Why Obama Must Lose - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/07/2008 11:38:22 AM · #51

Originally posted by coronamv:

Which is worse spending other peoples money you did not earn or spending your own money you earned?

Which is worse: advocating the neglect of the most vulnerable people in our society (as you promote) or helping them?

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

07/07/2008 11:48:34 AM · #52

Oh, I'd definitely prefer to spend other people's money, but I've yet to figure out how to get it.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

07/07/2008 11:49:45 AM · #53

Originally posted by Melethia:

Oh, I'd definitely prefer to spend other people's money, but I've yet to figure out how to get it.

Amen.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

07/07/2008 12:00:36 PM · #54

Originally posted by David Ey:

Who do ya'll think will decide who gets the best care under socialized medecine?
Will it be the aged, the smoker, the overweight or some other person who the government decides has contributed to their condition? I doubt they will be the ones getting the best care. Do some research and you will find countries who already let the government doctors decide when to end someones life who, in the US would have life saving treatments available.

... if they could afford to pay for it.

coronamv

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 IF EX DG HSM for Canon

07/07/2008 12:04:38 PM · #55

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by coronamv:
Which is worse spending other peoples money you did not earn or spending your own money you earned?

Which is worse: advocating the neglect of the most vulnerable people in our society (as you promote) or helping them?

Once again I never said that.. I said it is not up to government to handle these matters. It is up to your family, church, and charities. I mean why should government force this issue on it's citizens. The only reason is you want government to redistribute the wealth of a certain group (IE the rich) Kind of hipocritical you might think.

Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

07/07/2008 12:49:14 PM · #56

Originally posted by coronamv:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by coronamv:
Which is worse spending other peoples money you did not earn or spending your own money you earned?

Which is worse: advocating the neglect of the most vulnerable people in our society (as you promote) or helping them?

Once again I never said that.. I said it is not up to government to handle these matters. It is up to your family, church, and charities. I mean why should government force this issue on it's citizens. The only reason is you want government to redistribute the wealth of a certain group (IE the rich) Kind of hipocritical you might think.

Because it's the government's responsibilty to do what is right for our society and those people that you'd throw to the wolves are, whether you like it or not, a part of our society. As a member of the society that provide the framework that allows you to amass great wealth, the goverment obliges you to help support those who are less fortunate. That's the deal. If you don't like it, you are always free to go look for another place to amass your riches.

What about those people who are without families? or churches? Don't tell me that just because someone's poor, you'd shove religion down their throats too? Talk about adding insult to injury.

What makes you think that people in general (let alone those so consumed by greed that they've garnered great personal fortunes) are so altruistic that they would collectively give enough to make social programs unnecessary? What would you do with those people the charities would be unable to help? Let them starve? You never answer that question, no matter how many times it's put to you. It's either because you're so deluded that you don't believe there would be such people or the answer is so inhumane that you can't bear to post it.

JBHale

Canon EOS-20D

07/07/2008 12:53:16 PM · #57

This is turning into a classic "hands off" government vs. socialism to both extremes. Popcorn!

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

07/07/2008 01:52:18 PM · #58

Originally posted by coronamv:

Originally posted by Matthew:
In order to eliminate them you could either take away all sources of social support (like you suggest) - they will eventually starve or freeze to death. Or you could simply round them up and take them away to a place where that process could be accelerated far more efficiently - no one wants a society where people are dying on the streets, or resorting to crime in order to feed themselves. If you sited the facility far enough away from major population centres, the workers that make the country great would be blissfully unaware of the shots being fired and the stench of the incinerators.
I agree that people do not want the natural order of things to occur. What I am advocating is it is not the governments job to facilitate these things. It is up to your families, churchs, private organizations. Then you have a choice...

Let me get this straight -

you want to eliminate all kinds of organised social support for the needy and replace it with decentralised, local and voluntary efforts. Local communities should have full responsibility to decide whether the unemployed, disabled and elderly should be supported or left to die in an unregulated fashion.

Sounds like a recipe for chaos and disaster.

I would recommend traveling to Morocco if you get the chance. It is a great country, full of interesting things to see and photograph. However it is also full of people begging on the streets in places like Marrakesh because there is little or no state aid for people who are unemployed and needy: it is a family-centric and pious community where people are expected to look after their own (just like you suggest) through family and religious support. However, the disabled fall into the category of "too difficult" for many families and have no option but to beg on the street, along with the elderly who have no children to support them, and single mothers who are rejected by the family and religious systems.

It is the kind of place that made me incredibly thankful for living in a progressive first world country - maybe you need to see that kind of poverty before you discard the safety nets that differentiate a first and third world society.

tate

Apple iPhone 15 Pro

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

07/07/2008 01:58:06 PM · #59

So much to say ...
Firstly, the premise of this thread is racist in itself: Do I blame stupid white men (ie GWB and friends) for the way things are??? ... well actually, I kinda do ...

But to think that if we have problems with Obama as president we would blame people with dark skin is yet another racist thought in itself.

As far as voting ... the voting system could be improved greatly. The way it is now (not to mention the way our media tends to adapt to it), 3rd-parties are insignificant. I'd love to see Instant Runoff voting (as I've mentioned in threads before).

Either way, I'll take my chances with the guy from Illinois.

Message edited by author 2008-07-07 14:07:27.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/07/2008 02:01:12 PM · #60

Originally posted by Matthew:

It is the kind of place that made me incredibly thankful for living in a progressive first world country - maybe you need to see that kind of poverty before you discard the safety nets that differentiate a first and third world society.

Does anyone here have any idea what constitutes a "second world" society?

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/07/2008 02:06:18 PM · #61

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Matthew:
It is the kind of place that made me incredibly thankful for living in a progressive first world country - maybe you need to see that kind of poverty before you discard the safety nets that differentiate a first and third world society.

Does anyone here have any idea what constitutes a "second world" society?

Actually I think you could describe the current state of our country that way! ;)

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/07/2008 02:11:48 PM · #62

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Does anyone here have any idea what constitutes a "second world" society?

Historically, NATO countries were First World, Warsaw Pact countries were Second World, and the rest were Third World. With the fall of the Soviet Union, the line between the first two has been blurred, and some formerly 2nd world countries are considered to be in the first group.

Message edited by author 2008-07-07 14:12:54.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/07/2008 02:13:23 PM · #63

Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Matthew:
It is the kind of place that made me incredibly thankful for living in a progressive first world country - maybe you need to see that kind of poverty before you discard the safety nets that differentiate a first and third world society.

Does anyone here have any idea what constitutes a "second world" society?

Actually I think you could describe the current state of our country that way! ;)

Yes, complete with our own secret police and gulag ...

Thanks for the answers.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/07/2008 02:16:35 PM · #64

I did not know that we are building a multimillion dollar wall between the US and Mexico. I guess that sort of stuns me. That, and I read somewhere that it's going to be OK to do some racial profiling - if you've had access to firearms, have been in certain designated countries (Iraq, for instance), then you may be subject to general questioning. I guess I should have answers at the ready, huh?

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/07/2008 02:18:26 PM · #65

Originally posted by Melethia:

Remember Deb, name, rank & serial number only!! ROFL!

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/07/2008 02:20:14 PM · #66

Originally posted by Melethia:

I did not know that we are building a multimillion dollar wall between the US and Mexico. I guess that sort of stuns me.

Unlike in the Middle East, this wall is intended to prevent people from cutting lawns and cleaning hotel rooms, not from shooting missiles into San Diego.

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

07/07/2008 02:30:46 PM · #67

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Melethia:
I did not know that we are building a multimillion dollar wall between the US and Mexico. I guess that sort of stuns me.

Unlike in the Middle East, this wall is intended to prevent people from cutting lawns and cleaning hotel rooms, not from shooting missiles into San Diego.

That is another policy that coranmv might want to think about - the creation of walled ghettos where the reviled underclass that he seeks to eradicate might be contained - the walls might help the fight against inevitable crime and dissent from the oppressed poor. While we're at it, perhaps the jobless should be shamed by being forced to wear visible identifiers (so that they can be shunned more effectively).

blindjustice

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/07/2008 02:38:52 PM · #68

Welfare, welfare fraud and abuse are really just red herring Bull shite issues come up with by Conservatives- to rile up the masses into thinking we need more tax cuts- which, coincidentally benefit not the masses but the extremely wealthy. Welfare, social security, healthcare and a host other social programs would be easily affordable without mistaken wars...

Or we can just build more hospital and prisons- to stick teh people that are too lowly for you to take care of...

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

JBHale

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

07/07/2008 02:43:13 PM · #69

Originally posted by metatate:

Racist? That's insulting.

It's not the thread that's racist, it's the country. The sad fact is that there are already hoards of people in the United States who already won't vote for Obama just because he's black. What I was saying in the OP was that these people, and maybe some others, would blame the fall of the county on Obama's skin color. This would cause tension, as many other people would no doubt see the claim for what it is-terribly racist.

Don't think that I was accusing everybody of feeling that way, and don't ignore the fact that this country is FULL of awful racist people.

BTW, my Dad is very liberal. This was in no way bashing Obama.

07/07/2008 02:59:37 PM · #70

Originally posted by JBHale:

Originally posted by metatate:
So much to say ...
Firstly, the premise of this thread is racist in itself: Do I blame stupid white men (ie GWB and friends) for the way things are??? ... well actually, I kinda do ...

But to think that if we have problems with Obama as president we would blame people with dark skin is yet another racist thought in itself.

As far as voting ... the voting system could be improved greatly. The way it is now (not to mention the way our media tends to adapt to it), 3rd-parties are insignificant. I'd love to see Instant Runoff voting (as I've mentioned in threads before).

Either way, I'll take my chances with the guy from Illinois.

Racist? That's insulting.

It's not the thread that's racist, it's the country. The sad fact is that there are already hoards of people in the United States who already won't vote for Obama just because he's black. What I was saying in the OP was that these people, and maybe some others, would blame the fall of the county on Obama's skin color. This would cause tension, as many other people would no doubt see the claim for what it is-terribly racist.

Don't think that I was accusing everybody of feeling that way, and don't ignore the fact that this country is FULL of awful racist people.

BTW, my Dad is very liberal. This was in no way bashing Obama.

First you were sexist if you didn't vote for Clinton. Now you'll be labeled a racist if you don't vote for Obama or an ageist if you don't vote for McCain.

How about voting for the person best able to do the job?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/07/2008 03:01:51 PM · #71

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Melethia:
I did not know that we are building a multimillion dollar wall between the US and Mexico. I guess that sort of stuns me.

Unlike in the Middle East, this wall is intended to prevent people from cutting lawns and cleaning hotel rooms, not from shooting missiles into San Diego.

That is another policy that coranmv might want to think about - the creation of walled ghettos where the reviled underclass that he seeks to eradicate might be contained - the walls might help the fight against inevitable crime and dissent from the oppressed poor. While we're at it, perhaps the jobless should be shamed by being forced to wear visible identifiers (so that they can be shunned more effectively).

Let's just hope he hasn't read much Jonathan Swift ... :-(

tate

Apple iPhone 15 Pro

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

07/07/2008 03:17:53 PM · #72

Sorry. I realize it wasn't a racist thread or a Obama-bash. And I actually kind of agree with the notion regarding the blame-game. But linking the decisions of a president with his skin color is quite a stretch. Once a person has achieved that level of power/success, one would hope people wouldn't blame a huge group of people for his decisions.

I'm going to guess that whoever is elected will have opponents continually prepared to cast blame left and right (pun intended). The only people that will blame it on skin color are the same people that do that now.

I didn't mean to insult/offend.

Originally posted by JBHale:

Racist? That's insulting.
...
BTW, my Dad is very liberal. This was in no way bashing Obama.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

07/07/2008 04:06:18 PM · #73

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

How about voting for the person best able to do the job?

How I wish. But, I don't think s/he is running this year.

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

07/07/2008 04:13:46 PM · #74

don't ya wish it were someone like Condeleza or Newt ?

Message edited by author 2008-07-07 16:16:39.