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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Professional Photographers are so Stingy
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 07/10/2008 12:16:42 AM · #1
I only half apologize for the title.

I've been looking for a job for over 8 months now and I'm going to explode if I see one more huge-name photographer offering a full-time position in a giant, expensive city, with a minimum commitment of three months to two years, with absolutely no pay.

These positions are aimed at students or the "Just Graduated." Have any of them even heard of college loans? How can any of these people expect students or recent graduates to be able to afford working full-time (or more!) in NYC or LA when we aren't making a cent!?

So many people complain that their photos have been stolen or that the digital age has caused photographers' salaries to drop or that people don't think they should have to pay for pictures that are so widely available. You have no idea. Try being someone looking for an "entry level position." "Entry level" in photo-job-search-speak means that you're not worth the gum on the bottom of the photographer's Gucci shoes. The worst part is that most of the people that don't want to pay you are the only ones that can actually afford it. But since they have such a throw-your-weight-around reputation, they expect you to fight with each other for the "experience" so you can all starve and live in a cardboard box until your minimum stay is over. Then you can finally write that training with huge-name photographer on your resume and hope the next person will pay you anything.

Frankly, I think that's beyond ridiculous.

Are we young photographers really worth nothing?
 07/10/2008 01:03:41 AM · #2
I'm not in your shoes since this is not my profession but a hobby with benefits from time to time. I will say though that getting real world experience under a true pro is invaluable and will help you more down the road. Working a second, paying job, while working and learning under one of these photogs might be a good move to really jump start your career. Either way I feel for you having a hard time finding work, bestwishes to you.
 07/10/2008 01:14:56 AM · #3
I guarantee you that every one of these potential "assistants" wants to pick their photographer's brains clean and then strike out on their own to make their own name and reputation. I guarantee you that just the fact of having worked for, say (back in my day) an Avedon was enough to open doors and get you commissions, if you had a book to back up the experience.

These 3 months-to-a-year of working with a world-class pro are priceless, worth FAR more in terms of your future than any photography degree you may have acquired. I have actually heard of some artists CHARGING people for the privilege of working with them. Now, you may think that's wacky, and I guess in some ways it is, but it's a simple fact that one form or another of apprenticeship has been with us for centuries, and probably always will be.

I don't think it's anywhere near as outrageous as you do, obviously. I see it as part of the cost of educating yourself.

R.
 07/10/2008 02:30:58 AM · #4
We're willing to pay for a college education that may well be useless in the real world, but the education and credentials we'd get from working for, and learning from, a top photographer we want to be paid for :)
 07/10/2008 02:37:01 AM · #5
Think of these opportunities as unpaid internships, you'll learn a great deal that you simply cannot in a classroom.

If your loans are from the US government, you can have repayment deferred for up to a year if you are struggling financially. In any event, you don't have to start repayment for 6 months after graduation.

I can guarantee that it will be 6 months to a year before you're actually contributing to the success of the photographer's business and ironically, that's about the time most assistants stay at their first job. As the Chinese say, to taste success, you must first eat bitter.

Message edited by author 2008-07-10 02:44:33.
 07/10/2008 07:26:10 AM · #6
Give me his name, i'll work/learn for free no problemo.

But I do understand your point though, but mine takes precedence. ;\
 07/10/2008 08:04:55 AM · #7
Originally posted by BeeCee:
We're willing to pay for a college education that may well be useless in the real world, but the education and credentials we'd get from working for, and learning from, a top photographer we want to be paid for :)

Being just graduated myself, I think this is part of the frustration: we go to college because we're told that's what we have to do these days to get a good job, and now upon graduating we're told that our degree doesn't count in this case, and we have to pretty much dish out again to apprentice.

Frankly, I don't think working with anyone is worth doing for free. Just out out of school we may not be Ansel Adams, but we do have some talents and skills. And if the job is anything like the internship I did while in college, we'll be lucky if we even get to touch the camera. So yeah, I'd expect to be paid something for doing the gopher work. Doesn't have to be a lot, just enough to survive on while I work as an "apprentice."
 07/10/2008 09:51:25 AM · #8
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:

Being just graduated myself, I think this is part of the frustration: we go to college because we're told that's what we have to do these days to get a good job, and now upon graduating we're told that our degree doesn't count in this case, and we have to pretty much dish out again to apprentice.

Frankly, I don't think working with anyone is worth doing for free. Just out out of school we may not be Ansel Adams, but we do have some talents and skills. And if the job is anything like the internship I did while in college, we'll be lucky if we even get to touch the camera. So yeah, I'd expect to be paid something for doing the gopher work. Doesn't have to be a lot, just enough to survive on while I work as an "apprentice."


Just because you have a degree doesn't guarantee you a job. When I interview people I'll take the person with 4 years "real world" experience, over the person with a four year degree any day. Books can teach you the basic fundamentals, but experience is what makes you great. And working with a great pro gets you a lot of experience.

If you all feel you are talented enough coming out of school, then open your own studio and put that stingy pro out of business, with your talents.
 07/14/2008 11:25:32 AM · #9
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I guarantee you that every one of these potential "assistants" wants to pick their photographer's brains clean and then strike out on their own to make their own name and reputation.

Yup, Like any plumber, electrician, pick a profession. Why is a photg special in this sense? All history working with a particular employer will open some doors and close others regardless of profession. I sign non-competes & secrecy papers and in the end the knowledge still walks out the door with me because conceptually it's useful in other places even if the details are different.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
but it's a simple fact that one form or another of apprenticeship has been with us for centuries, and probably always will be.

All modern apprenticeships I have seen for whatever trade are paid - not well paid but paid.... I though there was a law about minimum wages in the US :shrug:

Message edited by author 2008-07-14 11:27:18.
 07/14/2008 12:12:39 PM · #10
Originally posted by robs:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I guarantee you that every one of these potential "assistants" wants to pick their photographer's brains clean and then strike out on their own to make their own name and reputation.

Yup, Like any plumber, electrician, pick a profession. Why is a photg special in this sense? All history working with a particular employer will open some doors and close others regardless of profession. I sign non-competes & secrecy papers and in the end the knowledge still walks out the door with me because conceptually it's useful in other places even if the details are different.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
but it's a simple fact that one form or another of apprenticeship has been with us for centuries, and probably always will be.

All modern apprenticeships I have seen for whatever trade are paid - not well paid but paid.... I though there was a law about minimum wages in the US :shrug:


Well, yeah, but it's kind of beside the point. Take me, for example; I wasn't famous, except in a small way locally, so I didn't have people beating a path to my door willing to work for free for a year or six months or whatever to absorb knowledge from me, but even SO: we always had more potential assistants than we could use, and every one we ended up using worked with us for a couple weeks for free as we evaluated them. We had dozens to choose from, and you never know what you're getting until you put 'em to work.

Remember, these are completely untrained people; they may have photography degrees, but they don't know a THING about the real world of photography, working in the field, working in the studio under pressure, dealing with clients and models and so forth, they don't know any of this. Every single time I took a new assistant out on a job, it cost me money to do so; money in lost productivity, primarily.

Now if I'M willing to make an investment like that in a new assistant's future, why shouldn't HE be willing also? It's a verbal commitment; "We'll give it a run, see how it goes; if we click, I'll hire you for $X a week..."

I'd grant you that if I tried to run an entire business, indefinitely, with unpaid labor that would be really pathetic; but nobody's doing that. The top positions are always filled with people who get along well with the photographer, and are usually well-paid. The positions we're talking about here are entry-level, bare-knuckles stuff. A lot of it's even "make-work", you've got to be trying new people out all the time, because turnover is a constant in the business.

R.
 07/14/2008 02:46:22 PM · #11
Originally posted by geinafets:
I only half apologize for the title.

I've been looking for a job for over 8 months now and I'm going to explode if I see one more huge-name photographer offering a full-time position in a giant, expensive city, with a minimum commitment of three months to two years, with absolutely no pay.

These positions are aimed at students or the "Just Graduated." Have any of them even heard of college loans? How can any of these people expect students or recent graduates to be able to afford working full-time (or more!) in NYC or LA when we aren't making a cent!?


Despite having a law degree at some expense, I had to spend another whole year's postgraduate higher education at my own expense before I could get a paid trainee lawyer's job. If I had not done a law degree, it would have been two. Studying was followed by two years working at a very basic level of salary as a trainee, before qualifying and earning enough to buy a lens or three.

To do what I wanted to do, it took a significant investment of time and money - the same as you are going through.

Nowadays I am far more stressed and busy and financially stretched than I was then (I used to have so few commitments, even counting my student loans). I would recommend you to enjoy a fun, if frugal, existence for a couple of years and get the most out of your opportunities so as to set yourself up for later life!
 07/23/2008 12:08:40 PM · #12
Ever been to college? They have this thing called an Internship (some places it's an externship). You pay the college the tuition and go work for free for a business - to get the experience, the resume creds, connections, etc.

Working for free is a better deal since you don't have to pay tuition too!

That's a tad toungue in cheek, but I get a number of inquiries from people that know nothing (and admit it) but want to work, or as they often say 'I want to learn about photography'. Am I a school? No I am not. I understand I may have to train a new employee but many want to learn to go and start their own business - taking my 'trade secrets' with them.

And some photogs get many inquiries - and people willing to pay their dues as it's called, and work for free. Then they can go to another photog, now with experience, and get a paying job. If you ran a business and had a line of people willing to work for free, why not use them?

I'm not saying it's right just giving you the view from the inside, so to speak.

As to the minimum wage thing...yeah, in theory it's there. Go talk to a restaurant manager though, divide the hours worked by his 'salary' and you may find he's not making minimum wage. Offer a salary, benefits and a title and you can get people to work themselves well beyond reason.
 07/23/2008 12:52:40 PM · #13
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Ever been to college? They have this thing called an Internship (some places it's an externship). You pay the college the tuition and go work for free for a business - to get the experience, the resume creds, connections, etc.



I went to college. I got paid more at my internship than I had for any job I'd had previously; $14/hr I believe.
 07/23/2008 01:33:41 PM · #14
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I went to college. I got paid more at my internship than I had for any job I'd had previously; $14/hr I believe.

Same here. One Summer internship nearly paid for my last two years of college. Imagination and effort still have value even if you don't have all the technical experience yet. Even if you're willing to work with a pro just for the experience, that pro usually gets some benefit from having an assistant, and failing to recognize that is a product of greed and ego IMO.
 07/23/2008 01:53:31 PM · #15
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I went to college. I got paid more at my internship than I had for any job I'd had previously; $14/hr I believe.

Same here. One Summer internship nearly paid for my last two years of college. Imagination and effort still have value even if you don't have all the technical experience yet. Even if you're willing to work with a pro just for the experience, that pro usually gets some benefit from having an assistant, and failing to recognize that is a product of greed and ego IMO.


Since I really had nothing else to do that summer and my employer had more work than people, I basically worked all the time and made more in overtime than I did base pay. I usually worked 1pm-2am. Once I hit 40 hrs for the week, my pay went to time and a half and after 60hr, I got double time, which continued until I had a day off. I usually worked 13 days in a row, so I made out like a bandit. They didn't care about paying me all that money because the work had to get done and I was still cheaper than their regular employees. Some of them had been operating that way for years, I don't know how they did it. When school started back up, I had $15K in the bank.
 07/23/2008 02:22:01 PM · #16
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Ever been to college? They have this thing called an Internship (some places it's an externship). You pay the college the tuition and go work for free for a business - to get the experience, the resume creds, connections, etc.



I went to college. I got paid more at my internship than I had for any job I'd had previously; $14/hr I believe.


I'm in my second year of internship right now and I'm making way more than any job I've had in the past. $23/hr is what they start us at this year and any time over 8 hours in a day that you work is time and a half so the 40 hours doesn't even matter. Internships are wonderful, this one is paying for my rent for the entire school year no problem and I have cash left over for everything else.

Edit to add: But then again, I'm not in even close to the same field as you. And there aren't very many "trade secrets" so to say. But paid internships are out there for everything if you look around.

Message edited by author 2008-07-23 14:24:06.
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