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07/04/2008 03:59:52 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by togtog:
Louis, with all due respect...etc. |
Hello togtog,
I originally wrote the first post in this thread for the "Rant" forum, but have found that its content applies equally well to everyday conversations, it seems. |
Fair enough mate :) Maybe we can, argue, in the future under a better light. However I still won't bring references. Opinions and common sense "facts" only. You are welcome to bring yours however if you wish. I tend to argue more based on ideas and concepts than facts and figures though. |
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07/04/2008 04:06:30 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by togtog:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by togtog:
Louis, with all due respect...etc. |
Hello togtog,
I originally wrote the first post in this thread for the "Rant" forum, but have found that its content applies equally well to everyday conversations, it seems. |
Fair enough mate :) Maybe we can, argue, in the future under a better light. However I still won't bring references. Opinions and common sense "facts" only. You are welcome to bring yours however if you wish. I tend to argue more based on ideas and concepts than facts and figures though. |
Dont worry about Louis, he is just a bit uptight.. if something is black he will produce facts and figures to prove that it is white.. |
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07/04/2008 06:12:55 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by Simms:
he is just a bit uptight.. |
I think it's a Nikon thing.
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07/04/2008 07:15:04 PM · #54 |
Hey Buzzrock,
I believe you. If you want to get a kick, try recording some EVPs and ask them why they moved your stuff.
I've had a ton of paranormal and psychic experiences. My husband was one of those people who used to make fun of me for what I have encountered. That was until he watched a television set slide towards me as I walked past. It also made a loud scraping noise (which we both heard). As an extremely analytical and mechanically minded person, he found this event quite disturbing; and we spent the next 30 minutes trying to come up with an explanation for it.
The greatest skeptics become the most staunch believers once they have their own experiences. This can be hard to swallow when they are mocking you or trying to come up with an explanation that is often less believable than the idea that life energies can exist upon planes outside of our limited human perception.
I think that the existence of the soul as a transcendental energy form is just a scientific fact that we have not evolved enough to discover. Until then, try to be accepting of those who have (as of yet) been able to reconcile every event in their lives.
Message edited by author 2008-07-05 22:57:03. |
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07/04/2008 07:50:46 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by rox_rox:
Hey Buzzrock,
I believe you. If you want to get a kick, try recording some EVPs and ask them why they moved your stuff.
I've had a ton of paranormal and psychic experiences. My husband was one of those people who used to make fun of me for what I have encountered. That was until he watched a television set slide towards me as I walked past. It also made a loud scraping noise (which we both heard). As an extremely analytical and mechanically minded person, he found this event quite disturbing; and we spent the next 30 minutes trying to come up with an explanation for it.
The greatest skeptics become the most staunch believers once they have their own experiences. This can be hard to swallow when they are mocking you or trying to come up with an explanation that is often less believable than the idea that life energies can exist upon planes outside of our limited human perception.
I think that the existence of the soul as a transcendental energy form is just a scientific fact that we have not evolved enough to discover. Until then, try to be accepting of those who have (as of yet0 been able to reconcile every event in their lives. |
Why would a person use any of their time in the 'next life' to slide the objects on a desk by a few inches? If they were that powerful...and wanted to make a point..
how about typing out a note that said what they wanted you to know?
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07/04/2008 08:02:25 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Why would a person use any of their time in the 'next life' to slide the objects on a desk by a few inches? If they were that powerful...and wanted to make a point..
how about typing out a note that said what they wanted you to know? |
So, because they may be either unable or unwilling to communicate upon your terms you discount their existence? Perhaps they wonder why you don't write them a message on their version of paper. |
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07/04/2008 08:22:20 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by rox_rox:
Originally posted by egamble:
Why would a person use any of their time in the 'next life' to slide the objects on a desk by a few inches? If they were that powerful...and wanted to make a point..
how about typing out a note that said what they wanted you to know? |
So, because they may be either unable or unwilling to communicate upon your terms you discount their existence? Perhaps they wonder why you don't write them a message on their version of paper. |
Even monkeys can communicate better than moving things around on a desk...if they aren't intelligent enough to realize we don't 'see' them....then perhaps they should just go back to wherever they came from?
Edit: I am not saying they don't exist..(I don't believe the spirit stays here on earth..that is a different discussion). I am saying that if they can't communicate effectively...maybe they should move on down the road and do something productive.
Message edited by author 2008-07-04 20:23:27.
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07/04/2008 08:36:42 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Even monkeys can communicate better than moving things around on a desk...if they aren't intelligent enough to realize we don't 'see' them....then perhaps they should just go back to wherever they came from?
Edit: I am not saying they don't exist..(I don't believe the spirit stays here on earth..that is a different discussion). I am saying that if they can't communicate effectively...maybe they should move on down the road and do something productive. |
Assumption #1: They are able to perceive your reality.
Assumption #2: They feel the need to communicate on your terms.
Assumption #2: They have the ability to communicate on your terms.
Assumption #4: Moving something is their one and only way to communicate.
I assume you have arms, legs and skin. Therefore, why aren't you an NBA star?
My assumption #2: You aren't an NBA star;^)
Message edited by author 2008-07-04 20:46:20. |
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07/04/2008 11:05:40 PM · #59 |
Agreeing with rox_rox :)
If there is such a thing as ghosts and they have thoughts and perception it is entirely possible that what they see or feel like differ greatly from what we do. For example, I doubt ghosts have eye sight nor probably a sense of touch since those are physical traits. There is a chance they would not be aware of anything we would recognize.
Imagine a completely black void now fill it with balls of colored light that bounce around like popcorn and those lights are everything from the air to people to coffee cups. It could be completely crazy on their side. There is a chance a ghost is completely unaware of anything and is just blowing around like a fallen leaf. Then again there might not be such a thing as ghosts and it is all peoples imaginations or natural events that trigger memories or hallucinations of things moving or of people we know. |
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07/04/2008 11:12:26 PM · #60 |
its those tiny micro-organism sized people called the "Micro Men",you must have laid your stuff on top of thier tiny little "micro-town",watch what your doin dude...;)
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07/04/2008 11:17:16 PM · #61 |
| I used to watch bowls of soup move across the table when I was young. The bowls had a hollow bottom and the trapped air would expand and gently lift the bowl a micrometer off the table allowing the drafts in the room to move it. Only happened on one specific table. It was very interesting to watch. |
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07/05/2008 12:15:25 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by rox_rox:
Assumption #1: They are able to perceive your reality.
Assumption #2: They feel the need to communicate on your terms.
Assumption #2: They have the ability to communicate on your terms.
Assumption #4: Moving something is their one and only way to communicate. |
Assumption #0: There is a "they", even though there is no evidence of "them", and you will never furnish anything remotely resembling believable evidence. |
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07/05/2008 07:43:57 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by buzzrock:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
why don't you google "wake out of your stupor- there areno such things as ghosts"
- because there are not ghosts, and certinly not ghosts that do trivial shit such as move things 5 inches to the right. |
Well wasnt that rude..
I know what I saw, I was just wondering if anyone else here had a similar experience..
BTW-- desk seems fine today :)
Happy 4th all. |
I'm sorry, that was pretty rude, I guess I suffer from so much self delusion that I want to snap others out of it. I apologize.
I hope you find out what happended with your "phenomena"
sorry again. |
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07/05/2008 07:52:31 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by rox_rox:
[quote=egamble]
Why would a person use any of their time in the 'next life' to slide the objects on a desk by a few inches? If they were that powerful...and wanted to make a point..
how about typing out a note that said what they wanted you to know? |
So, because they may be either unable or unwilling to communicate upon your terms you discount their existence? Perhaps they wonder why you don't write them a message on their version of paper. |
Even monkeys can communicate better than moving things around on a desk...if they aren't intelligent enough to realize we don't 'see' them....then perhaps they should just go back to wherever they came from?
I think the danger here is that we can easily prove to ourselves that there are no ghosts by logic, but we don't want to let ourselves think that life is so boring, and death so quiet.
EXAMPLE: Why do we always see ghosts that are less than a few hundred years old?- certainly, if some entity can come back fromt the dead to make its presence known across dimensions, it would not be limited to a year, or onehundred or even known history. If there were ghosts, there would be lots and lots of them all mulling around the same place.
- the answer is, we don't see them, its us thats scared and creates the story, and then plugs it in with facts that are easy. AN old lady lived there, a child had a disease, there was a murder.
Truth is, the spot of the death on the physical earth shouldn't have any relevance to a ghost. Think of the ghosts there would be at a hospital. Truth is we like to think there is an afterlife, and we like to be scared. Thats why we let ourselves think psychics are real, aliens are real, and sadly, god according to "our" own personal religions.
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07/05/2008 08:50:05 PM · #65 |
I can respect the opinion of anyone who says "I don't believe in the paranormal". Whether or not you do is based upon your personal experience and view of the Universe.
Arguing the existence of paranormal entities based upon the human perspective in this physical plane and time-frame doesn't make any sense to me. I would be happy to share different explanations for the questions presented, if I felt they were asked in earnest instead of as a rationalization for one's particular beliefs. There are many plausible answers to these questions to anyone truly interested in exploring the idea of paranormal existence.
The assertion that there is no "evidence" seems rash to me. There is plenty of "evidence", waiting for serious review. Evidence and proof are two different things. When I was in school it was evident that dinosaurs were cold-blooded reptilian creatures. Now it seems some may have been the warm-blooded, feathered ancestors of birds. Just because there was no proof of this did not make it impossible, only undiscovered.
Science is based upon imagination and exploration. There has been relatively little serious scientific study of the paranormal. Why would scientists want to subject themselves to the type of ridicule and mockery that comes with such discussions? Those, who are willing to take this risk, have built up an interesting body of "evidence" that could lead to groundbreaking developments if paranormal studies were approached with the same enthusiasm as genetic engineering or military weapons technology. As a matter of fact, the US government is interested in the paranormal and has used it in various secret projects; they just don't trust the general populace with the knowledge they have obtained.
"...you will never furnish anything remotely resembling believable evidence." is less believable to me than the idea that spirits are everywhere around us. The word "never" has been used against pioneers since history began and is repeatedly proven wrong. Besides, I don't need to furnish anything to anyone. I'm happy to share my experiences with those who are open minded, and just as happy to respect the opinions of those who don't believe.
Peace,
Roxanne
Message edited by author 2008-07-05 20:50:33. |
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07/05/2008 08:53:08 PM · #66 |
I am not saying at all what I believe here just relaying an incident which happened in the apartment I lived in over 25 years ago. I was having a dinner party with an odd assortment of guests which I didn't normally bring together as they didn't have alot in common but on this occassion they were all together. One Doctor, one lawyer, one Engineering student a Phychic/medium and several artists.
I had purchased an antique floor lamp that day which I had proudly displayed in my living room.
After dinner the phychic and the doctor were having a difference of opinion (that is a definately an understatement) on the spirit world. Everyone had their own opinion and it was getting a bit loud to say the least.
Anyway, and there was a room full of witnesses to this, the lamp out of the blue slid across the floor about 3 feet and made and abrupt turn and slid into the middle of the room.
I have no explanation for this. I was accused of rigging the lamp somehow to do this, believe me I can't set the time on the VCR I can't rig a lamp to move.
The doctor and engineer actually took the lamp apart trying to figure out how I did it. Believe me I didn't. Anyway I don't have a clue what happened and am not saying it was a ghost just an incident I don't have any explanation for. To this day the doctor doesn't believe me that it wasn't planned and the phychic figures it was my spirit guide, who by the way I haven't met yet!
Anyway got rid of the lamp and never had all those friends in one room again.
Any thoughts? |
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07/05/2008 08:58:49 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by buzzrock:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
why don't you google "wake out of your stupor- there areno such things as ghosts"
- because there are not ghosts, and certinly not ghosts that do trivial shit such as move things 5 inches to the right. |
Well wasnt that rude..
I know what I saw, I was just wondering if anyone else here had a similar experience..
BTW-- desk seems fine today :)
Happy 4th all. |
Good to hear things are better. Well I had an experience, a long time ago. I was 21 years old. At that time I would take a Saturday every so often to read a book cover to cover in one day. This day it took until 2 in the morning to finish. I leaned over and put the book down on the night stand when I turned around, I read part of the time on my bed, I saw this guy plan as day standing at the foot of the bed. The book had been about space aliens invading earth in the future. The guy at the foot of the bed looked like he came from the 19th century. I generally don't start easily so I just lay there calmly.
He was looking past me, he began moving to my left side between the wall and the bed and I reacted by rolling off the bed on the opposite side. My eyes on him the whole time. I thought he was going to attack me for a second there. I watched as he went beside the bed and into the wall. Strangely he acted as if the bed were solid by moving around it but he just passed right into that wall.
I jumped up and looked around the room, I was actually shivering at that point. Sat down in my chair and was up a long time that night.
Now, I do not even believe in Ghosts. |
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07/05/2008 10:33:19 PM · #68 |
Great story  Ivory. What an interesting group of people to witness such a thing. Nowadays they might have formed a paranormal investigative team:)
 jmritz,
I admire your composure, I think I would have jumped through the ceiling. Curious though...as a non-believer, how did you reconcile what you saw? |
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07/05/2008 10:37:12 PM · #69 |
| I think that its a sign that smoking and computer porn are bad for you. Wait, scratch that porn part, smoking is bad for you. |
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07/05/2008 10:41:16 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by rox_rox:
Great story Ivory. What an interesting group of people to witness such a thing. Nowadays they might have formed a paranormal investigative team:)
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Hmmmmmm...... A DPC Paranormal Investigation GTG? ;-)
DPCPIGTG hats will be required.....
Message edited by author 2008-07-05 22:41:57. |
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07/05/2008 11:36:07 PM · #71 |
Iâm so glad  buzzrock posted this experience.
Itâs truly interesting to read the various reactions and observations among DPCers that his experience engendered.
If we brought someone forward just a few years, and showed that person an aircraft flying or even matter-of-factly flipped a switch and a light appeared, it would appear to be âmagic.â The hypothetical time traveler might even start worshiping such miraculous happenings.
I, too, have seen some pretty interesting and unusual things, particularly when I traveled in India.
So, Iâll just say âThank you, buzzrockâ for telling of your experience.
It adds just a bit more to the puzzle.
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07/05/2008 11:46:36 PM · #72 |
| Wonderful account, Ivory! Even before I was finished I wondered what happened to the lamp. And still do. And to everyone else who was there. Ach, typical those guys took apart the lamp, reverberations of the golden goose story. Why we think scientific theories will explain things when they are based on statistics and constantly subject to revision - it is an endless regress - is getting more and more beyond me. In a sense every experience is paranormal for me - the way the light shines just so, when a friend is happy, even just waking up in the morning however I may be feeling. Though I do rather hope to be spared these extraordinary (nice word, not too loaded) experiences, like jmritz's, I do not find them more miraculous than existence. |
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07/06/2008 03:45:20 AM · #73 |
I think that, posible, for a limited time after someone dies, there may be some form of oceans of energy going around. This energy can create some coincidences. I have never seen anything move or hear anything unusual.
But see my profile for a recent addition collage photo of CJE. My son, Chris is on the other side of reality as we currently know it.
I've had almost a dozen coincidences happen.
Yes we are like children, young in our knowledge like Togtog indicated.
Yes, definitely, many thigs happen that are unexplainable to our young civilization. Just think far into the future, as far as our past. We would be amzingly more advanced.
I always believe (read in a Smithsonian magazine), that ghost or aliens probably don't have humanlike fetures, since they are not in a hum`an state. More like unexplainable and unrecognizable. |
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07/06/2008 07:18:13 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by rox_rox:
Great story Ivory. What an interesting group of people to witness such a thing. Nowadays they might have formed a paranormal investigative team:)
jmritz,
I admire your composure, I think I would have jumped through the ceiling. Curious though...as a non-believer, how did you reconcile what you saw? |
I suppose I just made myself believe that it was just a dream. I was tired after a day of reading and I transitioned into sleep without even realizing it. Or it was a half awake dream and I imagined it. The only hard part for me was falling off the bed and still seeing him go into that wall.
It was my Dad that taught me to question everything. To not believe everything that was told me. And it was in 5th grade that I no longer could believe in God.
In Maine at the time they had Bible study every wednesday at 2. One day the teacher said 'close your eyes, now everyone that wants to go to Heaven raise your hand.' At the time I just knew this lady could not get me into Heaven. I kept my eyes open and didn't raise my hand. I could see everyone else had their hand raised but I guess I was an obstinate little guy. The teacher looked me in the eye and just smiled, she said' now everyone open their eyes' and continued on with the lesson. She never mentioned it to me, my act of defiance.
Now that I'm older I think ( because I think of every angle of every issue) maybe that was my one chance of getting into Heaven and I blew it. And her smile was the smile of the Devil. NA can't be.
I've stubbornly stuck to my guns not believing in any of the afterlife, alien, Bigfoot, big bang and Ghost faiths. It all has to do with faith.
There is one thing I do believe in and that is Life, all life. It is here and tangible and very precious, and I hope it continues forever in any form it can survive in. I guess that's another topic.
I hope I explained my reasoning.
This is Sunday morning and my vacation is over today. It was a great week off! |
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07/06/2008 09:40:06 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by jmritz:
I suppose I just made myself believe that it was just a dream. I was tired after a day of reading and I transitioned into sleep without even realizing it. Or it was a half awake dream and I imagined it. The only hard part for me was falling off the bed and still seeing him go into that wall. |
In line with the original post and to underscore what I've already said, this pretty much sums up my impression of the "evidence" for every anecdotal tale of visitations, moving objects, and other so-called paranormal phenomena. As I've already said, if the individual having the experience is at least marginally honest about it, a story of probably being tired and likely being half-asleep is uncovered, or some other explanation is below the surface that is more banal than supernatural.
Someone has suggested that we don't know half of what there is to know about states of consciousness or being or what have you. With that I agree. Therefore, why jmritz feels he has forced himself to believe that a rational explanation is most likely, or what state of mind he was in when he felt he was still awake and off the bed, remains a mystery. This particular mystery doesn't have to be relegated to spirit dimensions nobody has ever seen or measured, nor to extra-corporeal entities for which the evidence thus far is about as sound as the above. It could be as prosaic as the fact that he doesn't remember it as clearly as he thinks he does, having been virtually asleep, or there is some part of his psyche that still wants to believe in enchanting tales of the afterlife, as is evidenced by his latter-day thoughts on his Sunday School experience. If there is some more fantastic explanation claimed by some, they are burdened with the proof thereof.
I like the way jmritz put it: ghost-faith. It's pretty spot-on. One requires copious amounts of faith and precious little evidence to believe most paranormal claims. You would think that cool objectivity and a spirit of scientific enquiry should prevail, not ready-made descriptions of entities, behaviours, after-lives, planes, universes, and whatever else is used to fill the gap between knowledge and theory.
Someone suggested that science is "afraid" of such enquiries or something. This is an objectionable claim, because it's the job of science to enquire into real phenomena, conduct tests and experiments, and theorize. If there were anything to test and theorize about, science is the last discipline that would be "afraid" of such endeavour. The notion is frankly silly, and smacks of a persecutorial syndrome befitting a fringe cult threatened by a mainstream one.
By the way, nothing is strictly "proven", so solid evidence is all that's required. There is no proof for the theory of gravity for example, only evidence so overwhelming that we don't have to go around demanding that the scientific community categorically prove the theory of gravity. If such evidence -- or any evidence, really -- existed for claims of the supernatural, science would be all over it. The dearth of evidence is the reason there is no need to test and theorize, not the fear, or calumny, of science.
If the response is something like, "Well, a different plane presents evidence not measurable by science," or a variation of the notion that the mysteriousness of these events precludes normal scientific enquiry, then we are at last at a point where we can agree. The position then becomes a faith-based one, and science need not bother with it; nor for that matter need we concern ourselves with reason, logic, best-explanations, or anything else. You are then free to believe what you like, and I am free to reject that belief, and there is no need to demand that anything is actually provable and therefore potentially real.
(Incidentally, if the evidence for ghosts or any supernatural claim is strong, please point it out where we can all read about and assess it for ourselves.) |
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