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 05/30/2008 12:44:00 PM · #26
Originally posted by Citadel:
Consumers are cheap. Give them a viable alternative however and they might be willing to fork over the dough


I don't think that's totally true... people will pay for what they value. If you value top end electronics you'll pay for them. If you value cars, you pay for that kind of stuff. Do people look for sales etc? of course, but in the end if they value something they'll pay what it's worth... I've learned the hard way that 9 times out of 10 the ones balking about the price of this print or that package or the "Just Give me the CD", usually have no idea what goes into creating a great photo, don't really care, and will got to the photo studio at wal-mart and get their $9.99 deal... do you want those people or do you want customers that value the work you do and are willing to pay a premium to get great photos and great prints.
 05/30/2008 01:05:48 PM · #27
Found a photographer who did my brother-in-law's wedding...

Full packages start at $4300! Two photographers, 800-1000 shots, all color corrected. Two copies on disk. Thumbnail album of all shots. He offers discounts if you buy prints early and if you buy prints in advance. Otherwise, you have six months to order.

But he gives a full release too.

For one photographer, he starts at $2900.

Not bad for essentially a few hours of work. And with the thumbnail book, they get to see good prints and like Citadel said, they can compare Walmart to that.
 05/30/2008 01:09:27 PM · #28
Originally posted by Citadel:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
No. The print is the final product the image files are the "plans" for the print.


In a sense I agree, but customers like to be able to view their shots digitally now too. The photographer my fiancee and I are going with for our wedding is selling us the shots and part of the bundle is some prints. She also offers a book to go with the package. ($300 extra or so?)

That way, if I take the images off the DVD and get them printed and they look like crap I can blame Wal-mart since I have good prints to compare to.

I get to throw the DVD into the player and can watch a slideshow rather than sitting around a photo album. If I want to look at a book I still have that option though.

The alternative? My mom (*sigh*) was going to take the 8 x 10 my brother gave her, have it scanned, then get it printed at Wal-mart. The photographer would get nothing. Fortunately my brother learned some morals in his travels and forbid her from doing that. Consumers are cheap. Give them a viable alternative however and they might be willing to fork over the dough


The problem is that when the prints from Wal Mart look crappy, most consumers would blame the photographer, not Wal Mart. You obviously know better.

I'm not really talking about DVD slideshows that are part of a package though, those can be put together in ways that make it difficult to extract single files. I'm talking about the photogarpher who simply hands over a DVD with a bunch of image files on it.

05/30/2008 01:11:38 PM · #29
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Citadel:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
No. The print is the final product the image files are the "plans" for the print.


In a sense I agree, but customers like to be able to view their shots digitally now too. The photographer my fiancee and I are going with for our wedding is selling us the shots and part of the bundle is some prints. She also offers a book to go with the package. ($300 extra or so?)

That way, if I take the images off the DVD and get them printed and they look like crap I can blame Wal-mart since I have good prints to compare to.

I get to throw the DVD into the player and can watch a slideshow rather than sitting around a photo album. If I want to look at a book I still have that option though.

The alternative? My mom (*sigh*) was going to take the 8 x 10 my brother gave her, have it scanned, then get it printed at Wal-mart. The photographer would get nothing. Fortunately my brother learned some morals in his travels and forbid her from doing that. Consumers are cheap. Give them a viable alternative however and they might be willing to fork over the dough


The problem is that when the prints from Wal Mart look crappy, most consumers would blame the photographer, not Wal Mart. You obviously know better.

I'm not really talking about DVD slideshows that are part of a package though, those can be put together in ways that make it difficult to extract single files. I'm talking about the photogarpher who simply hands over a DVD with a bunch of image files on it.


Just for the record, MOST prints from Walmart will NOT look crappy. Their in-store printers are among the highest rated. FYI.

Let's use CVS or Rite-Aid for our bad example.
 05/30/2008 02:01:28 PM · #30
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:


Not bad for essentially a few hours of work. And with the thumbnail book, they get to see good prints and like Citadel said, they can compare Walmart to that.


And the training, marketing, artistic eye not to mention probably $40,000 in gear brought to the wedding.

There are only so many saturdays in a year. And in most climates fewer that you can actually book a wedding on (mid january isn't much in demand). So maybe 30 saturdays a year and 15 more friday or oddball weekday weddings that won't pay as much - I get calls all the time for 2 hours - ceremony and formal coverage.

After cost of doing business of $20,000 a year, taxes, etc. I need to gross $100,000 lets say to net $40,000. If i wanted to work for less i'd just go get a job - it's a lot less hours, less stress, etc. I'd take my $40,000 I spent on gear and PS and such and invest it someplace.

So to make $100,000 on 30 weddings and 15 part jobs I'd have to average $3500/wedding more or less. I don't really care (in the big picture) what I give them or what I have to do to avg $3500/wedding. If I average $1200 then that's an issue I can't have!

So what do I have to do to get $3500 a wedding, and what do I have to do to get 30 weddings? Giving a CD might work for becker or yervant as they can get $3500/wedding, but guess what? They do albums! Hmm... perhaps they know something you don't? Like it's all about the art - the finished product. Show a bride a multi volume 11x14 bridal album and to a 4 hour engagemnt session on locaiton, etc and now you've given them a reason, a justification, to spend $3500. Shoot like many photogs out there (direct flash on a rebel with a kit lens) and give them a disk and you're insane if you expect to get more than $600-800 for that. The people will to spend $4800 on wedding photog expect more.

I've met photogs that get $7000 for a family portrait - that includes a lot more than 1 hour and a disk. It's an inhome consultation on where the port will hang, meetings on clothing, locations, etc and the main print is likely a 4x6 - FOOT print that is, framed and delivered with hanging included. But you'll find it nearly impossible to show a disk and ask for $7000 on the promise that mpix can do the canvas for them.

"Here's a disk and a website that prints real good (or cheap), where's my check?" isn't a model that will make you a well paid photographer. It's only doing half the job, so expect to only get paid half as much, if that.

If you feel or they want a CD, give them a lo res copy of the poses they buy. I do that for weddings - it's good for email, web use, slideshows, wallpaper on computers and phones, digital picture frames, etc. Again, you're providing them a service at this point so charge for it!
 05/30/2008 02:03:23 PM · #31
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:


Just for the record, MOST prints from Walmart will NOT look crappy. Their in-store printers are among the highest rated. FYI.

Let's use CVS or Rite-Aid for our bad example.


It's a gamble - they're VERY inconsistent at walmart. they don't calibrate their machinery as often either. I once heard someone brag how the place they use (costco maybe...) calibrated weekly! My lab does it DAILY, and with every paper change so on a busy day it can be several times a day. There is NO comparison between a pro lab and a consumer lab, quality wise. May be the same machines in some cases, but not the same end result.
 05/30/2008 03:49:35 PM · #32
Originally posted by Eyesup:
I'm willing to bet if you really took a look at what it cost you to do what you do this conversation would be very different.

Guys.... I didn't say I wanted a lower cost model! If anything I want a model that drives more sales at higher prices and avoids the perception that I'm charging $9 for a 4x6 print that they believe costs me $.27. Believe me, I know how much it cost me to produce that first 4x6 and what it takes to have a sustainable business. I'm trying to find a model that increases my profit and more clearly reflects what people are paying for. If people want lowest cost I send them to Walmart or Target for their portraits.
 05/30/2008 03:52:34 PM · #33
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Citadel:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
No. The print is the final product the image files are the "plans" for the print.


In a sense I agree, but customers like to be able to view their shots digitally now too. The photographer my fiancee and I are going with for our wedding is selling us the shots and part of the bundle is some prints. She also offers a book to go with the package. ($300 extra or so?)

That way, if I take the images off the DVD and get them printed and they look like crap I can blame Wal-mart since I have good prints to compare to.

I get to throw the DVD into the player and can watch a slideshow rather than sitting around a photo album. If I want to look at a book I still have that option though.

The alternative? My mom (*sigh*) was going to take the 8 x 10 my brother gave her, have it scanned, then get it printed at Wal-mart. The photographer would get nothing. Fortunately my brother learned some morals in his travels and forbid her from doing that. Consumers are cheap. Give them a viable alternative however and they might be willing to fork over the dough


The problem is that when the prints from Wal Mart look crappy, most consumers would blame the photographer, not Wal Mart. You obviously know better.

I'm not really talking about DVD slideshows that are part of a package though, those can be put together in ways that make it difficult to extract single files. I'm talking about the photogarpher who simply hands over a DVD with a bunch of image files on it.


Just for the record, MOST prints from Walmart will NOT look crappy. Their in-store printers are among the highest rated. FYI.

Let's use CVS or Rite-Aid for our bad example.


I know that all of the prints I give my clients will be the best prints possible.

As for the quality of in-store minilabs, it depends largely on the store. After working for a few years in a pro-lab that calibrated 3x/day, I relocated to go to school and went to work in a "superstore" photo-lab. The place was a wreck. People were still getting prints and the store was happy to sell them even though maintenance hadn't been done on the machines for months and they had no idea how to calibrate. I had to convince them to shut the place down for a day in order to let me do the maintenance and get everything calibrated. It was OK after that as long as they stuck to the maintenance and calibration schedule. Still, even when they do calibrate, there is one tolerance for "consumer" grade machines and a much tighter tolerance for professional grade machines.

Message edited by author 2008-05-30 16:00:45.
 05/31/2008 07:16:48 AM · #34
I do have a question about giving CDs out.
I give CDs only resized and enhanced versions not the raw. Here is the thing, if client orders say 10 5X7 photos from me, print. after they got the photos, there is a chance of those images can be scanned and enlarged. I do understand that result would be awful but we can't stop them doing that. When they enlarge a small print, and put on their wall, and tell their friends they got that from me, wouldn't be bad repetition? Instead, why not give them already enhanced selected resized photos, at least the ones they ordered, so if they want a larger print later on they can do it from that cd instead of scanning and ruin the photo.

My resized photos in cds I give let people print up to 8X10 and larger than that size I ask them come to me for quality prints.

PS: I did test Wal-Mart print vs. a pro print lab. Try B&W photos... and you'll see the bluish color on Wal-Mart's photos, but pure B7W on pro labs. I don't think there is even question what would be better for our clients. I think that also depends on our business. Low budget photography studio possibly uses Wal-Mart, but higher photography studios I don't think they order from Wal-Mart.

Message edited by author 2008-05-31 07:21:37.
 05/31/2008 08:07:26 AM · #35
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
I think that also depends on our business. Low budget photography studio possibly uses Wal-Mart, but higher photography studios I don't think they order from Wal-Mart.


My pro lab, assuming I handle the color correction, is cheaper than walmart, doesn't charge me sales tax, provides training, samples, supports my local PPA affiliated organizaiton and more. Even if I let them handle the color most sizes are still cheaper than walmart. And the product selection isn't even close - I get more sizes, paper choices, die cutting, templates, sports products, press products, and the shipping is free so I'm not burning my gas, and my time, to to fetch prints.

I figure if a client buys a pose then giving them a low res (up to 1280 on the long side) is reasonable - pretty much for the reasons you stated. I do it for seniors without question on all but my lowest package. Other portrait types they just need to ask. Weddings cost extra.
 06/17/2008 08:56:24 PM · #36
Back when we had our wedding (prior to the digital age), I selected a part time photographer who gave me the 4x5 negatives. I've since scanned the 8x10 prints and created a mouseover webpage from it.

Focuspoints right about giving them a cd version of the 8x10's bought.
That could give more publicity and work from their freinds and relatives.

What's to prevent them from scanning them?

An alternative is producing a SlideShow video using ProShow Producer.
It claims it can copy-protect the DVD's burned. I haven't tested that feature, yet. It's excellent and easy to use, adding motion, and more.
 06/18/2008 05:09:55 PM · #37
Originally posted by justamistere:
Back when we had our wedding (prior to the digital age), I selected a part time photographer who gave me the 4x5 negatives. I've since scanned the 8x10 prints and created a mouseover webpage from it.

Focuspoints right about giving them a cd version of the 8x10's bought.
That could give more publicity and work from their freinds and relatives.

What's to prevent them from scanning them?

An alternative is producing a SlideShow video using ProShow Producer.
It claims it can copy-protect the DVD's burned. I haven't tested that feature, yet. It's excellent and easy to use, adding motion, and more.


If someone wants to steal the image they will. It gets easier every day and what's right or wrong becomes more gray as well. It's pretty much human nature to want as much as possible for as little (money/effort) as possible. One needs a business model and pricing that maximizes profits now, in the future and protects one's reputation. If you give out the files then you have no control over the quality of prints the client may make or get. That's your reputation they're toying with. Believe me, if they get a print at costco or walmart et al and it's too dark or green or whatever and they notice and they complain (two chances to let a bad print slip through right there) I would bet the guy at the counter will blame the photographer - 'It's the files, ma'am. They're too dark and off color. Our printer is calibrated every year and I make $7.00 an hour and been here 2 weeks so I know it's not us!'

My objective as a business owner is to provide a product that people will want to pay me enough for that I can pay me and my employees and turn a profit so that I will have a business next year and the year after.
If giving / selling the image files fits with that goal then great I'll do it. If not, then it makes no sense to do it.

There is no 'right' answer - what works for today or you or your market segment may or may not work for someone else or even work next year. The $800 bride is very different from the $2000 bride from the $5000 bride in what they want and expect from a photographer.

Walmart Photo Studios just went digital around here. They want an average sale of $100. They now sell files - $69 for one or $119 for all of them. (7 to 15 is how many they take in a session. ) As long as they get their $100 average they don't care if you take prints or files. To be honest, neither do I - pay me $2500 and I'll give you a 30 side 10x10 album and lots of other stuff, but if all you want is a CD for the same price...who am I to argue? Most folks when given the choice won't be willing to pay as much for the CD - they still have to spend the money on the album and prints. They're just trying to get off cheap.

Sorry it that was rambling..I got interrupted 4 times while typing it.

Message edited by author 2008-06-18 17:10:41.
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