it fascinating that Christians often act as is their God is the only god and that if you don't believe in their god you believe in no god. |
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08/05/2008 12:58:24 PM · #345 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
do we truly know what God's intentions were? I think I know, I won't really know until I ask God. |
Then it's too late. "Oh, you mean I WAS supposed to obey the Sabbath or be put to death? My bad!" |
Ok, I kind of laughed at that comment and I'm stumped on how to respond. |
Well, the bottom line is if everything's REALLY set up that way then there will be precious few souls in heaven, I daresay :-)
R. |
Assuming that God exists and the Bible is his law, why would you expect heaven to be crowded? |
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08/05/2008 12:59:13 PM · #346 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
If your rights, welfare or societal status were based on the assumed Will of a unicorn, wouldn't you participate in the discussion? |
Yeah, you're losing a lot by not being a Christian aren't you? |
If your laws were enacted on Sharia principles according to the beliefs of the Taliban would you lose a lot by not being a Muslim? |
Are Muslims Christians?
Shouldn't you start a thread about this? |
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08/05/2008 01:05:46 PM · #347 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Assuming that God exists and the Bible is his law, why would you expect heaven to be crowded? |
I'm not "expecting" anything, I'm just sayin'...
R.
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08/05/2008 01:06:30 PM · #348 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
I find it fascinating that Christians often act as is their God is the only god and that if you don't believe in their god you believe in no god. |
Why would you find that fascinating? Sorry Charlie but it is impossible to be a Christian and believe that there are other Gods. |
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08/05/2008 01:06:35 PM · #349 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
Know what I find more fascinating than people who actually believe in God?
The people who have such a vast amount of time to argue something they consider as real as a unicorn. |
If your rights, welfare or societal status were based on the assumed Will of a unicorn, wouldn't you participate in the discussion? |
Yeah, you're losing a lot by not being a Christian aren't you? |
If your laws were enacted on Sharia principles according to the beliefs of the Taliban would you lose a lot by not being a Muslim? |
Are Muslims Christians?
Shouldn't you start a thread about this? |
Both are faithful to a God.
and not really, the analogy is entirely valid.
Message edited by author 2008-08-05 13:07:35. |
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08/05/2008 01:10:13 PM · #350 |
Originally posted by Phil:
Nor do you see me consistantly pointing what I consider the hypocrisies of those Native American Gods do you?
And I also never read where Christians are supposed to be the most tolerant of other religions. |
What you consider hypocrisies are no less a firm belief by the faithful... which seemingly is what Christians believe...why is one given more credence than the other.
With regards to tolerance, you are absolutely right... tolerance does not seem to be at the forefront of christian dogma.
Ray |
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