Toy guns,Should they be banned? - DPChallenge Forums

07/18/2008 12:33:47 PM · #201

Dude those articles are from papers around the country they cite the source in the blurb I bolded the source so you could see it! It is hardly propaganda it is fact plain and simple. And I am glad your baseball bat has defended you with valor I just pray it never meets up with a .357mag.

Like this:

"East Valley Tribune, Scottsdale, AZ, 3/25/08
State: AZ
American Rifleman Issue: 3/25/2008
An elderly Scottsdale, AZ woman was still recovering from a break-in late Thursday night by an intruder who demanded money and threatened to set fire to her garage, when the same intruder turned up early Saturday morning. When the 78-year-old woman heard him breaking into her house for the second time, she grabbed her handgun and fired two shots, scaring him away. Police caught up with the uninjured intruder and took him into custody. "

or this

New York Post, New York, NY, 09/09/06
State: ny
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2006
When a Harlem thug saw Margaret Johnson, a grandmother who has been confined to a wheelchair since a 2001 injury, he thought he had an easy target. The friendly Johnson said hello to the man, but according to police, he responded by grabbing her around the neck in an attempt to steal her necklace. But he had underestimated Johnson, an NRA member and accomplished target shooter who was on her way to the gun range. She reached for her registered pistol and shot her assailant, sending him running. "There's not much to it. Somebody tried to mug me and I shot him," said Johnson. "It was very scary." Police caught up with Johnson's assailant half a block away.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

07/18/2008 12:40:03 PM · #202

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

When considering the amount of people in NYC these still are rare occurences.. I'm not against guns......(Haven't I said this enough) I'm just saying it won't happen like you think. (and my 9mm has bailed me out a time or two...I'd use this against a .357)

Spork99

OM System OM-1

07/18/2008 12:44:17 PM · #203

Originally posted by neophyte:

I the end why not keep cell phone near your bed as well as your weapon of choice. And when possible, leave the shooting to the pros......

Certainly, although I'd think using a land line would be better since the 911 call center would be able to get your address from your number. With a cell phone, you could be anywhere and while some phones are GPS enabled and it's possible to track the signal, many 911 call centers do not have that capability.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

07/18/2008 12:51:55 PM · #204

Originally posted by neophyte:

When considering the amount of people in NYC these still are rare occurrences..

If you have the time read some more you will see it happens more than one would think.

Originally posted by neophyte:

I'm not against guns......(Haven't I said this enough)

Cool

Originally posted by neophyte:

I'm just saying it won't happen like you think. (and my 9mm has bailed me out a time or two...I'd use this against a .357)

It never does...

07/18/2008 09:28:29 PM · #205

Originally posted by "neophyte":

The situation you describe all but never happens. Have you heard of a home robberry on the 40th floor?

Yes, I've heard of home on the 3rd floor or above robbed, threatened, raped, etc.

Originally posted by "Spazmo99":

I've been in an apartment that was broken into while I was there. The criminals were armed. Fortunately, once I got into my bedroom, so was I. Once they realized the situation was likely to end in a close quarters gunfight, they left, just as quick as they came. The same creeps beat and killed their next victims over the course of a few hours.

You're mistaken, didn't you hear Neophyte. All but never happens.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

I the end why not keep cell phone near your bed as well as your weapon of choice.

Why bother, police are NOT going to respond in time to be of any good. So you can just call the police via you landline to come and file the police report and carry out the dead bodies of the criminals.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

The NRA? No agenda there

Nope, except that which is stated. To preserve the American people's legal right to bear arms. That said, they are open about their agenda. And just because they have an agenda does not mean the facts are invalid.

This compared to the mainstream media that also has an agenda but likes to parlay itself as unbiased.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

But those who have small children should keep them well guarded and how quickly can you obtain the gun, take off the lock, find the bullets and be ready for action?

You can also train one's children so they are knowledge of firearms and firearm safety. Keep the bullets in the gun and have a biometric gun safe.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Itâ��s statistically highly unlikely. I've lived in some of the worst neighborhoods in some of the worst apartment buildings and never have been victimized or had it happen in the buildings I lived in.

That's fine, I know of others who can say otherwise. And while it may not have been shoot outs. It was made clear that it would have been such if they didn't leave.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

When considering the amount of people in NYC these still are rare occurences.

And that makes me want to be that victim, why? And NYC is far from the worst of cities in the U.S.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

I'm just saying it won't happen like you think. (and my 9mm has bailed me out a time or two...I'd use this against a .357)

I'm confused, you're saying it won't happen but that it has?

07/18/2008 10:06:47 PM · #206

Originally posted by theSaj:

Originally posted by "neophyte":
The situation you describe all but never happens. Have you heard of a home robberry on the 40th floor?

Yes, I've heard of home on the 3rd floor or above robbed, threatened, raped, etc.

Originally posted by "Spazmo99":
I've been in an apartment that was broken into while I was there. The criminals were armed. Fortunately, once I got into my bedroom, so was I. Once they realized the situation was likely to end in a close quarters gunfight, they left, just as quick as they came. The same creeps beat and killed their next victims over the course of a few hours.

You're mistaken, didn't you hear Neophyte. All but never happens.

Originally posted by "neophyte":
I the end why not keep cell phone near your bed as well as your weapon of choice.

Why bother, police are NOT going to respond in time to be of any good. So you can just call the police via you landline to come and file the police report and carry out the dead bodies of the criminals.

Originally posted by "neophyte":
The NRA? No agenda there

Nope, except that which is stated. To preserve the American people's legal right to bear arms. That said, they are open about their agenda. And just because they have an agenda does not mean the facts are invalid.

This compared to the mainstream media that also has an agenda but likes to parlay itself as unbiased.

Originally posted by "neophyte":
But those who have small children should keep them well guarded and how quickly can you obtain the gun, take off the lock, find the bullets and be ready for action?

You can also train one's children so they are knowledge of firearms and firearm safety. Keep the bullets in the gun and have a biometric gun safe.

Originally posted by "neophyte":
Itâ��s statistically highly unlikely. I've lived in some of the worst neighborhoods in some of the worst apartment buildings and never have been victimized or had it happen in the buildings I lived in.

That's fine, I know of others who can say otherwise. And while it may not have been shoot outs. It was made clear that it would have been such if they didn't leave.

Originally posted by "neophyte":
When considering the amount of people in NYC these still are rare occurences.

And that makes me want to be that victim, why? And NYC is far from the worst of cities in the U.S.

Originally posted by "neophyte":
I'm just saying it won't happen like you think. (and my 9mm has bailed me out a time or two...I'd use this against a .357)

I'm confused, you're saying it won't happen but that it has?

What's your issue?

Some use thier guns in the context of their employment. Your emotion seems to be narrowing your perception. There's really no need for the sarcasm. No one wants to or should be a victim.

If you tell the police that people are in your house, I bet the response time would be fast. I know when I was chasing the person who stole my car they were behind me within 2 minutes.

You hear about these occurances because they're rare. And they are. Even the story pointed out in NYC by Grand Wazoo is from 2006. With almost 15 mllion people you'd think, by your outlook there would be more. More over nether is a story of an apartment robbery....Your perception that a gun in the house or apartment would be a deterent or resolve the issue in the favor of the home owner is not supported by real facts, the opposite is .....Sorry if I upset you but it is what it is.

Message edited by author 2008-07-18 22:15:46.

07/18/2008 10:24:42 PM · #207

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Some use thier guns in the context of their employment. Your emotion seems to be narrowing your perception. There's really no need for the sarcasm. No one wants to or should be a victim.

I just get tired of quotes like "all but never happens". Sorry, lots of things all but never happen. I think dismissing people's viewpoints with such a comment is inappropriate. I think that's why many have been rebutting hard against your comments.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

If you tell the police that people are in your house, I bet the response time would be fast. I know when I was chasing the person who stole my car they were behind me within 2 minutes.

Considering the three times I've called 911 garnered no response. And the fact that DC already had a case that decided that police are not obligated to respond. I find such assurances of police about as worthwild as throwing salt at cruise missile.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Your perception that a gun in the house or apartment would be a deterent or resolve the issue in the favor of the home owner is not supported by real facts, the opposite is

Okay, show the fact and not from the standpoint of some Brady group.

07/18/2008 11:00:30 PM · #208

Reread my posts... I'm not against guns. But I look at it like this. I'll probably never be hit by lightning but it happens. Other than the common sense approaches for prevention, How much of my resources and time should I use to avoid the improbable.... One of my close friend's father saw a burgler next door and grabbed his pistol. This was no ordinary gun toter. He'd won shooting tournaments at the state level. The robber saw him approaching and though my friends father shot first and wounded the thief, he was shot and died on the porch of his neighbor's house. It never turns out like you think...Research the numbers yourself. You'll see I'm right. Funny how you state that the Brady bill people would have an agenda but not the NRA. A little one sided? no? (I support niether.)I support responsible gun usage. And decisions that are made with common sense based on correct unbiased information instead of emotion.

Message edited by author 2008-07-18 23:03:35.

07/19/2008 01:02:39 PM · #209

Originally posted by "neophyte":

I wonder how many people have been robbed, raped, assaulted, or otherwise had their life threatened. While a few thousand in 15 million may not seem like much. When you're one of those few thousand, it's your whole world.

And frankly, a lot more people are threatened by crime than struck by lightning. Guess we should remove all those lightning rods.

***

Originally posted by "neophyte":

The robber saw him approaching and though my friends father shot first and wounded the thief, he was shot and died on the porch of his neighbor's house.

And guess what, he would have probably been the next house. And shot dead anyways. Frankly, if the guy was armed with a gun he should have kept shooting.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Research the numbers yourself. You'll see I'm right.

Actually, I have, and my research showed that you are wrong. Furthermore, most people I know who have protected themselves with their handguns never reported the matter as shots were never fired. The would be attackers backing down and looking for targets. Those thousands and thousands of incidents go unreported.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Funny how you state that the Brady bill people would have an agenda but not the NRA.

No, I never stated that. If you'd like to misquote me, please feel free. I believe I stated that the NRA does have an agenda. But it's a stated agenda. And the fact that they have an agenda does not mean their facts should be dimissed.

In stating the Brady bill people, yes, I believe they have facts but I also believe they misrepresent the issues and the facts. Like the term assault rifle, which was a reference to a military grade rifle that could be fired in full or at least burst mode. They've applied it to basically just about every semi-automatic rifle.

That said, I also grew up in a city and had classmates who were runners for gun dealers. The Brady bill did nothing to hurt their business. Criminals will always have access to guns because they're criminals. Banning law abiding citizens from being able to defend themselves against armed criminals is foolishness. The banter to call the police is about as useful as the advice I was given in elementary schools to talk to the teachers about bullies. They never do anything, and the only solution you have is to retaliate with equal or greater force. And yes, people will claim fighting never solves anything. However, fighting solved more for me than any any any other thing I ever did in high school. If a criminal breaks into my house, the last thing I want to be doing is cowering in the bedroom defenseless.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

I support responsible gun usage. And decisions that are made with common sense based on correct unbiased information instead of emotion.

Frankly, I think you're dismissing and labelling a lot of people as having made their decisions based on biased info and full of emotion. My point is, all people are biased and any information interpreted by a human will be done so with a bias and emotion.

But that DOES NOT mean they have not weighed the matter wisely. And made a good decision for them and their family. *shrugs* I guess I just feel that you are insinuating such.

My hope is that I never need to use a firearm to defend myself or my family. And if that happens, the firearm can simple age and become a family heirloom and or continue to be a sporting tool just like archery or a set of golf clubs. (Or the Louisville Slugger by the side of one man's bed.)

If it's as rare as you say, then good. Cause I'd rather not take man's life. But if it's between my wife and daughter's lives and anyone elses - I will.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

07/19/2008 06:24:23 PM · #210

I'm not dismissing anyone or their decisions. You're way too emotional.

I wonder how many people have been robbed, raped, assaulted, or otherwise had their life threatened. While a few thousand in 15 million may not seem like much. When you're one of those few thousand, it's your whole world.

I wonder how much a difference a gun would've meant or how many would've ended up dead by their own weapons. People who are struck by lightning have had a life changing experience too. That doesn't change the probability.

Actually, I have, and my research showed that you are wrong. Furthermore, most people I know who have protected themselves with their handguns never reported the matter as shots were never fired. The would be attackers backing down and looking for targets. Those thousands and thousands of incidents go unreported

You can't be serious.... Your factual support is based on unreported incidents.. Then how do you know about them??? I talk to law enforment almost everyday. They tell me that most times just yelling that the police are on the way will scare off intruders.

Frankly, I think you're dismissing and labelling a lot of people as having made their decisions based on biased info and full of emotion. My point is, all people are biased and any information interpreted by a human will be done so with a bias and emotion.

Am I doing this as quickly as you're trying to dismiss my opinion.. Decisions based on emotion don't always turn out like you think. (Is that my arguement again?)

In stating the Brady bill people, yes, I believe they have facts but I also believe they misrepresent the issues and the facts. Like the term assault rifle, which was a reference to a military grade rifle that could be fired in full or at least burst mode. They've applied it to basically just about every semi-automatic rifle.

And the NRA reports aren't skewed... I guess its what side of the arguement you are determines who's viewpoint you agree with....Everyone dismisses facts and statistics that don't support their position.

And guess what, he would have probably been the next house. And shot dead anyways. Frankly, if the guy was armed with a gun he should have kept shooting.

Wrong....The house being broken into was home to drug dealers. Your Monday Morning statement is exactly what I'm stating against....You never know. This man was more proficient with a gun than either one of us could hope to be and he's pushing up daisies instead of spending time with his grandchildren. Which he'd be doing if he'd called the police instead..... Youâ��re a bit presumptuous (at best).

That said, I also grew up in a city and had classmates who were runners for gun dealers. The Brady bill did nothing to hurt their business. Criminals will always have access to guns because they're criminals. Banning law abiding citizens from being able to defend themselves against armed criminals is foolishness. The banter to call the police is about as useful as the advice I was given in elementary schools to talk to the teachers about bullies. They never do anything, and the only solution you have is to retaliate with equal or greater force. And yes, people will claim fighting never solves anything. However, fighting solved more for me than any any any other thing I ever did in high school. If a criminal breaks into my house, the last thing I want to be doing is cowering in the bedroom defenseless.

I've never supported gun control but if you want to misinterpret what I've written I can't control that. In high school they don't put you in jail for fighting. I too have been accused of being heavy handed and a bit too quick want to move it outside but with adulthood comes consequences, so I've learned and now practice restraint. (Ok...so I learned how to give some a good whack without leaving a mark and making sure no one witnesses.)

My hope is that I never need to use a firearm to defend myself or my family. And if that happens, the firearm can simple age and become a family heirloom and or continue to be a sporting tool just like archery or a set of golf clubs. (Or the Louisville Slugger by the side of one man's bed.)

If it's as rare as you say, then good. Cause I'd rather not take man's life. But if it's between my wife and daughter's lives and anyone elses - I will.

I have the same hope. I've survived worse scenerios than most of these you've descibed and tried to bring a bit of personal experince and another point of view to this discussion. My point being....You can rehearse it as much as you want, play it out in your head but when it happens it won't be like you think. A shoot out should be the last option. Understand the risks that come with gun ownership. Heroes don't always win.....

totaldis

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

07/19/2008 07:58:59 PM · #211

i'm not sure how this turned into a fight against neophyte but I think at this point it is WAY off the original topic.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

07/19/2008 08:04:32 PM · #212

Originally posted by totaldis:

i'm not sure how this turned into a fight against neophyte but I think at this point it is WAY off the original topic.

I think now it's just a pissing match.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/19/2008 08:11:31 PM · #213

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by totaldis:
i'm not sure how this turned into a fight against neophyte but I think at this point it is WAY off the original topic.

I think now it's just a pissing match.

Who's winning?

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

07/19/2008 08:45:34 PM · #214

Originally posted by "neophyte":

I wonder how much a difference a gun would've meant or how many would've ended up dead by their own weapons. People who are struck by lightning have had a life changing experience too. That doesn't change the probability.

If you exclude those dead by intention (ie: suicide) and those dead by alcohol (unless your going to blame automobiles as well). Then I'd wager that it's even a lower statistic per the number of guns in the U.S. than those who are victims of violent crime in NYC.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Your factual support is based on unreported incidents.

No, my factual support was based on statistics. But the fact that most incidents I've heard mentioned personally were not reported. Does lead me to conclude that the statistics are probably under-reported as well.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

I talk to law enforment almost everyday. They tell me that most times just yelling that the police are on the way will scare off intruders.

Maybe if you live in a town where 911 actually brings an officer to your home. For those of us who don't, yelling the police are on the way is simply a good method for alerting the criminals to where you are and getting you killed.

As for talking to law enforcement. My opinion of law enforcement is quite low. So that carries only a mediocrum of weight with me. Furthermore, many police would like no one but them to have guns (not going to happen). So many will try to dissuade citizens from handling things and tell them to let them do it. Except...they don't! Hence the citizen has too.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Am I doing this as quickly as you're trying to dismiss my opinion.. Decisions based on emotion don't always turn out like you think. (Is that my arguement again?)

Yes, I think you did this quicker than I did. You labelled peoples responses as merely being based on emotion. Well sorry sir, but my decision is NOT based on emotion. If it were based on emotion it would have been quite a different situation. My decision was based on the fact that from personal experience I found the police to be an unworthy and unreliable form of protection.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

And the NRA reports aren't skewed..

As I've said, everything is biased. The NRA reports will only share that which supports their view. That said, I think they tend not to exaggerate quite as much as the Brady advocates. But hey...that's just me.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

.Everyone dismisses facts and statistics that don't support their position.

That's pretty much what I said, in that everyone is biased. So it sounds like we're agreed and just arguing on semantics. So let's let this one rest.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Wrong....The house being broken into was home to drug dealers. Your Monday Morning statement is exactly what I'm stating against....You never know.

And that's EXACTLY my point. You never know. And if someone has broken into my house. And I along with my wife and daughter are shut in the bedroom with no where else to flee. You can damn well bet the farm on the fact that I want to be sitting there with a firearm. And if they come into the bedroom. They will find lead coming their way.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

This man was more proficient with a gun than either one of us could hope to be and he's pushing up daisies instead of spending time with his grandchildren.

Granted, he went out and met trouble. But I'm talking about trouble coming to me. And if it does - I'd like to even up the odds a bit.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

You can rehearse it as much as you want, play it out in your head but when it happens it won't be like you think.

I don't disagree with that. I just believe that when it happens - I'd rather have a firearm and than nothing. That said, I agree, it's better not to seek out trouble. Why push up daisies if you don't have too. But if trouble is there, and it's not leaving - give me a gun, please. (That's my point.)

Originally posted by "neophyte":

A shoot out should be the last option. Understand the risks that come with gun ownership.

Agreed...and I believe in understanding the responsibility. Hence, I frequent a local range to improve my skill. And even more importantly, to know where my skill is at. No point firing at 25 yds if you can't hit the broad side of a barn door. And doing such in an urban environment may mean someone else pays for your lack of skill and knowledge.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Heroes don't always win.....

Sadly, that is very true. That said, sheep seldom win against wolves.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. Justice is a well-armed sheep" - Benjamin Franklin

***

Actually, I think it's a confusion on semantics. Though I think it may be simply summed up as:

"You never know what might happen. Think twice about owning a gun."

VERSUS

"You never know what might happen. But I'd prefer to have the option of a gun."

***

I still support toy guns, even realistic ones. But think parents should teach kids to responsibly use them and pass on understanding of just what such toys means. Perhaps training tools is a better term than toys.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

07/19/2008 09:55:57 PM · #215

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by totaldis:
i'm not sure how this turned into a fight against neophyte but I think at this point it is WAY off the original topic.

I think now it's just a pissing match.

Who's winning?

I dunno, but they're facing a strong headwind.

07/19/2008 10:44:37 PM · #216

Dude...you live in York, PA.... how high is the crime there?
According to my data it rates a 2 on a scale of 1-10. A point below the national average.(Maybe when you lived in New Haven, CT I could take you more seriously. at least that ranks an 8) Where I live ranks an 8.(and the police arrive promptly in an emergency.) And I seemed to be much less paranoid about crime than you....How many times have you had to fire your weapon in self defense? Have you ever wounded or killed anyone?If the answers are no, I really hope it works out the way you think, God forbid it ever happens.

Your generalizations due to your own history with law enforcement seem to be the foundation to your arguement and I disagree. They're way more competent than you portray.

I do like how you only quote parts of my thread and try and pick each piece apart, but find it more interesting what you leave out. My arguement as a whole is strong and you haven't convinced me of much aside from thinking that you're a bit of a zealot. Your unreported incidents fact is unsustainable at best (because you've heard???). They could be unreported because they're not true...

My friend owns eleven apartment buildings throughout Waterbury, Hartford, and New Haven (more than 275 units)for more than 10 years and he's had one reported gunshot. One: total. They are in some of the worst neighborhoods in these cities. He has friends and family living in almost all of them, so his intel for what going on in his buildings is good and no reported shoot outs. Yeah, there are some break ins, Domestic disputes and a rare kitchen fire..He's even had to evict the occasional dealer but No gunshots or shoot-outs. It is as rare as I say. Regardless of the personal impact on those involved.

You try to jump on the "you never know" band wagon, But your posts are filled with "they should've or I will".... I repeat, (and I haven't even touched on the after effects of taking a life. talk about replaying something in your mind over and over)It doesn't happen like you think... regardless of your "confidence". When at all possible, leave it to the pros. If not, just think it through before you purchase a firearm. You seem to have thought this through but my position is as valid as yours and in my opinion more so... Good luck to you though....

I apologize to OP about the detour. I do think that the attitudes that exist about guns and their role in society directly affect how we view toy guns and that the fear of all guns can result in accidental shooting of children with toy guns..Perhaps this where I left the path.

Message edited by author 2008-07-20 10:26:04.

07/20/2008 09:59:56 PM · #217

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Dude...you live in York, PA.... how high is the crime there?

Dear Mr. Assumptive...

It's actually !@#$%ing high. Looking at the stats you were looking at, it was probably for most of York county. York city is actually regarded as having about twice the crime a city of it's size should.

How about this, you walk thru the city unarmed for a few nights. Then come talk to me. (If able..)

York is not a big city, but it's riddled with drugs and crime. We had six days out of June where there were not shootings. We get a lot of Baltimore overflow. Basically, the gang members that get chased out of Baltimore come up to York.

New Haven, has actually improved a great deal over the past decade or two. In 1991 it was the highest per capita homicide city in the nation.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Where I live ranks an 8.(and the police arrive promptly in an emergency.)

Good for you. Since I've never experienced police in conjunction with a timely response. I am not going to rely on that.

***

As for the statistics, not sure where you were getting yours or what year. But here are what I found, granted they are from 2005. The crime index is over double the US average.

* 13 murders (32.4 per 100,000)
* 39 rapes (97.2 per 100,000)
* 242 robberies (603.2 per 100,000)
* 119 assaults (296.6 per 100,000)
* 400 burglaries (997.1 per 100,000)
* 1,703 thefts (4245.0 per 100,000)
* 211 auto thefts (525.9 per 100,000)
* City-data.com crime index = 664.5 (higher means more crime, US average = 312.7)

***

Originally posted by "neophyte":

And I seemed to be much less paranoid about crime than you....

You've had police respond to your 911 calls. I have not...nuff said.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

How many times have you had to fire your weapon in self defense? Have you ever wounded or killed anyone?If the answers are no, I really hope it works out the way you think, God forbid it ever happens.

None...thankfully. And God forbid I ever have too. But if such a situation occurs, God please let me have the means to defend my family.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Your generalizations due to your own history with law enforcement seem to be the foundation to your arguement and I disagree. They're way more competent than you portray.

Well, it's nice that you disagree. So take it and sit on it sir.

I sir, speak from my own experience and experience of many others. And EVERY experience I have had has essentially shown me that the police are only there to take reports.

I've literally call 911 while a drunk/stone man who had become increasingly beligerent threatened a small cashier. Threatened her life. I called 911 reported the situation. To quote the response I received... "It's New Haven whad'ya expect us to do about it." Of course after the event when the police were called by the clerk. They sent three cruisers to take down the police report. "Bravo!!!"

Thank you sir. But while your police may be more professional, the one's I've dealt with have mostly not been so.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

I do like how you only quote parts of my thread and try and pick each piece apart, but find it more interesting what you leave out. My arguement as a whole is strong and you haven't convinced me of much aside from thinking that you're a bit of a zealot. Y

Sir, I have tried to respond to most of your points. To say otherwise while I've nearly bored the rest of the thread is simply wrong.

While I do not expect to convince you of my viewpoint. And you can look at me as a zealot. But I find you to have egotistical and narrow-minded. Unable to accept anyone who's stated that they feel they have reason to be able to protect their family. Even after one site member gave testimony to the fact that he is alive and others are dead because of that said fact.

Sir, I do not believe any preponderance of evidence could convince you to think otherwise.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Your unreported incidents fact is unsustainable at best (because you've heard???). They could be unreported because they're not true.

No sir, perhaps as a court of law. But you and I look at the world differently. And to me, the mere fact that something is not reported to the police does not equate to unsustainable in my act of judging matters.

I have numerous incidents that weren't reported to the police. Like watching a pair of mounted police see a gang of kids jumping people downtown. Turning their horses around and going the other way. And then being one of those kids jumped. Reason for the beat-down, a single crime...white skinned.

So since I am quite aware that the police are not the end all be all of the history of events. And numerous studies will show this. As it's quite well regarded that many rapes do not go reported. And many many incidents of child abuse and rape do not go reported.

So to mandate that the only fact be said reports is unsustainable a policy to me.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

My friend owns eleven apartment buildings throughout Waterbury, Hartford, and New Haven (more than 275 units)for more than 10 years and he's had one reported gunshot. One: total.

That's good for your friend.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

(and I haven't even touched on the after effects of taking a life. talk about replaying something in your mind over and over)It doesn't happen like you think... regardless of your "confidence".

Thank you kindly sir, I understand that fact. But I would much rather replay that scene in my head over and over again. Then replay the scene of my wife or daughter being harmed.

I pray, that I never have to bear either. But I have made an informed choice on which I would rather be cursed with.

The reason I am so offended by your posts, is that you tell me and others that we have not made such a decision.

And frankly, I think that is extremely rude.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

When at all possible, leave it to the pros.

There are no pros. What pros are you referring to? The ones that never show up? That laugh on the 911 call, but then send three cruisers to do paper work.

Sir, I label any man who tells me to trust my family's safety to such people an idiot. Now, I am not saying you're an idiot. Just don't tell me to trust my family's safety to such "pros".

Originally posted by "neophyte":

If not, just think it through before you purchase a firearm. You seem to have thought this through but my position is as valid as yours and in my opinion more so.

On this, i fully agree. Fully agree. And this was not a decision I entered into lightly. For years, although very supportive of the 2nd Amendment and gun rights in general. I never owned a gun. My reasoning. I was at peace with what would come after-life. And I had decided I did not want to trade my life for another's, even a criminals and potentially damn them death and hell. So while single, I decided I did not have a need for a firearm.

I am now married and have a beautiful daughter. And while I was willing to lose my own life in order not to take anothers. I am not willing to do the same with their lives. And as has been pointed out to me, even losing my life now will hurt my family just in the economic and emotional burden.

That combined by a failure on the part of the "Pros" on every occasion I have had need to call them. Only furthered my decision on the matter.

While it is my hope that police will be able to respond to any situation I may have need of them for. I am not able to put a full reliance on them. And to be honest, I've known a number of LEOs state the same thing. That they just can't be everywhere at once.

Truthfully, I think many LEOs have lost the motivation to risk their necks. Largely due to a poor performance on the part of the courts that will allow men with pages of violent criminal histories to be repeatedly released back on the streets. (Like the man who shot and killed the Philly sheriff.)

***

I will likewise apologize on the OT nature of this discussion. And do agree there is a strong tangential relationship on the view of guns in society and toy guns.

I can see how those who feel there is no room or role for gun ownership would likewise feel similarly to toy guns. Likewise, some may feel as I do, that a toy gun should be an opportunity to train and not merely a 'just a toy'.

07/21/2008 12:20:45 AM · #218

OMG... Now I'm laughing too hard. Yeah York, PA is a hot bed of criminal activity.......(I've been there a few times.) Better board up the windows and doors. They might be coming for you next. If you were really concerned about your family's safety, Perhaps you should move to a safer neighborhood. Although most of York has a crime rate below the national average. And if there's higher crime areas the law of averages would mean there are safer areas. And I've survived walking through worse cities than York....unarmed Thank you. Also In 1991 Bridgeport was the highest in the State for per capita homicide so how could New Haven be the highest in the nation?

Everyone I've met who talks like you are the first ones to hide and freeze when the bullets start flying. Like I've said, I hope it never happens to you.

I'm sure after reading your latest post that you've not understood one thing I've written. I'm personally against gun control.
All You're doing is ranting without convincing me of anything. you've been insulting directly to me since your first response.. Just because you disagree. When you gain some more experience you'll see the light...You may have to open your mind and admit that there's still much to learn....Hopefully events won't force it on you. Good luck, I'm so done with this.

Message edited by author 2008-07-21 00:27:54.

07/21/2008 10:16:00 AM · #219

"If you were really concerned about your family's safety, Perhaps you should move to a safer neighborhood."

How arrogant of you sir. Yes, I know numerous people who would love to move into better neighborhoods. You just assume that they have no desire to or something. Rather than perhaps not having the means.

Oh, let's not forget there are whackos everywhere. And that many large shootings do not take place in the cities but in suburbs.

***
As for New Haven, perhaps I have the wrong year. But I recall the city being the highest per capita homicide rating. If not 1991 than maybe it was 1990 with the report coming out in 1991. Regardless, as much as you like to tout your city of New York as being far more dangerous. Such is not always the case...as the following will illustrate.

"Illustrating the trend, while violent crime was falling in New York City to a rate of 1,324 incidents per 100,000 people in 1996, from 2,384 in 1990, there were declines throughout the region, although often not as fast. In Trenton, for example, during the same six years, the violent crime rate fell to 1,521 from 1,986, while in New Haven, it fell to 2,188 from 3,059."

*There are now seven cities in the region that are more violent than New York, compared with only one -- Newark -- that was more violent 16 years ago. And in two of them -- Bridgeport, Conn., and New Haven -- violent crime increased in 1996.

//query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D04E1DE1531F934A15751C0A961958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

***

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Everyone I've met who talks like you are the first ones to hide and freeze when the bullets start flying. Like I've said, I hope it never happens to you.

That's okay, you sound just like the police who don't respond to 911 calls.

I personally hope it happens to no one. I'd like to see a world where the only use of firearms was akin to golf.

Second, you do not know my character. Nor what I have faced. And yes, I have had a gun pulled on me and pointed at me, back in high school. I responded in a calm and cool manner.

And once again I will re-iteratre what I really disliked about your posts. Is your arrogance to dismiss people and their experience, opinions, decisions.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

I'm sure after reading your latest post that you've not understood one thing I've written. I'm personally against gun control.
All You're doing is ranting without convincing me of anything. you've been insulting directly to me since your first response.. Just because you disagree

Funny, that basically sums up what I feel regarding your posts. Except, that I really don't disagree with most of the core of what you said. That people should not make such decision lightly and that it will always happen differently than one thinks.

What I disagree with you sir is your belittling tone essentially dismissing people's concerns and trying to make them look silly for being prudent. And your advice to simply leave it to the professionals. Which for some of us is a good way to wind up dead.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

When you gain some more experience you'll see the light...You may have to open your mind and admit that there's still much to learn....Hopefully events won't force it on you.

Sir, my mind was opened when on three occasions in a about a 2 month period that our 911 calls went unresponded too.

I really think you need to get off your professional ego. And realize that America is a land where the commoners have the right to protect themselves as well.

Originally posted by "neophyte":

Good luck, I'm so done with this.

Glad to hear...

07/21/2008 05:41:40 PM · #220

I think that you're just another victim who was bullied once too many times in high school. Bolt the door.

.....Unreported incidents, but you've heard about them...

Message edited by author 2008-07-21 17:46:59.

07/21/2008 06:25:21 PM · #221

Yup...and I was bullied because I adhered to the system and trusted the "pros" (in this case teachers and principals). Worst, not only did adhering to their dictates and relying upon them for protection not stop the bullying. Somehow I constantly found myself suspended for fighting as well, regardless of the fact I never threw a punch, apparently it always takes two to start a fight. But hey, it also takes two in order to rape by their logic

Finally, one day I defended myself. I stood up for myself. Because it was never an issue of strength, I was able to handle most of the bullies. It was an issue of me trying to remain in the system and trust the system to work, the pros. And they failed me, every time.

Guess what...the time I defended myself was the only time I did NOT get suspended for fighting. And after that, I was almost never bothered by bullies again. Teased, sure...but they didn't try to pick a fight with me anymore.

So I am sorry, if my life experience does not match up to yours. That's what makes us all so special. We're different. We live different lives.

Heck, you were probably one of the bullies picking on the little kids in the playground for all I know.

07/22/2008 09:58:41 AM · #222

Good for you......

Message edited by author 2008-08-09 21:46:59.

07/22/2008 12:29:28 PM · #223

I think you probably did the right thing. At least for you and your family.

Making an informed decision is always a good thing. I am thankful we live in a country where we are allowed such decisions and choices.

I also give kudos on your intention to teach responsible gun ownership to your son.

So let me bring this discussion in another tangential but related direction.

I've stated my intention to use what one might call "toy guns" to start such training. My plan is to then allow them to use rubber pellet guns, then when older and more mature a BB or pellet gun. And eventually a .22 rifle if they show themselves to be worthy of such responsibility. I intend to have them always treat all of them as if they were loaded firearms. It's also my intention to teach my child at a young age how to make a firearm safe (put on safety, remove the magazine, check the chamber, etc.) so that if they ever encounter another child who has not been trained responsibly. That they will know how to make the situation safe until they can reach an adult.

I am curious, what ideas you might have with regards to training a child in being responsible around firearms.