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06/07/2008 11:10:31 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
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Either share or get some more.
Matt |
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06/10/2008 11:53:04 AM · #27 |
Just a point on what gear the pros use. I recently attended a wedding a couple of weeks ago and couldn't help but notice the equipment. It was done by a large successful and expensive studio. Price was around $3K for the photography.
Not to bash the photog, he had everything in order. He took control, knew his posing, knew where to be and when and was obviously experienced. You don't work for this studio and be a hack.
His gear however kind of blew my mind.
Canon 20D
17-40 f3.5-4 (or similar, definately not L or good prime or a 2.8)
420EX on a flash bracket.
That was it! Im sure he had a backup somewhere, but thats what he worked the whole day on.
He was a nice guy and everyone liked him. I got the feeling that he has been doing weddings for a long time and knows what works for him. I was really surprised when he asked for my card so he could rent the 70-200 2.8L.
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06/10/2008 04:07:06 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by NVPhoto:
I was really surprised when he asked for my card so he could rent the 70-200 2.8L. |
You rent out lenses? |
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06/10/2008 04:10:42 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by NVPhoto:
I was really surprised when he asked for my card so he could rent the 70-200 2.8L. |
You rent out lenses? |
He does indeed! |
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06/10/2008 10:05:34 PM · #30 |
I'm relatively new here, but just wanted to pipe in for sec...
Prof_Fate may come off as an arse, but he does know what he's talking about.
Thus, IMO, take the advice and run ... ignore the presentation and mine the jewel underneath.
If there's one thing I've learned from photography ... it's all about the light and the lens. Unless you're running full-frame sensors, a D40 with good glass will shoot better in the hands of a pro than a D200 with lesser lenses. I wish I'd known that earlier ... I'd have taken a lesser body and bought better glass.
If there's one thing I've learned from running my own (unsuccessful, non-photography) business is that it's damn hard work and you cannot afford to pass up ANY opportunity. Whether you sell DVDs or albums you're going to shoot the wedding anyways. Prof_Fate alluded to his in his hourly breakdown on albums vs shoots. The happier customer is the person you get ref's from. You have a book, people can see it; hold it; maybe see your monogram/logo on in small print on the back. DVDs get shelved even more than books do...but that's not the point.
If you're serious about your business, why would you pass up the album (or multiple albums) since you have the shots anyways? Why would you pass up on the reminders and Thank You cards and whatnot? 95% of a business is getting the customer in front of you. You need to make that customer feel special; feel valued and feel that they WANT you there. If you're just run-of-the-mill and give them good shots they'll forget about you.
It depends on what you WANT: an off-the-cuff business or a serious endeavor with the goal of growth and profits.
I don't condone the tone/attitude but he's got solid advice. IMO, he should term it differently (softer) but you should not ignore the advice (or FUTURE advice) based on tone/attitude.
Stay hungry.
Speaking of which, where's that popcorn at...?
-mox
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06/10/2008 11:05:59 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by NVPhoto:
Just a point on what gear the pros use. I recently attended a wedding a couple of weeks ago and couldn't help but notice the equipment. It was done by a large successful and expensive studio. Price was around $3K for the photography.
Not to bash the photog, he had everything in order. He took control, knew his posing, knew where to be and when and was obviously experienced. You don't work for this studio and be a hack.
His gear however kind of blew my mind.
Canon 20D
17-40 f3.5-4 (or similar, definately not L or good prime or a 2.8)
420EX on a flash bracket.
That was it! Im sure he had a backup somewhere, but thats what he worked the whole day on.
He was a nice guy and everyone liked him. I got the feeling that he has been doing weddings for a long time and knows what works for him. I was really surprised when he asked for my card so he could rent the 70-200 2.8L. |
I've seen good images taken with 'average' gear. I've found it's easier with to get the image with better gear. If you are a PJ type wedding photog then gear most certainly matters. I find it hard to believe he's still using a 20D...A friend that shoots 50+ weddings a year for a studio 'mill' type operation buys a body a year - he wears them out. His 30D is about done and he was asking about the 40D. Done? 95k images. At some point one becomes worried about reliability, or should at least consider it. Also, using new gear, updating gear, using the best lenses, etc is a selling point - educate the client. Tell them you go to school, attend seminars, belong to a PPA or other organization, have insurance, buy new gear often to stay current and to be sure it works when needed. It builds value in you and what you're doing. It gives them questions to ask other photogs (should they choose to keep looking...)
I've attended seminars and classes by the top PJ photogs - I've seen how they do it. Spry and pray is a low rent term for it, but hey, it works! My last wedding was outside and bright enough I didn't need flash for a lot of it so I got to play with drive mode - instead of 1 or 2 shots of them walking down the aisle I got 5, 10 or more! Luck plays a part - either you push the shutter at the right moment (when they're smiling and looking at the camera or eachother) or you don't. Want one chance to get it right, or 10? Fast lenses, fast bodies, clean high ISO capability. Old school is to stop every person and take a posed shot. New school isn't that way - but the client still wants 'the' image.
Message edited by author 2008-06-10 23:06:42.
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06/11/2008 10:21:40 AM · #32 |
All that is true Prof. Im not advising anyone to show up with his setup. When I shoot weddings I have a lot of choices. Look at the Canon section of my rental site and thats what I pick from. Its nice. My first wedding I shot w/ a Sigma 24-70 2.8 and my 50 1.8. Definately not the best but definately enough to get the job done.
Prof, I bet if you showed up to a wedding w/ the setup I told you this guy was using you would still get all the great shots and produce a wonderful album. I bet the difference would be in the difficulty to get it right. You know what youre doing so you probably wouldn't struggle much, but a newbie would have trouble. |
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06/11/2008 10:54:36 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by NVPhoto:
Look at the Canon section of my rental site and thats what I pick from. |
You rent out lenses? |
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06/11/2008 11:26:27 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by NVPhoto:
All that is true Prof. Im not advising anyone to show up with his setup. When I shoot weddings I have a lot of choices. Look at the Canon section of my rental site and thats what I pick from. Its nice. My first wedding I shot w/ a Sigma 24-70 2.8 and my 50 1.8. Definately not the best but definately enough to get the job done.
Prof, I bet if you showed up to a wedding w/ the setup I told you this guy was using you would still get all the great shots and produce a wonderful album. I bet the difference would be in the difficulty to get it right. You know what youre doing so you probably wouldn't struggle much, but a newbie would have trouble. |
I know a photog around here that does it old school -every shot is posed and lit with direct flash - rebel, kit lens, bracket. He does well, financially. He's not the one all the brides talk about, rave about, etc. He's not PJ at all. He basically runs from a list - "127 shots to get at a wedding". Every album looks the same, just different people in them. IMO that's not being very creative but it can make for good business. Many chain studios work this way - a pose book, a lighting diagram - no matter what sears or walmart studio you go to you get the same image, same lighting, background. They have to do it that way if you think about it. But then they don't charge top dollar either.
If you're going to shoot with one lens and do the same poses and albums over and over you're generally not going to get a premium price for your 'creativity' or artistic interpretation. From what I've seen the top photogs (buiussink, cantrell, yervant, etc - top names, top pay, top art) usually running 2 photogs - the 'name' guy and a second shooter who is really the primary shooter. Most altar returns are pretty standard stuff once you get the posing/tech (lighting) issues figured out. It's the getting ready shots and schmoozing and romantic formals that the Big Name photog shoots. Yervant doesn't shoot receptions - his 'second' shooter does that for him.
Look at what the big names show as images - the bride getting ready and romantic type couple shots. Ever seen a yervant cake cutting shot? Buissink's ring exchange shot? Cantrell's in the church family formal shot? I've seen a few formal shots done at country clubs to demonstrate alternate posing ideas but nothing of the typical type shots brides around here want done.
If you want to make a living in photography with your own business you need sales of $80k-100k minimum. How you achive that is really up to you, but just shooting $1500 weddings isn't gonna work unless you're someplace like florida where there may be enough business year round. Up here in the north there are 52 weekends a year and maybe half of them are used for weddings. Most are too cold or it's mothers day or easter weekend. 26 times $1500 isn't going to work. Add in some friday or sunday weddings and you might hit 30-35 weddings. Phila and NY and some major metro areas have more non-saturday weddings so there you might do better with bookings. Getting $3000/wedding is a number that works but in many markets that's upscale prices and you have to deliver upscale images, product and service. It takes an investment on your part to be able to get $3500/wedding - it's not so much photographer skill once you get past the basics.
The $1000 photographer:
Meet the couple at Starbucks, give them a simple black and white price list in a white envelope and a vistaprint biz card. Do a laptop presentation and show them a three ring binder of prints from walmart in clear sleeves. Try to ignore the hustle and bustle and smells of the coffee business. This photog spent his gas and time to drive back and forth to meet the people and they may not even show, or perhaps there's no table to use or your laptop needs plugged in or any of 100 other things one cannot control (screaming kid at the next table, broken AC, etc)
The $3500+ Photographer:
Meet the couple at your home in a dedicated room with spot-lit 24x36 canvas wedding prints, nice aromas in the room from potpourri or fresh flowers, with jazz playing softly in the BG. Show them several 11x14 albums, prints, save the date cards, etc. Offer them some wine. Sit a real leather sofa that smells divine while they look at leather albums that also smell wonderful. Show them a slideshow if want..on the 50" plasma or using an LCD projector and a big screen with surround sound. Give them your materials in full color in a custom made folder with your logo. Give them a gift bag to take home. There are no distractions. The photog has complete control over everything. There is no time wasted if the client is running late and you have everything at your disposal if you need to print a contract or make a copy, etc.
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06/11/2008 11:54:21 AM · #35 |
I dont' know what you are trying to explain to me, I just shared a story of a photographer who doesn't go by your standard operating procedure.
Beltrami Studio is no Sears/Walmart. They are a studio that I would strive to be like. They are at the highest end of pricing, they don't shoot off a list or all posed rigid photos and they shoot many many weddings a year which is not easy in VT.
As for the bottom part of your post about meeting clients, again I don't know what you were trying to point out to me.
Simms, yes I rent lenses. //www.rentphotostuff.com
EDIT: Simms, I do rent lenses, but right now its US only. Sorry.
Message edited by author 2008-06-11 11:55:29. |
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06/11/2008 02:33:46 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Meet the couple home in a dedicated room..., nice aromas in the room from potpourri or fresh flowers, with jazz playing softly in the BG...Offer them some wine. Sit a real leather sofa that smells divine... Show them a slideshow if want..on the 50" plasma or using an LCD projector and a big screen with surround sound. Give them your materials in full color in a custom made folder with your logo. Give them a gift bag to take home. There are no distractions. The ladies man has complete control over everything. There is no time wasted if the lady is running late and you have everything at your disposal... |
Sounds like a description for a bachelor's lair where he lures the ladies out of their pantaloons and into his bed. |
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06/12/2008 08:35:37 AM · #37 |
A mind is like an umbrella. It works best when 0pen.
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06/28/2008 01:46:54 AM · #38 |
| HI there... I'm a total newbie at business... I already said that ^^ I have a client from Canada, he paid me 3 dollars per pic I fix, which involves all what you can imagine about adjusting and correcting :) He send me 400 pictures per month, so, I'm earning: 400 pix = 1200 american dollars... Am I too cheap? Thanks, in advance :) |
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06/28/2008 05:09:33 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Quantum3:
HI there... I'm a total newbie at business... I already said that ^^ I have a client from Canada, he paid me 3 dollars per pic I fix, which involves all what you can imagine about adjusting and correcting :) He send me 400 pictures per month, so, I'm earning: 400 pix = 1200 american dollars... Am I too cheap? Thanks, in advance :) |
Quantum - you already spammed me asking if I could outsource my work to you.. wonder how many others have received a PM from you this morning? |
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06/28/2008 05:09:34 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by Quantum3:
HI there... I'm a total newbie at business... I already said that ^^ I have a client from Canada, he paid me 3 dollars per pic I fix, which involves all what you can imagine about adjusting and correcting :) He send me 400 pictures per month, so, I'm earning: 400 pix = 1200 american dollars... Am I too cheap? Thanks, in advance :) |
Quantum - you already spammed me asking if I could outsource my work to you.. wonder how many others have received a PM from you this morning? |
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06/28/2008 05:52:04 AM · #41 |
Oi Simms .... Gis A Job mate.
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06/28/2008 07:14:08 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by MAK:
Oi Simms .... Gis A Job mate. |
Gave you one.. fnarr fnarr.. |
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06/28/2008 07:22:48 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by Quantum3:
HI there... I'm a total newbie at business... I already said that ^^ I have a client from Canada, he paid me 3 dollars per pic I fix, which involves all what you can imagine about adjusting and correcting :) He send me 400 pictures per month, so, I'm earning: 400 pix = 1200 american dollars... Am I too cheap? Thanks, in advance :) |
Quantum - you already spammed me asking if I could outsource my work to you.. wonder how many others have received a PM from you this morning? |
Oooh....could I spam you too and get some of that work off ya...puh-lease!
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06/28/2008 04:20:48 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by NVPhoto:
I dont' know what you are trying to explain to me, I just shared a story of a photographer who doesn't go by your standard operating procedure.
Beltrami Studio is no Sears/Walmart. They are a studio that I would strive to be like. They are at the highest end of pricing, they don't shoot off a list or all posed rigid photos and they shoot many many weddings a year which is not easy in VT.
As for the bottom part of your post about meeting clients, again I don't know what you were trying to point out to me.
Simms, yes I rent lenses. //www.rentphotostuff.com
EDIT: Simms, I do rent lenses, but right now its US only. Sorry. |
Wow... This is weird... In Argentina, neither the 1000 $ photographer exists here... And people doesn't take into account how much professional you show you're... Bloody country, I must say... |
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06/28/2008 04:28:07 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by Quantum3:
HI there... I'm a total newbie at business... I already said that ^^ I have a client from Canada, he paid me 3 dollars per pic I fix, which involves all what you can imagine about adjusting and correcting :) He send me 400 pictures per month, so, I'm earning: 400 pix = 1200 american dollars... Am I too cheap? Thanks, in advance :) |
Quantum - you already spammed me asking if I could outsource my work to you.. wonder how many others have received a PM from you this morning? |
Sorry if I have bothered you... But what's spam? ASking for something or sending multiple messages? I just asked you a question, more important than that, I asked you for a job. You have all what you need, well... I'm not, so I'm looking to feed my self, you know... If you recieved multiple messages from me, could be some server error... I posted one message here and I sent you a private message, that's all... And I think I have browsed your gallery... Yeap, I did that...
But hey, now I'm the poor low wealth clown here where all people laughs and point at me? I need a job. So please, concidere my offer, Mister. I'm talented and skilled and I have experience doing these things :) |
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06/28/2008 04:29:17 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Quantum3:
Originally posted by NVPhoto:
I dont' know what you are trying to explain to me, I just shared a story of a photographer who doesn't go by your standard operating procedure.
Beltrami Studio is no Sears/Walmart. They are a studio that I would strive to be like. They are at the highest end of pricing, they don't shoot off a list or all posed rigid photos and they shoot many many weddings a year which is not easy in VT.
As for the bottom part of your post about meeting clients, again I don't know what you were trying to point out to me.
Simms, yes I rent lenses. //www.rentphotostuff.com
EDIT: Simms, I do rent lenses, but right now its US only. Sorry. |
Wow... This is weird... In Argentina, neither the 1000 $ photographer exists here... And people doesn't take into account how much professional you show you're... Bloody country, I must say... |
By the way, I just PM you... |
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06/28/2008 04:30:06 PM · #47 |
| Seems I clicked in any place... I wanted to say that I just PM you, Mister. |
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06/28/2008 09:02:05 PM · #48 |
"OK, my clients come to me and pay my (rather high) prices because they want pretty pictures, thats it at the basest level" Sorry to hurt your ego, Mister Ego-Man, but people pay you not because your wonderful pictures... They pay you because they have the money, and then, because they like what you do. Hope your further clients don't read what you write in the forums, or you will be in trouble ;)
By the way, I see you're pretty fast hurting people with your silly mouth, but you're rather slow when it comes to apologize... |
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06/29/2008 03:52:25 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by Quantum3:
"OK, my clients come to me and pay my (rather high) prices because they want pretty pictures, thats it at the basest level" Sorry to hurt your ego, Mister Ego-Man, but people pay you not because your wonderful pictures... They pay you because they have the money, and then, because they like what you do. Hope your further clients don't read what you write in the forums, or you will be in trouble ;)
By the way, I see you're pretty fast hurting people with your silly mouth, but you're rather slow when it comes to apologize... |
Actually very wrong.. There are other photographers out there in my price range so these people have a choice of who they go with, some of them pick me and generally they say because they really like my work, I know this because I ask them.
What am I supposed to be apologizing for?
Why should I be worried about my potential clients reading what I say in forums?? They know they are paying a rather high price, they generally realise that when
a/ they look at my prices
b/ they hand the cheque over
cant see why I would be in trouble.. In fact, since you bought it up, when I have clients overs, I generally drop into the conversation that I am not the cheapest around, but if you pay peanuts, you get Monkeys.
By the way, your Photoshop service seems rather cheap ;)
Oh, and by my definition, Spam is unsolicited email offering a product or a service.
Message edited by author 2008-06-29 04:13:45. |
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06/29/2008 02:36:07 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by Quantum3:
"OK, my clients come to me and pay my (rather high) prices because they want pretty pictures, thats it at the basest level" Sorry to hurt your ego, Mister Ego-Man, but people pay you not because your wonderful pictures... They pay you because they have the money, and then, because they like what you do. Hope your further clients don't read what you write in the forums, or you will be in trouble ;)
By the way, I see you're pretty fast hurting people with your silly mouth, but you're rather slow when it comes to apologize... |
Actually very wrong.. There are other photographers out there in my price range so these people have a choice of who they go with, some of them pick me and generally they say because they really like my work, I know this because I ask them.
What am I supposed to be apologizing for?
Why should I be worried about my potential clients reading what I say in forums?? They know they are paying a rather high price, they generally realise that when
a/ they look at my prices
b/ they hand the cheque over
cant see why I would be in trouble.. In fact, since you bought it up, when I have clients overs, I generally drop into the conversation that I am not the cheapest around, but if you pay peanuts, you get Monkeys.
By the way, your Photoshop service seems rather cheap ;)
Oh, and by my definition, Spam is unsolicited email offering a product or a service. |
Well... I've been polite with you when writting the PM I sent you, to open a conversation with you. Do you know that I'm free to write PM's? Do you know that conversations starts when somebody opens a talk? Ah, but you're not interested. Because you're The Ego King, you don't accept incoming messages... C'mon... What the hell do you think you're... uh? And saying, in a very sarcastic manner, that I'm an spammer...
You should learn how to be kind and learn about apologizes... |
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