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07/09/2008 05:21:56 AM · #1 |
there are many people voting who know very little about what is and what goes into making a great photo.
That tends to mean that the most generic, mainstream and cliched images do well and anything that's pushing boundaries or different bombs, which is a shame.
I often see wonderful images really down the ranks.
Don't get me wrong, I think many of the 'winning' images are very good and I certainly don't think I'm an expert by any stretch of the imagination.
I'd be interested in any of your opinions.
B |
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07/09/2008 05:31:44 AM · #2 |
You are right in what you say, to a point. There is a certain style that dp voters look for. Mainly they don't like a lot of extraneous detail. When voting, they don't look for subtlty in the lighting or composition. They look for maybe 15 seconds tops at each image. Many of the lower scoring images are actually very good photographically, but you don't always get all the innuendo and lovely detail unless you look at the images for a while longer.
Dp is a problem due to the amount of entries and the time allowed to vote. This does not make a happy marraige when it comes to all types of images, just the basic, non cluttered, highly colored images that draw the eye quickly, then on to the next one. It is more inclined to be parallel to stock images, which are meant to grab the eye quickly to rise above all the others. There is obviously a place for stock images, there are enough sites that sell them. However, they aren't meant to be timeless or artistic, just popular and in the moment, if you know what I mean.
There is room for more complex images on dp, and artistic ones as well. Just don't expect them to score the highest, though occasionally one gets through the cracks and wins. |
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07/09/2008 05:40:47 AM · #3 |
That's a great reply June.
Thanks.
B |
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07/09/2008 06:06:55 AM · #4 |
| The other thing I can recommend, is take the current free study that was just completed. Choose two images, one that did poorly and one that did better. Put them in the thread here and see what kind of responses you get as to why one did better than the other. I saw some images that I myself could not see why they did better than the lower scoring ones. Don't have time right now to post them, but later after work I will pull them up and place them in the thread here and say what I think about the score of the images. |
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07/09/2008 06:25:29 AM · #5 |
This is my seventh rewrite, I am so worried about offending someone I keep retyping it, well I've managed to annoy myself, so...
Photographers are allowed feed back from both experts and completely inexperienced voters. For this reason votes and comments are in general random and often based on the feelings behind an image and not the technical details. On the other end, those who vote and comment are not allowed any form of feed back. So the photographer gets random help and advice, and those who give advice get no feed back about the value or accuracy of their comments and votes.
I think comments are more important to learning than votes are, however it is considered completely improper and downright rude to say anything negative about a comment or person who comments. How can they learn to improve their eye and in turn their comments and votes, right now they can't. There is the This comment was helpful check box however that gives no detail about how helpful the comment is and I suspect a lot of people mark comments helpful even when not, just because they are thankful to get any comments at all.
I think it would be nice to have two things, though I haven't figured out any details...
1) for a votes "weight" on the final score to depend on the number of entries and comments that voter had made, so new and inexperienced users wouldn't drag the score up or down as much as more seasoned members. I have no idea if this can be made fair nor if it would work.
2) To allow all members, not just the photographer, to anonymously vote on the comments given on a scale from 1-5 for example. Since everyone could vote on the comments the stigma against being mean would be removed, it would be a average vote, not a rude photographer. Maybe even allow anonymous commenting on the comments.
I also wouldn't mind doing away with the minimal 20% vote rule, it forces people to vote when not interested in the shots. If they were interested in voting on 20% they wouldn't need a rule. And people who are not interested in a shot will not give it the time and thought needed to fairly judge it, imho.
So on a macro shot of a flea, would get a comment "This is too blurry, the bug is in focus but nothing else!" and an anonymous comment could be "The blur is normal and unavoidable, look up depth-of-field and macro photography please." with a vote of 3.
But hey, maybe I am just flaming insane and a complete idiot on this subject. Sorry if I have offended anyone. |
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07/09/2008 07:07:26 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by togtog:
I also wouldn't mind doing away with the minimal 20% vote rule, |
I tell you what I'd rather see. Break the challenges up into chunks and assign them to voters rather than requiring a percentage and then having people use thumbnails to decide which image they'll vote on. In other words pick a number... say 60 to 80. So if you have a Free Study with 600 entries and 60 is the number, the entries are randomly assigned to 10 pools of 60. For your votes to count you must vote on every image within one of those pools of 60. No thumbnails allowed during voting until all 60 are voted on.
You can continue voting after the first 60, even voting on the entire challenge if you like. I think thumbnails should only be allowed in a group after all in the group have been voted on. This would allow you to quickly review how you'd voted and perhaps make a few tweaks before finishing.
If you're worried about offending someone. It will be a self-fulfilling worry. Someone, somewhere, will always be offended by what you say. If you allow this to stop you from commenting and discussing a topic, your input will never be heard. |
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07/09/2008 07:12:07 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by TacTZilla:
I often see wonderful images really down the ranks. |
try here !
actually here
Message edited by author 2008-07-09 09:45:27.
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07/09/2008 07:14:36 AM · #8 |
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07/09/2008 07:43:39 AM · #9 |
The major flaw of this website is that ...........
Originally posted by TacTZilla:
there are many people voting who know very little about what is and what goes into making a great photo.
B |
This really seems to be a odd complaint about what is essentially a learning site.
This is Photography 101, there are no prerequisites, no one had to pass a test to join. In fact we don't even require user to own a camera.
When I someone with an interest in photography, I make a point to recommend our site as a place to learn more about the craft. By just getting out and finishing each week's assignment people learn to shoot different subjects with various techniques. During voting, a member gets to see how others approach the same problems. And hopefully you have one of your peers make a comment about what you did and how they think it might be improved.
Now perhaps you , the OP, might think that you're ready for the next level, DPC-400, where your work is examined by a more exclusive group of peers, but realize that you're depriving these neophites the benefits of learning from your experience.
(Hopefully I made sense as I'm still on my first cup of coffee.)
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07/09/2008 07:44:54 AM · #10 |
The major flaw of this website is that ...........
too many people complain about the voting.
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07/09/2008 07:53:23 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by JunieMoon:
... This does not make a happy marraige when it comes to all types of images, just the basic, non cluttered, highly colored images that draw the eye quickly, then on to the next one. ... |
I somtimes wonder whether a large percentage of the voters are using laptops or cheap LCD monitors to view images. I think that simple and colorful will look fine no matter the monitor, where as a photo with subtle textures and nice shadow effects may look poor on a lower end LCD. I have stopped voting at lunch in work, since the LCD there is awful and makes the photos look washed out, where as my CRT at home is bright and vibrant.
As far as wonderful images (in anyone's opinion) being far down the ranks, just look at the scoring of the winners. Plenty of people rate them at 3,4, or 5. Look at the middle of the road finishers and see that they get many 7, 8, and 9s. It is all subjective. I had a period where I rated most of the ribbon winners as average or below average. Is my taste worst than most? Beter than most? Does it really matter? The bottom line question is "Does voting and getting voted on actually help my (or someone elses) photo skills to improve?". I hope so.
Bob |
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07/09/2008 08:23:11 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by JaimeVinas:
At least we have slippy! |
The title of this thread would have been more properly followed with an original post lamenting the fact that there just aren't enough Slippy's at this website.
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07/09/2008 08:32:50 AM · #13 |
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07/09/2008 08:37:57 AM · #14 |
| although i find many little things annoying with the site and its rules , and how people vote etc... I still think thats what makes dp challenge interesting. It's the challenge of making a photo that appeals to you most of all, and others enjoy it enough to help you win ! |
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07/09/2008 08:40:05 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by TacTZilla:
the most generic, mainstream and cliched images do well and anything that's pushing boundaries or different bombs, which is a shame. |
I'm surprised it's taken you 15 months to notice :)
The website is excellent for what it is. Great competition, detailed learning, strong web community.
What it's NOT is overly diverse ... and hundreds of threads later on this topic and we still haven't been able to "fix" that (if you think it needs fixing).
So I guess I'm saying I agree, but I'm OK with that. I love the competition part of this site, so I strive to do what it takes to compete ... including submitting images in an attempt to win rather than an attempt to "be true to myself" regarding what I like to shoot ... which, of course, makes me part of the problem.
:)
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07/09/2008 08:50:56 AM · #16 |
As long as that thread says it all then I guess there is no need for my recommendation. |
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07/09/2008 12:10:49 PM · #17 |
Many thanks for all the replies.
I'll take a look at the links.
I'd just like to say that I wasn't complaining, just making an observation.
Comments like that do nothing to move things forwards and tend to come from negative, cynical people who try to make themselves feel better by trying to put down others.
..........
It didn't take me 15 months to notice, just about 12 months to post anything about it.
I pretty much joined DPC when I got my camera and so it has been a learning process for me (as you can see from the evolution of my images - I hope)
I'm sure I must have voted badly in the beginning.
I'm very much in favor of having a weighted voting system where the higher scoring members votes counted for more that say someone with no camera or even any images on the site.
How hard that would be to implement I have no idea.
Cheers
B |
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07/09/2008 12:18:55 PM · #18 |
Even the highest scoring (average) members post a zonker in their challenge entries once in a while. The system in place now for voting seems to be working. It is always interesting to see how the fickle winds of voting have gone after each challenge. I agree that the simple, and saturated shots get the most from voting. That's why we have the posthumous awards and other recognition for under voted photos that have great technical or artistic merit.
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07/09/2008 01:00:46 PM · #19 |
You really have to accept dpc for what it is and not expect it to be the one perfect source for photographic analysis. Photography is an art and there are no absolutes to be found anywhere.
I used to worry about explanations for a lack of views or low scores in a challenge. Eventually I learned that the lack of views or low scores was enough to indicate that people here didn't react to the image as I had hoped. Rather than ask why I shoot more and see what they do react to. Most of the time people cannot explain what's wrong anyway or they will try and possible miss the real reason and send you down a path to fix the wrong thing.
If you need an analysis of what's wrong with an image I would recommend you find somebody you trust as a mentor.
Message edited by author 2008-07-09 13:01:14.
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07/09/2008 01:03:11 PM · #20 |
I think one problem with your post is the assumption that "what makes a great photo" is easily answered. You make it sound like there is some hidden handbook that gives you this answer but "most people" don't have access to it.
What if the essence of a great photo is one that speaks to the majority of people? DPC would then be a great forum for revealing great photos.
It all depends on how you look at it.
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07/09/2008 01:08:58 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think one problem with your post is the assumption that "what makes a great photo" is easily answered. You make it sound like there is some hidden handbook that gives you this answer but "most people" don't have access to it.
What if the essence of a great photo is one that speaks to the majority of people? DPC would then be a great forum for revealing great photos.
It all depends on how you look at it. |
I agree to a point, but I was looking at a National Geographic book of great images the other day and it struck me that just about all of the images in the book would have scored really badly in challenges.
B |
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07/09/2008 01:09:39 PM · #22 |
I expect  Artifacts to be posting here soon... |
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07/09/2008 01:21:09 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by TacTZilla:
I agree to a point, but I was looking at a National Geographic book of great images the other day and it struck me that just about all of the images in the book would have scored really badly in challenges.
B |
This is exactly why you cannot try to make dpc into the perfect photo grading site. dpc is great at giving you the voting reaction of dpc participants. You have to balance that input with what you learn through other channels and then find your way through it all.
It's easy these days to pick up a camera and create a good snapshot, the web is absolutely filled with them. It is very hard to find your personal vision and then learn to affectively communicate that vision through great photography. Books give you techniques and sites like this can point out obvious flaws but the journey from good snapshot to great photography is both challenging and very personal.
I realize you are not complaining and I think many of us have been faced by the same observation. The fact that you now see great images down the lists in the challenges tells me that the site is in fact working despite it's flaws.
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07/09/2008 01:34:40 PM · #24 |
The "sort by my vote" feature on this site gets used by me often. I try to make a point to comment on the shots that I scored high, but finished low. There's tons more talent here than just the (obviously talented) regulars you see on the front page.
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
The fact that you now see great images down the lists in the challenges tells me that the site is in fact working despite it's flaws. |
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07/09/2008 01:40:41 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by TacTZilla:
I'm sure I must have voted badly in the beginning.
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How can vote badly? You vote based on your knowledge, as your knowledge evolves so does your voting practice.
My voting practice has changed, but that is because of experience. That does not say that my earlier voting was "wrong" or "bad." I have learned how to vote and comment in more effective and efficient ways, I have learned something about photography beyond..."it makes me feel good to look at it."
I think about my daughter, horsea, she is still new to photography and to looking at art and creating her own ideas about art. She used to vote based purely on colors and borders...is this wrong or bad? Not for a 10 year old just starting out. After several months on this site, photographing with her dad, and looking at art of all kinds, she is developing a style and the ability to see other things that she would have missed before. Her votes, comments, images and enjoyment have all changed accordingly.
That is the beauty of this site...and perhaps it's downfall (if one is to believe all of the threads.) We all have different skill sets and experiences, we all grow in our own ways and we are all growing together. |
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