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06/02/2008 02:34:36 PM · #176 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
make sure the descriptions are clearly worded as non-binding suggestions. |
What's clear to you may not make a bit of sense to anyone else. We could just run every topic with "N/A" for the description, but then every description wouldn't be applicable to the topic and we'd all get voted down. AAAAAH! :-0 |
Per this thread, you SHOULD just make them N/A because obviously the descriptions mean squat.
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06/02/2008 02:34:38 PM · #177 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Citadel:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Citadel:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
That's what being right will do for you. :)
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Don't confuse obstinance with correctness. |
Not mutually exclusive. I'm being obstinant BECAUSE I'm correct (in this case). |
...in your opinion. |
Which again, is correct, in this case. |
Its an opinion. Neither correct nor incorrect. Given the same set of information, we have come to different conclusions. We are trying to convince you to come to our conclusion. You are firm in your belief of your conclusion. With my earlier post I was defending your ability to have an opinion. You have somehow to taken that as a signal that I am saying you are correct. I am not. Your opinion is yours and not mine and that's all I am saying.
edit: spelling
Message edited by author 2008-06-02 14:35:45. |
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06/02/2008 02:35:45 PM · #178 |
Originally posted by kiwiness:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Then I hope the members of the SC have learned something from their mistake. |
I see no mistake made at all by the SC, I only see someone who has found himself in a alone in a corner. |
He's not alone. I see some merit in what's being said (although it's probably gone past the point by now), and I'd wager that there are other's that would agree as well but choose to remain silent and let their vote be their "voice". There are reasons for having a challenge description, and there are some that either don't read them or make a choice to skirt the edges and risk a DNMC backlash. |
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06/02/2008 02:38:19 PM · #179 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
I've only voted per the spirit of this site and description of the theme. |
Do you vote all photos which "meet the challenge" a ten? Because otherwise your "DNMC = 1" voting makes no sense; by not allowing "partial credit" for pictures which meet the challenge to some discernable degree -- e.g. by having a mask (the theme of the challenge) but not worn where you want it -- you are voting those photos by a different scale and criteria than the others.
The voting rules require you to:
ΓΆ€ΒΆ keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly
Note which of these sometimes-conflicting instructions is listed first. |
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06/02/2008 02:39:33 PM · #180 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by kiwiness:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Then I hope the members of the SC have learned something from their mistake. |
I see no mistake made at all by the SC, I only see someone who has found himself in a alone in a corner. |
He's not alone. I see some merit in what's being said (although it's probably gone past the point by now), and I'd wager that there are other's that would agree as well but choose to remain silent and let their vote be their "voice". There are reasons for having a challenge description, and there are some that either don't read them or make a choice to skirt the edges and risk a DNMC backlash. |
Lesson learned here is vote correctly. Just don't say anything about it.
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06/02/2008 02:42:09 PM · #181 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
I've only voted per the spirit of this site and description of the theme. |
Do you vote all photos which "meet the challenge" a ten? Because otherwise your "DNMC = 1" voting makes no sense; by not allowing "partial credit" for pictures which meet the challenge to some discernable degree -- e.g. by having a mask (the theme of the challenge) but not worn where you want it -- you are voting those photos by a different scale and criteria than the others.
The voting rules require you to:
ΓΆ€ΒΆ keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic.
ΓΆ€ΒΆ consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly
Note which of these sometimes-conflicting instructions is listed first. |
Step 1 -- Did that, the topic was pretty cut and dried this time.
Step 2 -- Did that as well.
The whiners just don't like it.
And no, I don't vote the ones that do pay attention to the topic a 10, that makes no sense whatsoever.
The ones that met the topic have earned the right to be assessed on the 1-10 scale. The others have not, but we cannot vote 0 on them (we can not vote on them, but then that rewards them).
So 1 = DNMC, 2-10 equals people tried to follow the theme.
I don't know why I bother at all.
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06/02/2008 02:42:17 PM · #182 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by kiwiness:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Then I hope the members of the SC have learned something from their mistake. |
I see no mistake made at all by the SC, I only see someone who has found himself in a alone in a corner. |
He's not alone. I see some merit in what's being said (although it's probably gone past the point by now), and I'd wager that there are other's that would agree as well but choose to remain silent and let their vote be their "voice". There are reasons for having a challenge description, and there are some that either don't read them or make a choice to skirt the edges and risk a DNMC backlash. |
I'd like to point out that he mentions that "painted on" masks are DNMC. The challenge description references that and indicates that they do meet the challenge. He may have changed his votes for those images but initially, he did not read the challenge description closely.
Again, there are shots in this challenge that the majority of voters will mark as DNMC. The issue we have is that there are parts of the description that HawkeyeLonewolf is interpreting verbatim whereas many of us believe that these same parts are subject to interpretation.
So in summary: HawkeyeLonewolf is saying that DNMC is black and white and that the description is gospel. The other side of this issue is saying that some leeway for interpretation should be allowed. |
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06/02/2008 02:50:53 PM · #183 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
I'd like to point out that he mentions that "painted on" masks are DNMC. The challenge description references that and indicates that they do meet the challenge. He may have changed his votes for those images but initially, he did not read the challenge description closely. ... |
Well, I guess I'd give him credit then for owning up to his error on the "painted on" masks and making adjustments. Says something about his integrity.
As for reading the challenge description...there are some that obviously haven't. :-) |
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06/02/2008 02:51:21 PM · #184 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by kiwiness:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Then I hope the members of the SC have learned something from their mistake. |
I see no mistake made at all by the SC, I only see someone who has found himself in a alone in a corner. |
He's not alone. I see some merit in what's being said (although it's probably gone past the point by now), and I'd wager that there are other's that would agree as well but choose to remain silent and let their vote be their "voice". There are reasons for having a challenge description, and there are some that either don't read them or make a choice to skirt the edges and risk a DNMC backlash. |
I'd like to point out that he mentions that "painted on" masks are DNMC. The challenge description references that and indicates that they do meet the challenge. He may have changed his votes for those images but initially, he did not read the challenge description closely.
Again, there are shots in this challenge that the majority of voters will mark as DNMC. The issue we have is that there are parts of the description that HawkeyeLonewolf is interpreting verbatim whereas many of us believe that these same parts are subject to interpretation.
So in summary: HawkeyeLonewolf is saying that DNMC is black and white and that the description is gospel. The other side of this issue is saying that some leeway for interpretation should be allowed. |
Please demonstrate where *I* said painted on masks were DNMC. (Hint, I never did, that was someone else). In fact, I pointed out to him that I saw makeup-only masks as being "painted on" and therefore met the challenge.
Like I said, people here don't read.
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06/02/2008 02:52:00 PM · #185 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Citadel:
I'd like to point out that he mentions that "painted on" masks are DNMC. The challenge description references that and indicates that they do meet the challenge. He may have changed his votes for those images but initially, he did not read the challenge description closely. ... |
Well, I guess I'd give him credit then for owning up to his error on the "painted on" masks and making adjustments. Says something about his integrity.
As for reading the challenge description...there are some that obviously haven't. :-) |
Well, my integrity is intact, but I never said anything of the sort.
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06/02/2008 02:53:06 PM · #186 |
| in my outtake i was actually wearing my mask... well holding it on cause of no strap.... now I'm curious how it would have done... |
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06/02/2008 02:54:53 PM · #187 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Citadel:
I'd like to point out that he mentions that "painted on" masks are DNMC. The challenge description references that and indicates that they do meet the challenge. He may have changed his votes for those images but initially, he did not read the challenge description closely. ... |
Well, I guess I'd give him credit then for owning up to his error on the "painted on" masks and making adjustments. Says something about his integrity.
As for reading the challenge description...there are some that obviously haven't. :-) |
Well, my integrity is intact, but I never said anything of the sort. |
"Evil vote affecting comments removed."
i.e. where you broke down how many shots of each type of DNMC. Of course those posts are all gone now... |
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06/02/2008 02:55:13 PM · #188 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Citadel:
I'd like to point out that he mentions that "painted on" masks are DNMC. The challenge description references that and indicates that they do meet the challenge. He may have changed his votes for those images but initially, he did not read the challenge description closely. ... |
Well, I guess I'd give him credit then for owning up to his error on the "painted on" masks and making adjustments. Says something about his integrity.
As for reading the challenge description...there are some that obviously haven't. :-) |
Well, my integrity is intact, but I never said anything of the sort. |
I did go back to look for it, but this thread has gotten a tad bit lenghty, AND some of the content has gone AWOL. :-P |
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06/02/2008 02:55:24 PM · #189 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by kiwiness:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Then I hope the members of the SC have learned something from their mistake. |
I see no mistake made at all by the SC, I only see someone who has found himself in a alone in a corner. |
He's not alone. I see some merit in what's being said (although it's probably gone past the point by now), and I'd wager that there are other's that would agree as well but choose to remain silent and let their vote be their "voice". There are reasons for having a challenge description, and there are some that either don't read them or make a choice to skirt the edges and risk a DNMC backlash. |
I am not saying that everything Hawk is saying is incorrect, but he is blantantly sticking to certain arguments without admitting he may be wrong. I know it is necessary to have a description for a guideline for the challenge, if not all challenges would be just plain free studies. But a description is just that, a guideline, which gives the photographer a lot of room to be creative and go out of the box if he like. The challenge description is not, however, a strict rule which should be adhered to to the "t". We don't want to see a challenge full of photos of 100 masks on a face, we want to see some creativity, after all being creative is what helps us photographers to excel. I like to be able to be creative and bend into the challenge description, and I like to see other photographers who do the same. However some people obviously don't. |
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06/02/2008 03:04:28 PM · #190 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Citadel:
I'd like to point out that he mentions that "painted on" masks are DNMC. The challenge description references that and indicates that they do meet the challenge. He may have changed his votes for those images but initially, he did not read the challenge description closely. ... |
Well, I guess I'd give him credit then for owning up to his error on the "painted on" masks and making adjustments. Says something about his integrity.
As for reading the challenge description...there are some that obviously haven't. :-) |
Well, my integrity is intact, but I never said anything of the sort. |
"Evil vote affecting comments removed."
i.e. where you broke down how many shots of each type of DNMC. Of course those posts are all gone now... |
That was jammur @ 06/02/2008 08:41:14 AM -- and his post is still there. I told HIM that the makeup counted as "painted on" and HE changed HIS votes and message accordingly.
I never said it.
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06/02/2008 03:06:05 PM · #191 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Citadel:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Citadel:
I'd like to point out that he mentions that "painted on" masks are DNMC. The challenge description references that and indicates that they do meet the challenge. He may have changed his votes for those images but initially, he did not read the challenge description closely. ... |
Well, I guess I'd give him credit then for owning up to his error on the "painted on" masks and making adjustments. Says something about his integrity.
As for reading the challenge description...there are some that obviously haven't. :-) |
Well, my integrity is intact, but I never said anything of the sort. |
"Evil vote affecting comments removed."
i.e. where you broke down how many shots of each type of DNMC. Of course those posts are all gone now... |
That was jammur @ 06/02/2008 08:41:14 AM -- and his post is still there. I told HIM that the makeup counted as "painted on" and HE changed HIS votes and message accordingly.
I never said it. |
Sorry...my mistake. (And as you know I have been following this thread). |
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06/02/2008 03:07:28 PM · #192 |
Originally posted by kiwiness:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by kiwiness:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Then I hope the members of the SC have learned something from their mistake. |
I see no mistake made at all by the SC, I only see someone who has found himself in a alone in a corner. |
He's not alone. I see some merit in what's being said (although it's probably gone past the point by now), and I'd wager that there are other's that would agree as well but choose to remain silent and let their vote be their "voice". There are reasons for having a challenge description, and there are some that either don't read them or make a choice to skirt the edges and risk a DNMC backlash. |
I am not saying that everything Hawk is saying is incorrect, but he is blantantly sticking to certain arguments without admitting he may be wrong. I know it is necessary to have a description for a guideline for the challenge, if not all challenges would be just plain free studies. But a description is just that, a guideline, which gives the photographer a lot of room to be creative and go out of the box if he like. The challenge description is not, however, a strict rule which should be adhered to to the "t". We don't want to see a challenge full of photos of 100 masks on a face, we want to see some creativity, after all being creative is what helps us photographers to excel. I like to be able to be creative and bend into the challenge description, and I like to see other photographers who do the same. However some people obviously don't. |
Even without the obvious DNMC ones, the top photos (IMO, IMO, IMO) in this challenge ARE masks on faces.
They found a way to be creative while sticking to the theme. AMAZING ain't it? That's the point of these challenges.
Otherwise want to ignore the wide latitude the challenge theme gives them (while staying in it) and then whine when they are called on it.
Not very creative is it?
And no, I'm not admitting I may be wrong, because in this case I'm not. I was simply sharing how *I* voted based on my fair and consistent application of criteria. I've been very clear that where there's leeway I allow for it and when there's not, I don't.
Message edited by author 2008-06-02 15:09:46.
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06/02/2008 03:09:03 PM · #193 |
Originally posted by kiwiness:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
[quote=kiwiness] [quote=HawkeyeLonewolf] Then I hope the members of the SC have learned something from their mistake. |
I like to be able to be creative and bend into the challenge description, and I like to see other photographers who do the same. However some people obviously don't. |
Kiwiness Gary There is no doubt you are creative. You have been one of, if not may favorite photographers on this site since I got here.
Message edited by author 2008-06-02 15:20:39. |
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06/02/2008 03:10:36 PM · #194 |
Gary ( kiwiness) - I think we're probably on fairly similar points with this. Honestly, I'm losing the energy to debate/discuss this much more. This subject has been brought up dozens of times in the last few years, yet it's hard to remain silent. :-/ |
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06/02/2008 03:15:27 PM · #195 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Gary ( kiwiness) - I think we're probably on fairly similar points with this. Honestly, I'm losing the energy to debate/discuss this much more. This subject has been brought up dozens of times in the last few years, yet it's hard to remain silent. :-/ |
I'm with you on that, I'll take being posted as a whiner more than continuing here arguing against a brick wall.
SC's I think it is time to lock this thread. |
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06/02/2008 03:17:42 PM · #196 |
Originally posted by kiwiness:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Gary ( kiwiness) - I think we're probably on fairly similar points with this. Honestly, I'm losing the energy to debate/discuss this much more. This subject has been brought up dozens of times in the last few years, yet it's hard to remain silent. :-/ |
I'm with you on that, I'll take being posted as a whiner more than continuing here arguing against a brick wall.
SC's I think it is time to lock this thread. |
Lose the argument, lock the thread.
I'm tired of going in circles with you guys anyway. Go take pictures (that meet the challenge)
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06/02/2008 03:30:40 PM · #197 |
Originally posted by littlegett:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
)
And I meant "spirit of the site" Editing error. |
Fun and learning?
So I hope you are leaving many helpful comments on all of the images, specially the DNMC's and <4 images so they can learn and have fun doing so. 6-; |
Still kinda waiting to hear if you do make helpful comments or not.
You know, to 'Keep in the Spirit of the Site'.
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06/02/2008 03:56:19 PM · #198 |
Originally posted by Voting Rules:
You should:
ΓΆ€ΒΆ keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic. |
I don't know why I bother ... :-( |
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06/02/2008 04:38:19 PM · #199 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Voting Rules:
You should:
ΓΆ€ΒΆ keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic. |
I don't know why I bother ... :-( |
Because you care and want the best for the site. Sometimes an argument can't be resolved. Unfortunately. At least my image is above a 4 now... it was depressing watching it fall below a 5 after it staying a 6.2 for awhile. I have yet to score below a 5 and I didn't feel this image deserved to be my first. |
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06/02/2008 04:40:28 PM · #200 |
Well, I for one created a mask, it was on a face and imho not only did it meet the challenge but it was both creative and well shot.
It has now crept up from its low of 4.7 to 5.1...
Votes: 62
Views: 99
Avg Vote: 5.1129
Comments: 3
Not only do I want to get back the 10 nights it took me to take this shot but am thinking in future I may as well take a snap in the Zoo (unless of course I want to improve my photographic creativeness and stop pandering to the voters). |
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