Venting, venting, venting - DPChallenge Forums

06/10/2008 07:32:10 PM · #51

Well I think my rant has well and truly played out. I've said all I wanted to say I used this forum to vent and rant. And that I did. I still leave here with the same views I started it with. Call me arrogant, call me obstinate or even bombastic. I know I sleep well with those views.

Ciao and thanks for your opinions even if I didn't agree.

Kylie :D

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

06/10/2008 07:35:41 PM · #52

Wait, it's over already? I haven't even written my great reply! Who the hell won?

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

06/10/2008 07:49:00 PM · #53

Originally posted by overclover:

If my daughter came home at 14 wanting to date a 20yo I'd flip out.

What if he was 18, or if she was 17 and he was 22? Bottom line: if a girl is physically mature, then she can appear sexy even if she's not mentally (or legally) mature. You may be rightfully creeped out if Old Uncle Bob ogles your daughter or makes an inappropriate comment, yet you'd probably dismiss a comment like, "Boy she's gonna be a heartbreaker," without a second thought. Just because you think someone is attractive does not automatically make you a pervert (though the people you're referring to may be). Imagine telling you at 70 that you're too old to think an 18 year old surfer is sexy. Riiiiight.

06/10/2008 08:08:59 PM · #54

Funny you use the analogy of an 18yo surfer. My son is 21 we both surf he and I ... I can assure you I do NOT find 18yÃ³ anythings sexy ewwwwww nor will I at 70. The mind and the emotional maturity of a real man, not to mention the extra body development that doesn't have them looking like they just jumped out of their pimples. Is far sexier to me than any ewwwy ewwwy ewwwy young man could be. No I do not find myself attracted to young men. Saying they are a good looking young man or boy is far different to saying sexy and having sexual thoughts about them ewwwww!!! I prolly won't live to 70 anyways but I can assure you I'd never be attracted to an 18yo surfer. Or any teen or even 20 something what a repulsive thought!

06/10/2008 08:16:47 PM · #55

I took the time to think it up, I am going to post it, even if overclover is finished...

Originally posted by overclover:

13, 14, 15 and 16

These ages have historically been perfectly acceptable courting ages for men into their 40s, then again child used to be sold like livestock, so not exactly a solid argument. However it is a fact that men are attracted to these ages.

One thing I find interesting is how late in the game humans get into the whole sex thing compared with other animals. Take cats for example. A female cats first heat is at around 5 months. How taking into account a cats average lifespan of 12 years, compared to the average human lifespan of 90 years, that would mean a female cat goes into heat when they are the human equivalent of 3.12 years!

That is just some fun math, I'm not trying to relate humans to cats, humans cannot fend for themselves at that age for example.

My point is that it is normal for men of all ages to become attracted to girls when they begin to develop, at whatever age that is.

Originally posted by overclover:

although I do understand bodies are more developed at 16 they're still emotionally and mentally underdeveloped. That's a fact.

Agreed, as I said I think females are pretty goofed up until at least 30. Then again I don't think they should be allowed to drive before the age of 50 soooooo...

Originally posted by overclover:

so I find these ages and obviously everything younger to me unacceptable. Teens closer to their own ages finding the girls or boys attractive would be normal.

You still haven't explained why because the parents or you disagree with it, that it is automatically wrong for someone to be attracted to someone else in a certain age gap is met however abnormal and wrong if the age gap is greater.

Originally posted by overclover:

If my daughter came home at 14 wanting to date a 20yo I'd flip out.

I wouldn't flip out but I would be sure to know exactly what the hell his intentions were and probably restrict any "dates" to my living room until she was older. Flipping out serves no point, they will just fool around away from the house then and I've lost all the cards at that point, daughter comes home crying, 9 months later has a baby and everything is all screwed up.

I believe it is best when things are handled calmly and in the open.

Originally posted by overclover:

If my daughter posted pictures of herself or let someone else take them that were provocative I'd flip out.

I would be more concerned over her not knowing the possible future impact of such actions and making her aware of those. Flipping out runs the real risk of making her ashamed of herself or less receptive of future advice. Kids go stupid things, its a parents job to prevent those mistakes when possible and to correct them if possible after the fact, and god forbid handle the aftermath when something cannot be undone.

Originally posted by overclover:

The fact that grown men old enough to be their fathers or grandfathers find them sexually attractive is disturbing or am I stupid?

I wouldn't say stupid. However I don't find that as disturbing as I do a potential threat. Adults have more cunning so it is easier for them to misuse a child's trust. However a potential threat does not make every man who has a normal sex drive an automatic pervert or dirty old man.

Originally posted by overclover:

The fact that there are such images taken by adults and teens themselves present on the net is wrong plain and simple.

I agree and do find fault with adults who take pictures which may come back to harm the child later on, invade their privacy, etc. As for kids taking pictures of themselves, kids are kids. That doesn't mean a parent shouldn't stop such actions, but it isn't because it is sick or unnatural but rather because it is an action like sex, one which cannot be undone and can have very lasting effects.

Originally posted by overclover:

Let me ask you a question. Say you had a daughter who was still going through puberty and you saw your old uncle bob for arguments sake ogling her or making a comment like sexy, would that be ok?

I would tell him I cannot control what he looks at but if he ever laid a finger on her I would break both his legs before ripping his nuts off, but I would be sure it was said in private. Since a child can misinterpret such a argument as being over the top and rebel against the parents wishes. I would also make damned sure the girl was not leading something on thinking it was good clean fun.

06/10/2008 08:59:59 PM · #56

Where do you draw the line? So a kid shows signs of developing under 10 and that's a normal reaction? I certainly hope not. It's wrong on so many levels. Should a child who has not even finished learning to spell least of all form educated opinions on their own sexuality, body and the world. Be subjected to the sexual thoughts of older men or in some cases even act's because their bodies say well they look sexy therefore I can think they are?

Are you suggesting that any CHILD with a normal healthy upbringing would provoke or be sexually attracted to a man old enough to be her father or grandfather? Surely not!

I fail to see your logic you draw the line at a body that appears to be somewhat developed? And don't forget with your logic and alikining humans to say the animal world then it's quite ok for parents or sibling to be attracted to their offspring or family? How do you explain, that it's truly unatural for a father to think of his own child as sexy? Please tell me you don't disagree there. So if a father shouldn't find his own developing child "sexy" why should a man old enough to be her father? It's quite a different thing to say what an attractive girl/boy he or she is, than saying sexy or I want you to a teen. when you're almost 3 times their age.

I really am done with this now. I find this whole argument ludicrous and yes I am pig headed no man should find any CHILD he's old enough to be the father of sexy or have sexual thoughts about them that's my opinion and it won't change

So really from this post on the rants all yours!

06/10/2008 10:20:25 PM · #57

Shrugs... well I might as well finish also unless anyone wishes to join in, come on everyone this is great fun, bring the kids, we are having a cookout with ghost stories and everything, anyway...

Originally posted by overclover:

Where do you draw the line?

Depends on which line you are referring to. The line where men should suddenly lose their natural sexual desires because they had a birthday, or the line where a girl, or boy is mature enough to have sex? I keep talking about the former but you seem to keep talking about that latter.

Like I said, I think the line for the former is when a young girl begins to develop into a woman.

As for sex, I honestly think it varies and should depend on a case by case basis, a good reason for parents to be involved in their teens lives. Ideally, and I am serious, I think the average should be at least 20, maybe 30. Then again I think too many families start WAY too early before either parent has had time to nurture their relationship and build a solid foundation. It was different when a kid would be expected at 15 to go work on the farm or in the coal mines with dad. Now kids need a hellalot more resources at 18 but parents ages aren't increasing to match.

Originally posted by overclover:

So a kid shows signs of developing under 10 and that's a normal reaction? I certainly hope not.

Again it depends on what you mean. It is not normal for a 10yo to begin to develop into an adult, I said that when I mentioned the bovine steroids.

Technically because that isn't normal, it is not normal for a man to be attracted to a 10yo. However if a 10yo is abnormally developing into an adult, a males adult mind is going to pick up on those signs and the feelings towards that person will change. This is not in as abnormal as it is unfortunate.

Originally posted by overclover:

It's wrong on so many levels. Should a child who has not even finished learning to spell least of all form educated opinions on their own sexuality, body and the world. Be subjected to the sexual thoughts of older men or in some cases even act's because their bodies say well they look sexy therefore I can think they are?

They will be subjected to the sexual "thoughts" of older men regardless. They will probably be subjected to many more thoughts. I know people who hate kids, including yours and go around thinking that all day. The point is there is a difference between a thought and an action imo. Hormones don't exactly follow a thought process, men don't look at someone and say hmm, should that woman be sexy to me, hmm, 20ish, nice clothing, hair looks clean, looks like she likes sports, ok I'll find her attractive. No, men go, OMG HOT CHICK AT FOUR O'CLOCK DAYUM SHE IS FINE. Then if they are looking for a long term relationship will think about those other things, or if a one night stand they will think of a pick up line.

So if someone has the physical and chemical attributes of an adult it is logical an adult will respond to that. That doesn't excuse acting on it, but people cannot typically turn off their brains.

I could say to you, see things my way for 10 minutes, then you are welcome to change back. However you won't be able to see things my way because people can't just change their minds like that.

Originally posted by overclover:

Are you suggesting that any CHILD with a normal healthy upbringing would provoke or be sexually attracted to a man old enough to be her father or grandfather? Surely not!

I do not recall saying anything like this. You asked about a 20yo was dating a 14yo and you mentioned uncle bob but didn't mention any ages.

You do not define the age of "child", now you could mean 13-16 from before, or 10yo from above.

Women from what I understand see men differently than men see women. Women are much more interested in a future and an emotional aspects of a relationship than a man is.

However you say child, not women. It is not normal for any 10yo to be attracted to anybody, including other 10yos. If they are developing early maybe in their own age bracket. However this debate I believe initially was about teens, no? There are a lot of factors for teen girls besides age, money, job, if they are nice to them, if they look decent (some guys age very slowly).

However when I mentioned a teen girl provoking things I meant from a stand point of a game. Girls have a great deal of power over men through their bodies. Once they begin to develop and notice guys are more willing to treat them to things or give them a ride home, they will begin to exploit that, with no intention of it ever going further than a flirt. However it is still enough to arouse the man in question, which is why I said it is important for parents to be aware of this and to correct this behavior if possible before they flirt too much.

Originally posted by overclover:

I fail to see your logic you draw the line at a body that appears to be somewhat developed? And don't forget with your logic and alikining humans to say the animal world then it's quite ok for parents or sibling to be attracted to their offspring or family?

Yes that is where I draw the line for when it is acceptable for males of any age to find a female attractive.

As for the animal kingdom, most species stay far away from their offspring and siblings. It is bad genetically for the same family to interbreed and can greatly increase the risk of generic mutation. So mother nature, or God to your preference put a little stop there to make such acts off-limits in most cases. There are always exceptions to the rule but it is the rule regardless.

So in short, no, it isn't normal for family to be attracted to family.

Originally posted by overclover:

How do you explain, that it's truly unatural for a father to think of his own child as sexy? Please tell me you don't disagree there.

Don't disagree at all with this point.

Originally posted by overclover:

So if a father shouldn't find his own developing child "sexy" why should a man old enough to be her father?

Because such men do not; 1) have a preexisting family relationship and bond with the female and 2) because such men do not share genetically the same pheromones and facial features as the female.

Originally posted by overclover:

It's quite a different thing to say what an attractive girl/boy he or she is, than saying sexy or I want you to a teen. when you're almost 3 times their age.

Why is it a different thing to say? What changes or should change in your opinion in a man to stop them from being attractive to females more than a few years younger than them?

This is in fact illogical. The purpose of sexual attraction is to encourage offspring. Before bovine hormones the ideal fertile range for a female was 14-16. Their bodies having developed enough to support child birth and to ween the child properly. A female of this age has the best change of giving birth to healthy offspring since free radicals tend to cause minor mutations in the eggs over time. Men are resistant to this since they always produce new sperm, however a female is born with their full supply of eggs.

Therefore the most attractive age for a female should be 14-16 to a man. However with bovine steroids, this age has dropped however so has the sexual cues given off, so men naturally will find them attractive earlier, even before they are physically able to support a child. This is a problem and if it had happened to any other animal species they would be in serious trouble however as humans we can see the problem and adapt our actions, however we cannot adapt our thoughts and feelings. Sucks for the guys, but such is life.

Originally posted by overclover:

I really am done with this now. I find this whole argument ludicrous and yes I am pig headed no man should find any CHILD he's old enough to be the father of sexy or have sexual thoughts about them that's my opinion and it won't change

I am sorry you find this ludicrous, and yes you are pig headed :P but I have a lot of pig headed friends so I cannot discredit you for that.

You are welcome to your opinion and I never asked you to change, I probably won't change my opinion either, and we will both go on believing we are each perfectly right.

The problem with making your mind up about something is it chooses a fixed path to follow however any path can contain road-blocks and pot-holes and unless you are willing to stop and go around them, you will find yourself out of luck.

Originally posted by overclover:

So really from this post on the rants all yours!

Thanks, I always wanted my own rant.

Changes the topic to Nikon vs Canon. Is it true that Canon users are more likely to murder people? Lets discuss!

06/10/2008 10:34:37 PM · #58

Originally posted by togtog:

Originally posted by overclover:
If my daughter came home at 14 wanting to date a 20yo I'd flip out.

I wouldn't flip out but I would be sure to know exactly what the hell his intentions were and probably restrict any "dates" to my living room until she was older. Flipping out serves no point, they will just fool around away from the house then and I've lost all the cards at that point, daughter comes home crying, 9 months later has a baby and everything is all screwed up.

I believe it is best when things are handled calmly and in the open.

Come on I call bull on that. If some dude 20yrs wanted to date my 14 year old daughter (Don't have kids yet but want them) I would tell him if I ever saw him or heard he was around my daughter he risked getting seriously killed.

06/10/2008 10:47:12 PM · #59

Grrrr at myself for posting again this is absolutely my final word. I'm quite sure no-one here can honestly say pedophilia is alright. I'm quite sure no-one here would want an older man taking advantage of their hormone ridden teens. I have always had the opinion be not ashamed to say that which you are not ashamed to think. So yes I will always think men saying sexy or I want you to a teen decades younger than themselves a shameful thing to think. And even if they do think it. I think they should be ashamed. I think a man that takes advantage of a teen in a sexual way even in his mind should be ashamed. Yes, Yes, I absolutely do. Thinking something you shouldn't is shameful acting on it either verbally or physically even more so.

Besides all this typing has been done with a wrist I should have been resting.

So goad me all you like I truly am done I'm tired and I still think the exact same way!

Please note: I didn't ask you a single extra question!

06/10/2008 10:47:51 PM · #60

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by togtog:

Originally posted by overclover:
If my daughter came home at 14 wanting to date a 20yo I'd flip out.

I wouldn't flip out but I would be sure to know exactly what the hell his intentions were and probably restrict any "dates" to my living room until she was older. Flipping out serves no point, they will just fool around away from the house then and I've lost all the cards at that point, daughter comes home crying, 9 months later has a baby and everything is all screwed up.

I believe it is best when things are handled calmly and in the open.

Come on I call bull on that. If some dude 20yrs wanted to date my 14 year old daughter (Don't have kids yet but want them) I would tell him if I ever saw him or heard he was around my daughter he risked getting seriously killed.

YAY! Someone else has come to play!

Yeah yeah it might be, I know parents, especially fathers, tend to take the shotgun approach to everything involving their daughters. I would probably be the same way.

However, I am not a father and can still think rationally, I hope. And I don't find nearly as much problem with that as the thought of the same age boy (hormones are RAGING at that age) being with her behind the school or such. However yes I may run him off, I never said I wouldn't actually. I said I would make damned sure of his intentions and that I am keeping an eye on both.

06/10/2008 10:53:21 PM · #61

Originally posted by overclover:

No fair! You must ask at least one question, it's in the rules!!!

However you give me a lot to address, maybe you will read it, even if you do not reply...

Pedophilia is defined as; psychosexual disorder in which there is a preference for sexual activity with prepubertal children. I.e. before the children begin to show signs of development, that is what puberty is.

So to answer your question, yes, pedophilia is wrong and unnatural.

But I will leave this reply at that. Thank you for the discussion overclover.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

06/10/2008 10:53:38 PM · #62

My Dad had my sisters very late in life, they are 14 and 16. I tell you as a matter of fact not only would they think that was totally creepy but he risked getting seriously killed and to my mind that is rational thinking. Regardless of intentions the act it self is against the law plain and simple, it is statutory rape here in Arizona and I am sure other parts of the US.

Message edited by author 2008-06-10 22:54:12.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

06/10/2008 10:55:09 PM · #63

Originally posted by overclover:

OMG this is repulsive why does the age of the man matter??? when a girl is a very young teen?

One could argue that repulsive actions should be considered such regardless of the age of the perpetrator.

Not having had the opportunity to have seen the images in question or read the comments you allude to, I find it rather difficult to pronounce myself on the issue at hand.

Ray

06/10/2008 11:02:01 PM · #64

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Err, I think a line got jumped. Originally overclover was speaking of a 20 yo dating a 14yo, dating does not need to include sex, vs masturbation. I would not find that acceptable in the least and he would be lucky to still be alive when I got done with him.

06/10/2008 11:04:17 PM · #65

Maybe a line got crossed but I am not sure there is any other reason a 20 year old dude would want to hang out with 14 year old girl.

06/10/2008 11:11:57 PM · #66

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Maybe a line got crossed but I am not sure there is any other reason a 20 year old dude would want to hang out with 14 year old girl.

I used to know a guy who was a little, slow, he said he was a lot more comfortable around younger people because they weren't as judgmental towards that. I don't know any details though.

As for the reason that I cannot tell you but I don't believe not understanding something should be reason to fear, hate, or disallow something. Imagine if people thought that way of photography "I see no other reason to shoot pictures of traffic other than to distract the drivers, it should be illegal!".

It is not typical for a 20 and 14 yo to have the same things in common but that doesn't make it impossible to have things in common. Perhaps she has been completely unable to find a single 14-16yo who enjoys photography like she does, and maybe in return he finds that she actually enjoys life and isn't only interested in a fat wallet. Relationships have started on less things that that.

Message edited by author 2008-06-10 23:13:41.

06/11/2008 12:33:07 AM · #67

Perhaps but I broke my rose colored glasses long ago... :-P