| Author | Thread |
|
|
07/09/2008 07:45:02 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Originally posted by farfel53:
I see many that haven't read it very carefully, but are very quick to judge. I also see many who on one hand shout for diversity and understanding, but wouldn't dream of letting a Christian get away without a scoffing. You don't agree, you don't understand, you don't believe, fine, why not just leave them alone, and let them be. I don't really understand your problems with this at all. I wouldn't do it, I suppose most people wouldn't, and even to some believers it might be a bit silly. It's not theft, or deception, or lying or cheating. It's trying to fill a need some might perceive as real. Yes, about like a TV preacher, maybe. I just don't watch them, I don't send them money. But I don't send politicians money, either...but I'll bet a bunch of you DO! |
You're right. Everyone, ...including christians, muslims, atheists, agnostics, et al, has a right to state what they believe, and, in the spirit of free enterprise, to attempt to make a buck off their beliefs. And, yes, I'll leave them alone - in the sense that I won't send them any money.
But scoffing... I almost feel an obligation to "scoff" (maybe even scornfully) when someone utilizes the Internet (or any other mass medium) anonymously to prey upon the irrational superstitions of a large segment of our population. In my estimation we need to do everything we can (within the law) to ensure that the weak aren't taken advantage of. Anytime we encounter something as preposterous as this, I believe we have an obligation to be skeptical.
|
Now THIS is a good post. |
Why is it good when it has a priori judgement? If I find it "irrational" for one man to have sex with another, does that allow me to cover all types of actions or statements under some umbrella of protection?
|
|
|
|
07/09/2008 07:47:07 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
I'll leave personal religious beliefs out of it, but honestly, the very premise of "just send us all your bank account information, and we'll take good care of it and make sure it gets where it needs to go in case of Rapture" just smells bad.
Yeh, right, I'll just give someone all my bank account information. Scoffing at this is not a swat at Christians, it's good, healthy cynicism. |
Yes, that's my point in posting this. That freaks me out, big-time. And I'm a Christian...
R.
|
|
|
|
07/09/2008 07:50:56 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Why is it good when it has a priori judgement? If I find it "irrational" for one man to have sex with another, does that allow me to cover all types of actions or statements under some umbrella of protection? |
I guess that would depend on which one had to pay the forty bucks...no? |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 08:02:39 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by hihosilver:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Why is it good when it has a priori judgement? If I find it "irrational" for one man to have sex with another, does that allow me to cover all types of actions or statements under some umbrella of protection? |
I guess that would depend on which one had to pay the forty bucks...no? |
Now THIS is a better post! ;-) |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 08:13:29 PM · #80 |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 08:20:40 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Originally posted by farfel53:
I see many that haven't read it very carefully, but are very quick to judge. I also see many who on one hand shout for diversity and understanding, but wouldn't dream of letting a Christian get away without a scoffing. You don't agree, you don't understand, you don't believe, fine, why not just leave them alone, and let them be. I don't really understand your problems with this at all. I wouldn't do it, I suppose most people wouldn't, and even to some believers it might be a bit silly. It's not theft, or deception, or lying or cheating. It's trying to fill a need some might perceive as real. Yes, about like a TV preacher, maybe. I just don't watch them, I don't send them money. But I don't send politicians money, either...but I'll bet a bunch of you DO! |
You're right. Everyone, ...including christians, muslims, atheists, agnostics, et al, has a right to state what they believe, and, in the spirit of free enterprise, to attempt to make a buck off their beliefs. And, yes, I'll leave them alone - in the sense that I won't send them any money.
But scoffing... I almost feel an obligation to "scoff" (maybe even scornfully) when someone utilizes the Internet (or any other mass medium) anonymously to prey upon the irrational superstitions of a large segment of our population. In my estimation we need to do everything we can (within the law) to ensure that the weak aren't taken advantage of. Anytime we encounter something as preposterous as this, I believe we have an obligation to be skeptical.
yes, good post... |
Here's a quick and dirty story pertaining to this. When I was in high school, the mother of one of my friends had a terminal illness. The father was an OTR truck driver (in other words, never home). He and his two sisters were responsible for taking care of her. Making meals, doing laundry, etc. And at least one of them had to stay home with her each night when their father was away. On occasion I would stay with my friend and his mother on his nights. She was a very religious woman and constantly watched TV evangelist. When she died, it was discovered that she had racked up all their credit cards to the max, and some beyond the max sending them money trying to be cured. It wiped out all of their savings and they lost their house to pay off these debts. |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 08:43:21 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
...
Here's a quick and dirty story pertaining to this. When I was in high school, the mother of one of my friends had a terminal illness. The father was an OTR truck driver (in other words, never home). He and his two sisters were responsible for taking care of her. Making meals, doing laundry, etc. And at least one of them had to stay home with her each night when their father was away. On occasion I would stay with my friend and his mother on his nights. She was a very religious woman and constantly watched TV evangelist. When she died, it was discovered that she had racked up all their credit cards to the max, and some beyond the max sending them money trying to be cured. It wiped out all of their savings and they lost their house to pay off these debts. |
...A story all too often repeated, Kelli. This is why common sense and judgement based on empirical evidence should trump irrational superstitions (i.e., belief in magic). Your friend's mother was at a weak, vulnerable point in her life (from what you describe). Maybe it gave her hope and a degree of comfort as she died, but it was costly to those she left behind. There are better ways. |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 08:58:25 PM · #83 |
Yes, there are a many stories of such foolishness, and not all, I would guess, having to do with "religion". Why don't we just write some more laws and hire some more bureaucrats and functionaries to make sure it doesn't happen to anybody anymore. No worries about all that freedom and responsibility to get all mixed up with the neat and clean. And ESPECIALLY let's not let Christians peddle their superstition. It only does more harm than good.
|
|
|
|
07/09/2008 09:04:31 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Yes, there are a many stories of such foolishness, and not all, I would guess, having to do with "religion". Why don't we just write some more laws and hire some more bureaucrats and functionaries to make sure it doesn't happen to anybody anymore. No worries about all that freedom and responsibility to get all mixed up with the neat and clean. And ESPECIALLY let's not let Christians peddle their superstition. It only does more harm than good. |
Make sure to add the often pined for "there ought to be a test" before you have kids. We may as well go for it all here!
|
|
|
|
07/09/2008 09:06:53 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Yes, there are a many stories of such foolishness, and not all, I would guess, having to do with "religion". Why don't we just write some more laws and hire some more bureaucrats and functionaries to make sure it doesn't happen to anybody anymore. No worries about all that freedom and responsibility to get all mixed up with the neat and clean. And ESPECIALLY let's not let Christians peddle their superstition. It only does more harm than good. |
I'm with you 100% on tolerance of various religious, agnostic, and atheistic views. I was surprised to see some of the earlier posts in this thread, and I think there are atheists who are at least as obnoxious in pushing their viewpoint as missionaries are in pushing theirs.
However, I disagree with your seeming viewpoint that gov't is always a bad thing, or that preventing fraud using laws is a bad thing.
As to the actual point of the thread, I'm not sure how to protect people if this site is, indeed, a fraud. But if the owners are sincere, then I see no problem with the site. As to those of you who claim they're selling superstition, I highly doubt anyone is going to be convinced the rapture is real by the Web site, nor do I see materials on the site trying convince them. They're simply offering a service for people who already believe, and who might want such a service.
In a non-religious context, have you folks planned for the end of your life? Do you have documents prepped that will give important info to those you love so they can find all your accounts, sell your house, etc.? They don't need the additional stress of not knowing that info after you're gone.
If not, I highly recommend doing so. I try each year, for example, to write all that stuff down and give it to several family members. This site simply purports to do so for people in a particular circumstance.
|
|
|
|
07/09/2008 09:11:38 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Yes, there are a many stories of such foolishness, and not all, I would guess, having to do with "religion". Why don't we just write some more laws and hire some more bureaucrats and functionaries to make sure it doesn't happen to anybody anymore. No worries about all that freedom and responsibility to get all mixed up with the neat and clean. And ESPECIALLY let's not let Christians peddle their superstition. It only does more harm than good. |
How about better yet, we have one simple law; if your business engages in predatory practices, you'll be shut down, and executives held personally responsible, with civil and criminal liability.
My hit list of predatory businesses (not comprehensive by any means, feel free to add):
- Debt consolidation: Let's take all your unsecured credit card debt and convert it to debt secured by your residence, then slip you an adjustable-rate loan that will price you out of the house... but boy oh boy does it reduce expenses today! Kiss your family home goodbye.
- Rent-to-own stores: we'll "sell" you something by renting it to you and you'll pay an obscene interest rate, and wind up paying four times what the item is worth
- Auto dealers offering to take anything in trade, "even if you owe more than it's worth." Nice, dig 'em in even deeper.
With regard to anyone "peddling their superstition" we wouldn't have a problem if people realized that their religious beliefs are their own private matter, and that others don't want to be proselytized.
|
|
|
|
07/09/2008 09:13:08 PM · #87 |
I'm no expert on the subject as it has been years since I read the bible but doesn't it say those who are left behind will have their hearts hardened so that it is impossible to hear the word of god and repent and are therefore screwed, and even the lion headed locusts with their stinging scorpion tails with the power to torture man for seven days and seven nights will be unable to change the minds of those left behind as they curse god for their torturous pain? This website would seem to go against that... did I miss the bus?
|
|
|
|
07/09/2008 09:20:36 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by togtog:
I'm no expert on the subject as it has been years since I read the bible but doesn't it say those who are left behind will have their hearts hardened so that it is impossible to hear the word of god and repent and are therefore screwed, and even the lion headed locusts with their stinging scorpion tails with the power to torture man for seven days and seven nights will be unable to change the minds of those left behind as they curse god for their torturous pain? This website would seem to go against that... did I miss the bus? |
Yes, you missed the part of the bus where it is written that their can and will be those who turn to God and Christ as their salvation, refuse to bear the mark of the beast, are martyred for their views, and will, ultimately, be saved. |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 09:29:03 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
In a non-religious context, have you folks planned for the end of your life? Do you have documents prepped that will give important info to those you love so they can find all your accounts, sell your house, etc.? They don't need the additional stress of not knowing that info after you're gone. |
From a qualified estate attorney that will cost you well over $40...even the do-it-yourself software will cost you more than that...so perhaps this website is after all....a good deal.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Make sure to add the often pined for "there ought to be a test" before you have kids. |
Even though you already have two adorable cherubs, I'm running out of two cents for this thread...but for $40.00 I will be happy to give you the test and a beautiful certificate that says YOU are an AWESOME parent...;-)...unless of course, you were the one to steal those cookies...then I'll have to charge you $50.00! |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 09:36:12 PM · #90 |
So basicaly they're charging 40 bucks so you can send them all your personal info including credit cards and bank accounts.
There used to be a time where getting scammed was free. :( |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 09:39:08 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by shanksware:
Originally posted by togtog:
I'm no expert on the subject as it has been years since I read the bible but doesn't it say those who are left behind will have their hearts hardened so that it is impossible to hear the word of god and repent and are therefore screwed, and even the lion headed locusts with their stinging scorpion tails with the power to torture man for seven days and seven nights will be unable to change the minds of those left behind as they curse god for their torturous pain? This website would seem to go against that... did I miss the bus? |
Yes, you missed the part of the bus where it is written that their can and will be those who turn to God and Christ as their salvation, refuse to bear the mark of the beast, are martyred for their views, and will, ultimately, be saved. |
Ahh, ok then, thanks! |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 09:58:13 PM · #92 |
Yeh I understand but that's not what I meant. I'm not Christian. I dont follow any religion. That doesnt mean I think I'm a bad apple. I dont even care. I'm not joining the site.
I was just asking a question cause I was under the impression that if you dont go to church or follow a religion you are basically not going to be one of the "chosen ones" <-----This was told to me by many religious people. To me it's what you do as a person in life not what you follow to get there.
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Chinabun:
Thats the part i'm referring to in bold. If those left behind are sinners or non-believers then why would I or a Christian or a believer want to leave stuff to the "bad apples". That might ruin my chances!
|
Just for the record, as a Christian, I do not consider non-Christians "bad apples." At all. Period. There are people in my life, very near and dear to me, that are non-Christians. I think they are awesome, good people; they just don't believe like/what I do. |
Message edited by author 2008-07-09 22:00:45. |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 10:00:01 PM · #93 |
.
Message edited by author 2008-07-09 22:00:17. |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 10:10:34 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by Chinabun:
Yeh I understand but that's not what I meant. I'm not Christian. I dont follow any religion. That doesnt mean I think I'm a bad apple. I dont even care. I'm not joining the site.
I was just asking a question cause I was under the impression that if you dont go to church or follow a religion you are basically not going to be one of the "chosen ones" <-----This was told to me by many religious people. To me it's what you do as a person in life not what you follow to get there.
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Chinabun:
Thats the part i'm referring to in bold. If those left behind are sinners or non-believers then why would I or a Christian or a believer want to leave stuff to the "bad apples". That might ruin my chances!
|
Just for the record, as a Christian, I do not consider non-Christians "bad apples." At all. Period. There are people in my life, very near and dear to me, that are non-Christians. I think they are awesome, good people; they just don't believe like/what I do. |
|
But see that is a belief that you have. Christians believe that the ONLY way to have salvation (eternal life), get in to heaven, is by accepting that Jesus christ is your savior. Its not about the good works that you do. The bible says
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
—Ephesians 2:8-9"
I am a Christian, but I have friends that are christians that bash or knock me because I do believe that everyone is entitled to what they believe. Just because one person has a different faith/belief/religion doesnt make them any less of a person. (do I make sense).
I guess it boils down to how you are brought up, the influences in your life, how open you are to different ideas..thoughts... and then as a person you are free to believe in what you believe.
|
|
|
|
07/09/2008 10:13:12 PM · #95 |
oh, and I have to add that just because a person "goes to church" does not mean they are saved. (in reference to  chinabun's comment about what people have told her.
Only God knows what is in a persons heart. When I was growing up we had a preacher at my Southern Baptist church for years that came back from a conference one year and announced to us that he was saved (accepted jesus as his saviour) while at this conference. The church was floored that for so many years he preached and taught and was not saved himself.
|
|
|
|
07/09/2008 10:14:26 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by gwe21:
oh, and I have to add that just because a person "goes to church" does not mean they are saved. (in reference to chinabun's comment about what people have told her.
Only God knows what is in a persons heart. When I was growing up we had a preacher at my Southern Baptist church for years that came back from a conference one year and announced to us that he was saved (accepted jesus as his saviour) while at this conference. The church was floored that for so many years he preached and taught and was not saved himself. |
That happens more than you think.
And probably not as often as it should. :) |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 10:17:19 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by gwe21:
Originally posted by Chinabun:
Yeh I understand but that's not what I meant. I'm not Christian. I dont follow any religion. That doesnt mean I think I'm a bad apple. I dont even care. I'm not joining the site.
I was just asking a question cause I was under the impression that if you dont go to church or follow a religion you are basically not going to be one of the "chosen ones" <-----This was told to me by many religious people. To me it's what you do as a person in life not what you follow to get there.
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by Chinabun:
Thats the part i'm referring to in bold. If those left behind are sinners or non-believers then why would I or a Christian or a believer want to leave stuff to the "bad apples". That might ruin my chances!
|
Just for the record, as a Christian, I do not consider non-Christians "bad apples." At all. Period. There are people in my life, very near and dear to me, that are non-Christians. I think they are awesome, good people; they just don't believe like/what I do. |
|
But see that is a belief that you have. Christians believe that the ONLY way to have salvation (eternal life), get in to heaven, is by accepting that Jesus christ is your savior. Its not about the good works that you do. The bible says
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
—Ephesians 2:8-9"
I am a Christian, but I have friends that are christians that bash or knock me because I do believe that everyone is entitled to what they believe. Just because one person has a different faith/belief/religion doesnt make them any less of a person. (do I make sense).
I guess it boils down to how you are brought up, the influences in your life, how open you are to different ideas..thoughts... and then as a person you are free to believe in what you believe. |
That's what I like about Christianity - complete freedom to burn in Hell if I so choose... |
|
|
|
07/09/2008 10:17:47 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by gwe21:
oh, and I have to add that just because a person "goes to church" does not mean they are saved. (in reference to chinabun's comment about what people have told her.
Only God knows what is in a persons heart. When I was growing up we had a preacher at my Southern Baptist church for years that came back from a conference one year and announced to us that he was saved (accepted jesus as his saviour) while at this conference. The church was floored that for so many years he preached and taught and was not saved himself. |
That happens more than you think.
And probably not as often as it should. :) |
Absolutely correct |
|
|
|
07/10/2008 08:58:44 PM · #99 |
| The first thing I thought of... ;-) |
|
|
|
07/11/2008 02:00:29 AM · #100 |
| I am so glad I carried on reading the tread, cos I thought you all where talking about dinasours to start off with |
|
