Adobe have made my day!!! - DPChallenge Forums

07/05/2008 02:36:45 PM · #26

Originally posted by Anti-Martyr:

Originally posted by dwterry:
I suppose those who are willing to download Photoshop for free, are also willing to take just about anything else they can find ... like using somebody else's pictures and pretending they took them. It all comes down to honesty.

I'm personally glad that Trinity_12_12 is above that sort of thing. I suggest you re-think the position as well. At 19 years old, you can still change...

I pirate a ton of stuff. That being said, my copies of Adobe products are all legit. The idea that just because a person "borrows" software (it's not even stealing... someone bought it at somepoint) that they live a morally corrupt and devoid life and steal anything they can get their hands on is naive. That's coming from an 18 year old. Yeah, I've gotten in my share of trouble (we all have, I'm sure), but I'm a good person. I've never stolen ANYTHING from ANYONE. I have, however, had stuff stolen from me, so I know how much it bites. Making the association that someone who uses pirated software will steal someone else's images or possessions is like comparing an apple to an orange. It doesn't really work.

And I'd like to add (edit btw) that whenever I do use other photographer's work, it's with all credit given to them, and credit only to me where it's deserved (for example, I do some editing work for some of my friends' pictures). To say they've taken some great pictures is an understatement. I could've swiped and posted them, but I didn't.

If you "pirate a ton of stuff" then you are STEALING. So saying that you have "never stolen ANYTHING from ANYONE" is not accurate. And guess what? It isn't "like comparing an apple to an orange," Stealing is Stealing no matter what form it's in. But you, like a lot of your generation, feel that it's easier to steal it than it is to work for it and pay for it. Hopefully someday you will rethink your position on this.

aerogurl

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR

07/05/2008 03:06:01 PM · #27

I'm not gonna get into a debate about it.. and I'm not saying I pirate anything myself.. but I hate all the "high and mighty" stuff.. if you did an honest poll of photographers, more than 50% are using pirated software of some sort, whether it be plug-ins or the main software. I talk in other forums, on other sites, and have watched a few threads with pirated software discussions, and a lot more people are doing it than you might think, A LOT. Give the kid a break, just because he downloads some software doesn't mean he is going to "steal your photo" or rob a bank.

on another note, congrats to ya Trinity, I use sites like www.slickdeals.net and I also try to find coupon codes when buying online... they help when you are on a budget! :)

dwterry

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

07/05/2008 03:11:27 PM · #28

I didn't mean to suggest that he will steal a photo ... I meant it as an example that he could turn inward to gauge his own feelings ... how would he feel if his own work were stolen?

And the fact that other people on other sites are doing it, doesn't mean we can't "teach someone a better way". I don't let my kids do drugs just because others in the neighborhood are doing it. Another bad analogy? Sure. But you get the point. YES?

All I'm trying to suggest is that, when the shoe is on the other foot, it will feel a whole lot different.

Jedusi

07/05/2008 03:54:51 PM · #29

Originally posted by kawesttex:

You could do what I do, make do with Photoshop Elements!

Up to now I have always made do with PS Elements - cheap to buy and something like Elements 4 or 5 you can often get 2nd hand from Amazon for very little money.

They are astonishingly powerful. They are one of the few programmes that have taken lots of the most used features from a big (expensive prog) and offered them as a standalone at a reduced price.

Well worth a look - and usually available as a 30 day free trial anyway.

While I realise that many folk don't see taking from developers or corporations as really doing anything wrong, I simply can't condone it - there are plenty of ways to enjoy your hobby and stay legit at the same time.

I think

dwterry and others are right, that at 18 or 19 most of us didn't have much of our own so 'borrowing'
was seen as no big deal . . as you get older and realise how much effort goes into achieving anything worthwhile in life, your views tend to change - oh and hopefully you will also have more money in your pocket : )

edit for typo

Message edited by author 2008-07-05 15:56:01.

07/05/2008 04:00:26 PM · #30

I would just like to address pjangel by saying it is not stealing. Stealing and theft mean removing property from its rightful owner for ones own use. Software is copied, there is no loss of material or work involved. This is why, at least in the US until recently copyright infringement has been a purely civil matter that was dealt with via law suits and not criminal penalties.

Someone who commits copyright infringement is removing a potential sale from that author. It is called a "potential sale" because there is no proof the person or persons infringing said copyright have the means, desire, or intent to purchase rights to use said work if there was no other means to acquire said license.

I know there are companies which make profits daily and do not pay for their software. They should have their balls nailed to the ceiling because of that.

However low income, students, single business owners struggling just to pay rent. They don't have the means to buy the software, in either case the company owning the software gets no income.

One of my philosophies on life is don't create extra suffering for no gain.

So the choices are;
1) The company receives no income, the person enjoys the product anyway. (One out of two bodies are happy)
2) The company receives no income, the person does not enjoy the product. (No one is happy)

I don't even bring the third party into that argument, the people that might benefit from that persons art, if provided for free. One less artist in the world isn't good for anyone.

Before anyone jumps in saying photoshop is not required, so the artist should just suck it up and move on. I do not believe it is in anyones right to judge or dictate the process one artist uses to produce their works. It is easy to say, well I wouldn't do that so no one else should, but if you aren't willing to walk in their shoes, pay their bills, live with their problems... People have different means and therefore different ends to those means.

But again, if someone would purchase it if given no other choice then they should because otherwise it is cheating the company out of their profits.

07/05/2008 04:12:59 PM · #31

togtog,
IMO cheating someone out of their profits is still stealing.

07/05/2008 04:16:52 PM · #32

Originally posted by pjangel:

togtog,
IMO cheating someone out of their profits is still stealing.

And you would be correct, I was not disagreeing with that point.

However "potential" profits is an entirely different thing to guarantied profits. If you take what you said, literally, it means anyone in the world who is not rich, is stealing from millions of companies by not buying their products. Since that would cheat companies out of profits they would have otherwise.

07/05/2008 04:18:18 PM · #33

Originally posted by togtog:

If you take what you said, literally, it means anyone in the world who is not rich, is stealing from millions of companies by not buying their products. Since that would cheat companies out of profits they would have otherwise.

I take it that English is not your strong point, then.

07/05/2008 04:23:13 PM · #34

Originally posted by Mr_Pants:

Originally posted by togtog:
If you take what you said, literally, it means anyone in the world who is not rich, is stealing from millions of companies by not buying their products. Since that would cheat companies out of profits they would have otherwise.

I take it that English is not your strong point, then.

Sighs, of all the websites that should understand copyright and digital goods...

I argued, that if someone has no ability in the world to buy something, then it should be ok for them to make a copy if it for free! NO SALE IS LOST BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T BUY IT ANYWAY, THEREFORE NO THEFT!

Sorry for the caps.

07/05/2008 04:27:32 PM · #35

Originally posted by togtog:

Originally posted by Mr_Pants:

Originally posted by togtog:
If you take what you said, literally, it means anyone in the world who is not rich, is stealing from millions of companies by not buying their products. Since that would cheat companies out of profits they would have otherwise.

I take it that English is not your strong point, then.

Sighs, of all the websites that should understand copyright and digital goods...

I argued, that if someone has no ability in the world to buy something, then it should be ok for them to make a copy if it for free! NO SALE IS LOST BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T BUY IT ANYWAY, THEREFORE NO THEFT!

Sorry for the caps.

It seems that you fail to understand that, without any compulsion to buy (i.e. the possibility of being sued for copyright theft), there would be no incentive for anyone to purchase. Don't try to justify your poor practices by dragging down everyone else.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/05/2008 04:31:09 PM · #36

Originally posted by Mr_Pants:

Originally posted by togtog:

Originally posted by Mr_Pants:

Originally posted by togtog:
If you take what you said, literally, it means anyone in the world who is not rich, is stealing from millions of companies by not buying their products. Since that would cheat companies out of profits they would have otherwise.

I take it that English is not your strong point, then.

Sighs, of all the websites that should understand copyright and digital goods...

I argued, that if someone has no ability in the world to buy something, then it should be ok for them to make a copy if it for free! NO SALE IS LOST BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T BUY IT ANYWAY, THEREFORE NO THEFT!

Sorry for the caps.

It seems that you fail to understand that, without any compulsion to buy (i.e. the possibility of being sued for copyright theft), there would be no incentive for anyone to purchase. Don't try to justify your poor practices by dragging down everyone else.

So the only reason anyone does anything right, is because of the threat of punishment hanging over them?

I'll tell you what hangs over my head, hurting other people, I don't want to hurt other people, therefore I don't, I could and get away with it, but it would not make me happy. It is funny, this is almost exactly like another thread going on at this very moment, GeneralE would know to which I refer, lol...

Anyway, so laws are the only reason people do the right thing, or religion?

kawesttex

Apple iPhone 11 Pro

07/05/2008 04:34:29 PM · #37

Thank you Trinity for doing the RIGHT thing, and I hope some day to own CS* (the current version that I can afford) through a purchase. Till that day I will continue to use PS Elements.

07/05/2008 04:37:20 PM · #38

Originally posted by togtog:

Originally posted by Mr_Pants:

Originally posted by togtog:

Originally posted by Mr_Pants:

Originally posted by togtog:
If you take what you said, literally, it means anyone in the world who is not rich, is stealing from millions of companies by not buying their products. Since that would cheat companies out of profits they would have otherwise.

I take it that English is not your strong point, then.

Sighs, of all the websites that should understand copyright and digital goods...

I argued, that if someone has no ability in the world to buy something, then it should be ok for them to make a copy if it for free! NO SALE IS LOST BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T BUY IT ANYWAY, THEREFORE NO THEFT!

Sorry for the caps.

It seems that you fail to understand that, without any compulsion to buy (i.e. the possibility of being sued for copyright theft), there would be no incentive for anyone to purchase. Don't try to justify your poor practices by dragging down everyone else.

So the only reason anyone does anything right, is because of the threat of punishment hanging over them?

I'll tell you what hangs over my head, hurting other people, I don't want to hurt other people, therefore I don't, I could and get away with it, but it would not make me happy. It is funny, this is almost exactly like another thread going on at this very moment, GeneralE would know to which I refer, lol...

Anyway, so laws are the only reason people do the right thing, or religion?

Pretty much the only reason people do the right thing is, as you imply, due to the threat of some sort of recrimination. Whether this is set up through impressioning by parents or through some form of religious beliefs, it matters not. Without a framework to guide, there will be no adherence to standards. The threat of court action is merely a reinforcement of the value-set that any good parents would wish to instil in their children.

07/05/2008 04:41:07 PM · #39

Originally posted by Mr_Pants:

Originally posted by togtog:
Anyway, so laws are the only reason people do the right thing, or religion?

Pretty much the only reason people do the right thing is, as you imply, due to the threat of some sort of recrimination. Whether this is set up through impressioning by parents or through some form of religious beliefs, it matters not. Without a framework to guide, there will be no adherence to standards. The threat of court action is merely a reinforcement of the value-set that any good parents would wish to instil in their children.

Maybe that is the difference. I was never punished as a child. If I did something wrong my mother would sigh and talk to me about how it would feel if the same thing happened to me and how I thought it made her feel when I hurt someone else. She then granted me the right to do whatever I wanted, I never did. I didn't want to make her sad, I didn't want to make anyone sad. That has followed me to this day.

Nikon NIKKOR Z 24-120 f/4 S

07/05/2008 04:44:06 PM · #40

Originally posted by togtog:

Originally posted by Mr_Pants:

Originally posted by togtog:
Anyway, so laws are the only reason people do the right thing, or religion?

Pretty much the only reason people do the right thing is, as you imply, due to the threat of some sort of recrimination. Whether this is set up through impressioning by parents or through some form of religious beliefs, it matters not. Without a framework to guide, there will be no adherence to standards. The threat of court action is merely a reinforcement of the value-set that any good parents would wish to instil in their children.

Maybe that is the difference. I was never punished as a child. If I did something wrong my mother would sigh and talk to me about how it would feel if the same thing happened to me and how I thought it made her feel when I hurt someone else. She then granted me the right to do whatever I wanted, I never did. I didn't want to make her sad, I didn't want to make anyone sad. That has followed me to this day.

Perhaps in your case, the 'recrimination' would have been being saddled with a sense of having let down your mother. Any sanction doesn't always necessarily have to be either harsh or, indeed, physical.

bassbone

Nikon Z8

07/05/2008 04:44:39 PM · #41

It doesn't take punishment to teach your child. MrPants never suggested such. By sitting down and talking with you, your mother was providing you the context for following the law (civil or criminal).

Originally posted by togtog:

07/05/2008 04:46:49 PM · #42

So I guess that would make me really unusual... I'm gay (which the religious right is against) and I think that stealing/theft/copyright infringement, or whatever you want to call it, is wrong according to the law. WOW, I wonder how I've made it this far in life? LOL I also believe that if you can't afford to have something it doesn't mean you should be able to take it for free.
Sometimes people just have to "agree to disagree", which I'm doing in this thread and the other thread that you are referring to. We will always have differing opinions and we all have our own reasons for believing the way that we do on every subject.

Originally posted by togtog:

07/05/2008 04:51:48 PM · #43

Originally posted by kawesttex:

Thank you Trinity for doing the RIGHT thing, and I hope some day to own CS* (the current version that I can afford) through a purchase. Till that day I will continue to use PS Elements.

You have both done the right thing!

Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM

07/05/2008 04:55:00 PM · #44

Originally posted by bassbone:

Incorrect assumption. You assume all crime causes harm to another. Speeding on an empty road does not cause harm nor threat, except to oneself, however is just as illegal as doing so on a busy street.

I was saying, if someone had the money to buy the software they should, otherwise they are hurting that company and all the people who work there. It is why I pay for my shareware even though I know where to get the serial numbers for them. They are affordable and I use them, so I pay for them.

However when someone is unable to pay the price, the company loses regardless, a person cannot buy what they cannot afford. It is therefore not wrong in my view for them to use it freely. Nor do I believe they are immoral, non-human, criminal thieves that are on the path to committing bank robbery.

If they have the means, then they should, period.

Also note, by the same rule I believe if someone uses something for free, and turns a profit, 100% of that profit should be used to pay for which they use freely and not pizzas and movies and whatever else. Otherwise again they are cheating the company and everyone who works there.

SteveJ

Canon EOS-7D

07/05/2008 04:56:39 PM · #45

I can't believe the number of law abiding people we have here. I am playing Devil's Advocate here by the way. All the decent, honourable members and users who state how wrong it is to steal, borrow, call it what you like. None have ever taken a pencil at work and put it in their pocket?? Been handed a ticket in a car park with a couple of hours left on it? These are theft!

To determine that someone who is 18/19/20 years old and an idiot is discriminatory and an insult to young people. Remember, these kids have been raised in a society created by us, where the internet is a source of anything you want, usually free. I don't condone their actions or opinions, nor do I condemn their honesty.

I just hope no-one who has posted here has ever copied a friend's CD or downloaded MP3s.

Just my two pence worth, normal service is now resumed:)

Message edited by author 2008-07-05 16:57:35.

dwterry

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

07/05/2008 05:07:40 PM · #46

My disagreement comes from the slippery slope of "just when will I decide I can afford what I now take for free".

Surely, if I buy another camera or lens (especially a nice DSLR or a beautiful "L" lens) I won't be able to afford the software. I can easily convince myself that I can't afford to do both. So at what point do I have to "weigh the scales" to decide that it's important to buy the software now and get the lens later? As long as taking the software for free is easy ... I'll probably end up taking the easy choice.

I'm just saying ... while I respect your idea of always paying for that which you can afford, I have trouble expecting other people to manage to get back off the slippery slope once they are on it. Maybe you were there, maybe you successfully got off the slope yourself. In which case I applaud your efforts. I just think a lot of other people, maybe not as well raised as yourself, will have a more difficult time.

It's easier to avoid getting "hooked" if you avoid trying it in the first place.

kawesttex

Apple iPhone 11 Pro

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/05/2008 05:09:30 PM · #47

Originally posted by togtog:

Speeding on an empty road does not cause harm nor threat, except to oneself, however is just as illegal as doing so on a busy street.

I am glad you are all knowing on what is around the corner and I hope we don't meet on the road!

Originally posted by SteveJ:

I just hope no-one who has posted here has ever copied a friend's CD or downloaded MP3s.

This answer would be no I have not. Yes, I took pens and pencils from work (USAF) and when I discovered them in my pocket when I got home I would put them in a cup, when the cup got full it went back to work. Besides the pens sucked! :-)

No school supplies for the children for me. I BOUGHT them.

dwterry

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

07/05/2008 05:12:58 PM · #48

Originally posted by SteveJ:

I just hope no-one who has posted here has ever copied a friend's CD or downloaded MP3s.

Oh, I used to! I'll readily confess to that. I found it interesting that I would never copy a friend's CD (I found it to be morally wrong), but yet I had no trouble downloading an MP3. This thought nagged at me for a long time until finally I deleted my "free" MP3s and switched to nothing but purchased MP3s.

Now I once again have a growing collection of music. All of it legitimate. I can thank iTunes and Amazon.com for that.

I surely don't believe anyone is perfect. And I'll be the last one to want to be their judge or jury as I know all too well my own imperfections. The only point to my messages here has been to try to help people to "make the right choice".

07/05/2008 05:13:18 PM · #49

Originally posted by SteveJ:

I just hope no-one who has posted here has ever copied a friend's CD or downloaded MP3s.

Just my two pence worth, normal service is now resumed:)

Dang, if I knew to copy someone's CD's or had used Napster when it was up and running, I could have saved the $4033 dollars I've spent purchasing music through itunes over the last 4 years!!
I guess at my age I'm just not that smart :)