Change comments? YES, Change scores? NO.

Olympus 7-14mm f/4.0 Zuiko Digital Zoom

06/14/2008 06:03:11 AM · #1

I think this is the only place where the supposedly democratic process of voting is, to be blunt, little more than a joke.

Not all voters do it, but nowhere else - online or in real life - have I ever seen a place where people are allowed to cast their votes, then change them with impunity during the voting period.

It's a frigging travesty of the supposedly democratic voting process.

Everyone has ample opportunity to look at the thumbnails in a challenge BEFORE they vote. Surely people here have enough of an eye that it's easy to compare similar pics and choose the best of them, in thumbnail form.

But once you've cast a vote on a pic, good or bad...THAT IS IT. If you did/didn't like the shot at the time you voted, and have regrets about your vote later, TOUGH. Live with it. I think it's good to be able to change comments, but not the score.

So how about it...keep the ability to change comments, but when you cast a vote, it is locked in forever.

I feel this process will make people really LOOK at the pictures, and really THINK about the score they are giving, because it's for good.

Rant over.

Message edited by author 2008-06-14 06:04:02.

one2one

Olympus E-5

06/14/2008 07:30:48 AM · #2

Too many people, like myself, vote then revote at a later date to comment or to readjust their votes. This isn't an elelction, it's not going to change anything in real life. We're just voting on pictures. I vote almost everything between 4 and 7 on my first run. Then I review and adjust my views/votes/comments. And I like it that way.

SaraR

Sony Alpha a7R III

Sony FE 24-70mm f/2.8 GM

06/14/2008 07:41:22 AM · #3

Originally posted by Jac:

Ditto, and I would also suggest that voters like myself and Jac are the ones who spend looking at individual photographs, revisiting them, and generally treat the voting process with respect.

JMart

Nikon D80

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

06/14/2008 07:47:44 AM · #4

Sorry, I think it's more important to get the vote "correct" (from the voter's perspective) than to just get first impressions. Art is not something that should rely on only first impressions and I don't imagine most DPCers would start by just looking at the whole field and then go back to vote.

This is also part of the learning experience. I may overlook elements in certain shots that are easier to see after voting on the whole field of pics. So what I learn from my 'first impression' vote is what I usually stick with, but I also want to be able to use what I learned from the field to modify shots I didn't quite get right the first time.

I'm really not sure why this is an issue anyhow. If it's too troubling to see the score of a shot move up or down when the number of votes doesn't change then you can turn off the real time scoring in your options and not be troubled by seeing people think & rethink about that shot.

It's still one vote per person and I probably spend more time overall on shots because of the fact that I can go back and change my vote after considering a shot for a second & even a third time.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

06/14/2008 10:07:27 AM · #5

Sorry to be a rules lawyer, but it's also specifically against the rules to vote on an image in thumbnail form, as you seem to suggest should be done before the actual vote is cast. Anyway, not only is this impractical, it's completely impossible (and grossly unfair) to judge the qualities of an image at 120x120.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

06/14/2008 11:34:53 AM · #6

Count me as one who "sorts" during voting.

I do a quick pass in one sitting and assign images to three "pools"; 4,5, and 6. I always go back and revisit at least the 6's, and study them at greater length, raising some of them to 7,8,9, or 10 as I go. If I have the time, I will revisit the 5's as well; some of them go up a point, or occasionally even more, and a few drop a point.

I rarely revisit the 4's.

I'm not sure why anyone would think this abnormal or undesirable. I have juried live exhibitions and we do a similar cull of the entries there, moving images into sub-categories and then revisiting the best of them as we narrow down our scoring.

R.

one2one

Olympus E-5

Olympus 7-14mm f/4.0 Zuiko Digital Zoom

06/14/2008 12:00:56 PM · #7

Originally posted by Louis:

I can't do that even if I wanted to. I'm way too curious as a photographer to only look at a thumbnail and judge it by that one small rendition of the actual image. I have tried, mind you, but felt like I wasn't doing the image any justice and you miss a heck of a lot of details. Totally not fair to any photographer who participates in a challenge no matter his/her skills.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

06/14/2008 05:52:23 PM · #8

Sorry, but I simply cannot agree with your proposal. I am in the same boat as Robert

Bear_Musicin that I normally make a few passes before reaching a final scoring decision. Your proposal would have me cast a vote and not enable me to re-visit anyone's photo, a factor which would cost most of the players some points.

Judging by your comments I get the impression you earnestly believe that people that change their scores do so to lower them... something that is not the case in a lot of instance.

As Robert so eloquently stated: " I'm not sure why anyone would think this abnormal or undesirable."

Ray

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

06/14/2008 06:29:50 PM · #9

Originally posted by Louis:

I knew I would be in the minority on this issue, and I have heard all the arguments before (and admittedly was unaware of how live exhibitions are juried).

I sort the herd, as it were (that's where the thumbs come in handy), take note of the really good ones that appeal to me, then vote. But to me this whole thing of voting, then going back and changing your score...to me that is just plain indecisiveness, second-guessing, a sign that you do not trust your eye or instinct.

In my line of work I must make definitive decisions based on knowledge and instinct. If I don't, I could easily end up badly hurt, or dead, as could people's beloved horses. So that is how I tend to be in all aspects of life, photography included, whether I am voting or shooting for a challenge.

Hey Ray, good to see you join the discussion! I know that many voters do bump pix up in scores, but yes there are definitely others who abuse the freedom given them and lower their scores.

I know I am tilting at windmills, but hey what else is there to do in Kemptville? ;-)

Message edited by author 2008-06-14 18:39:57.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

06/14/2008 10:05:37 PM · #10

Originally posted by snaffles:

I know I am tilting at windmills, but hey what else is there to do in Kemptville? ;-)

Let me see, Hay Day is this weekend and they are having a "Medieval Festival" at Upper Canada VIllage, and then there is the Dandelion Festival Photo Contest that runs till the end of the month... that could keep you busy for a bit.

Regarding the definitive action portion of your argument, I spent 30 years in the RCMPolice and found that making rash decisions caused a great deal more grief than careful consideration of the issue at hand. Considering that the vast majority of my reviews end up with higher scores I would tend to think that a sober second reflection is the right manner of proceeding for me.

Ray

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

06/15/2008 11:56:01 AM · #11

I hear you, Ray. I know there's tons of stuff around to shoot, just joking.

But I don't mean making rash decisions, I mean immediate and correct decisions. Here are some real-life examples:

a) Seeing the most valuable horse in the property down in his stall, a quick inspection and OMFG he's colicking, the owners are away for the weekend, I'm the only person on the farm, and oh yeah I'm supposed to be at another farm 45 minutes away in 30 minutes' time, and the only people nearby who could help are two horse newbies...what do you do?

b) Riding a huge 1500lb TB/Clyde mare home from a quiet uneventful bareback hack (I'm wearing a crash vest, helmet and chaps) along a dirt road, when suddenly every muscle in her body freezes up, she stands perfectly still but is so terrified of the strange rustling in the bushes 30 feet ahead that I can FEEL her heart pounding. Out of the bushes emerges a black bear who leisurely saunters across the road. The horse wants to whip round and run like snot away from home, but if we do that, the bear may well give chase and oh yeah she could manage to lose me, then crash into traffic...what do you do?

c) Teaching a riding lesson, at an eventing barn, where the kids are popping 18-inch high jumps, and one of the students is riding an old pony who LOVES to jump. As she rides back to the group at a trot, slowing to the walk, the pony gets a line to a 3' high square oxer (set up for next lesson) next to me and brattily revvs into an unexpected canter. The startled girl stays on her but can't slow or turn the pony, gets an OMG look on her face as the pony approaches the oxer...what do you do?

So that's what I mean by definitive action. I had to choose the safest course of action for me and the animals and occasional human in my care, immediately. In these scenarios, and too many others like them, I certainly didn't have the luxury of pondering what to do. I have to go with my gut. That's why I vote the way I do.

As for how all the above scenarios ended?

a) Called the owners and told them what's going on; called the newbies in so they can help and learn what colic looks like, and get them to help me with basic first aid, then walk him; call the other girl who works p/t at my next barn and get her to do as much of my work as she can. Vet finally arrives, sorts out horse, I stay til 4 am to ensure he will not relapse. Then go do unfinished work at other barn and return to colicky horse to continue monitoring him. Rinse and repeat 3x. Very tiring weekend.

b) I take advantage of the mare's fear and make her stand perfectly still until bear vanishes from view. Then I jump off and lead her home, safer for me and easier for me to control and reassure her from the ground. A few loud theatrical snorts and some prancing, and we're home 15 minutes later. Never see bear again.

c) Calmly call out, 'Grab mane!' which she did, and what a great jump it was! If I tried to stop the pony she may have deked out and sent the girl flying, or crashed into the jump herself. I knew the pony would clear the jump so I wasn't worried about her, I just needed the girl to stay with the pony so she wouldn't get left behind. Also the kid is one of MY students, so I know she knows how to stick to a horse! After a safe landing she was exhilirated!

So that is just a very teeny tiny idea of what my day-to-day job entails. Emergencies can arise in a flash, help may or may not be available, and someone has to keep their cool and make the decisions.

And that, ladies and gents, is why I vote the way I do, unpopular a system as it clearly is.

JMart

Nikon D80

06/15/2008 12:14:09 PM · #12

Originally posted by snaffles:

snip...going back and changing your score...to me that is just plain indecisiveness, second-guessing, a sign that you do not trust your eye or instinct.

I'd agree with this point one some levels as I am indecisive and don't trust my first impression while voting on others' art work (and I can respect your career influencing the way you operate in general). I'm still a beginner as a photographer, so I'll overlook elements of a few photos that I may catch the second time around. If I'm required to be decisive and instinctive by not being allowed to alter my vote I think that would take away from the learning process, at least for me.

I'd be curious how many votes are actually changed and how many voters don't go back and change a few. My wild guess is that most people vote and leave it the way they voted the first time.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

06/15/2008 12:21:23 PM · #13

Judging a photo is a bit different than making life and death decisions, don't ya think? ;o\

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

06/15/2008 12:23:01 PM · #14

Originally posted by snaffles:

But I don't mean making rash decisions, I mean immediate and correct decisions.

We have constructed the challenges so that this type of decision-making is not required. When triaging an accident victim, time is of the essence; in contemplating, evaluating, analyzing, and criticizing art, it is not necessary, and usually undesirable.

If you "miss something" at the accident scene, someone might die. If you miss something at first when looking at a picture, but later "see" it, you have gained knowledge and understanding, and maybe changed your vote.

Now, it might be interesting to run a challenge where "speed-voting" is required -- maybe you have to vote within ten seconds or it will automatically advance to the next image -- but under the current set-up, I don't see the point of asking people to vote more quickly; usually, we are trying to encourage the opposite.

JMart

Nikon D80

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

06/15/2008 12:26:10 PM · #15

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Now, it might be interesting to run a challenge where "speed-voting" is required -- maybe you have to vote within ten seconds or it will automatically advance to the next image

Uh, wouldn't that be a bit slow for the average voter :-P

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

06/15/2008 12:51:21 PM · #16

Originally posted by JMart:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Now, it might be interesting to run a challenge where "speed-voting" is required -- maybe you have to vote within ten seconds or it will automatically advance to the next image

Uh, wouldn't that be a bit slow for the average voter :-P

Yup. :-(