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05/28/2008 07:07:46 PM · #201 |
Originally posted by JMart:
WOW! Just when I thought this thread was dead the good Doctor brought it back to life... I'm getting some popcorn now. |
Yah, I'm sitting this one out.. for now. |
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05/28/2008 07:22:56 PM · #202 |
Originally posted by frisca:
i disagree, Dr. Achoo. The "angle" is likely what you're suggesting, but the behaviour of that teacher is unacceptable whether or not the child has any diagnoses or not. |
Ya, I don't disagree with this. It does seem unorthodox and weird. My real point is when we hear these stories we are rarely getting a complete story. Let me phrase the above story in a different way. Little Alex is a terror in class. He is disruptive and mean and has not been controllable. He has no IEP and mom doesn't seem to care about how Alex does in class and whether he is making it difficult to teach the rest of the students. Wendy, the teacher, is at wits end and has no idea what to do. Having watched the Survivor finale she thinks perhaps she can show Alex how much his actions hurt the rest of his class if she lets them express how they feel. She comes up with the unorthodox solution of having a tribal council in which each kid can "vote out" one member of the class and explain why. In her mind this may teach Alex that he needs to change his actions if he is going to be an accepted member of the society. They have the council and Alex "feels sad" that 14 of his classmates want him out. Alex goes to the nurse's office crying. Mom, her parental feelings finally aroused, gets mad. She is furious they would treat her Alex like this, plus it's now a pain in the ass to drop him off at school because he really doesn't want to go. She takes him to a doc who calls him Aspbergers because it has become the garbage can diagnosis for "I can't call him autistic, but there's definitely issues going on". Mom gets a call from Dr. Phil and starts to think she can really cash in here. The rest is history except the pending lawsuit.
Perhaps I have far too cynical a view of the Media, but I say my version of the story has just as good a chance of being true as the one being reported. Does this make Wendy, the teacher correct in her actions? No. But it does make it more understandable.
Message edited by author 2008-05-28 19:25:10.
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05/28/2008 07:47:26 PM · #203 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Does this make Wendy, the teacher correct in her actions? No. But it does make it more understandable. |
No, it doesn't make it more understandable.
A teacher ostracizing a 5 year old that way is really beyond belief and totally out of line.
So the teacher is frustrated with his behavior? Part of her job is dealing with things like that. If it's beyond her capability, it's still up to her to help him or find him help. I don't see how making him an outcast is helping anyone.
Message edited by author 2008-05-28 19:52:19.
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05/28/2008 07:48:46 PM · #204 |
| Just because something is, understandable, does not mean you agree with it or that it is correct. imo |
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05/28/2008 07:48:52 PM · #205 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I gotta say this story is likely a good example of us only hearing one side of the story. It's still quite possible the teacher was completely out of line, but the media has picked up and hyped certain features. Being "evaluated for Aspberger syndrome" and actually having it are two completely different things. The angle on the stories, as I've seen them, is clearly "Kindergarten teacher picks on handicapped student". The FOX story even goes as far as saying that the child actually has the diagnosis (you'll see this is not true as reported by the original AP story).
EDIT: I believe the original story was now UPI not AP. It also looks like he has been diagnosed...a week after the incident. Perhaps the whole voting off was a good thing so mom would get off her ass and get the kid some help. Something stinks to high heaven here. |
Regardless of the "angle" no child should be singled out and humiliated that way, disability or not.
Having a diagnosis is a good thing, but in this case, the ends in no way justify the means.
Way to blame the victim, nice move Doc. |
Huh? So you're saying Jason is blaming the child for what happened with the teacher? I didn't get that from what he wrote. |
No, but he is blaming the mother.
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05/28/2008 07:55:59 PM · #206 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
No, but he is blaming the mother. |
I'm blaming the media. The "beyond belief" may have become beyond by the way we get the story. Look at it this way, doesn't it seem slightly odd that the teacher hasn't been fired if her actions are as crazy as they are portrayed? She was reprimanded and has been moved "for now". That tips me to think there's more to the story as well.
All I'm saying is I don't know what happened. If it happened exactly like the media is printing then shame on her. I'm not holding my breath about that though...
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05/28/2008 09:06:04 PM · #207 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
No, but he is blaming the mother. |
I'm blaming the media. The "beyond belief" may have become beyond by the way we get the story. Look at it this way, doesn't it seem slightly odd that the teacher hasn't been fired if her actions are as crazy as they are portrayed? She was reprimanded and has been moved "for now". That tips me to think there's more to the story as well.
All I'm saying is I don't know what happened. If it happened exactly like the media is printing then shame on her. I'm not holding my breath about that though... |
The article I read, which was apparently a more local paper, said that the teacher confirmed/admitted what happened -- he was misbehaving, she had the classmates tell him what they didn't like about him, then had him voted out of the classroom.
I'm still figuring out which of those three steps are acceptable (and in one sense, legal -- you can't simply decide not to have a student in your class, sorry), in any form or fashion. |
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05/28/2008 09:08:16 PM · #208 |
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05/28/2008 09:16:10 PM · #209 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
No, but he is blaming the mother. |
I'm blaming the media. The "beyond belief" may have become beyond by the way we get the story. Look at it this way, doesn't it seem slightly odd that the teacher hasn't been fired if her actions are as crazy as they are portrayed? She was reprimanded and has been moved "for now". That tips me to think there's more to the story as well.
All I'm saying is I don't know what happened. If it happened exactly like the media is printing then shame on her. I'm not holding my breath about that though... |
Sounds like they're still deciding how to punish her and she has been removed from teaching duties
Originally posted by The South Florida Sun-Sentinel:
The teacher has been disciplined, however.
“Ms. Portillo has been reassigned outside of the classroom at the district offices until any further action may be determined," St. Lucie County School District said in a statement |
Even in the face of something so egregious, it's difficult to fire a teacher. Most teacher's unions are quite strong and it's likely that simply firing her might violate the agreement between the district and the union.
This seems an awful lot like placing blame on the mother, if not wholly, then at least a good share.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps the whole voting off was a good thing so mom would get off her ass and get the kid some help. |
Message edited by author 2008-05-28 21:26:04.
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05/28/2008 09:17:28 PM · #210 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
I say chop her head off. |
Nah, with a sadistic mind like that, she belongs in customer service.
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05/30/2008 02:25:54 PM · #211 |
Here's a link to the actual incident report that was filed by the local police department's "school resource officer" who was involved with the incident (it starts at the bottom of that page). It's an interesting read, and sounds to me like an unfortunate incident where both the teacher and the student were in a situation they shouldn't have been in.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I gotta say this story is likely a good example of us only hearing one side of the story. It's still quite possible the teacher was completely out of line, but the media has picked up and hyped certain features. Being "evaluated for Aspberger syndrome" and actually having it are two completely different things. The angle on the stories, as I've seen them, is clearly "Kindergarten teacher picks on handicapped student". The FOX story even goes as far as saying that the child actually has the diagnosis (you'll see this is not true as reported by the original AP story).
EDIT: I believe the original story was now UPI not AP. It also looks like he has been diagnosed...a week after the incident. Perhaps the whole voting off was a good thing so mom would get off her ass and get the kid some help. Something stinks to high heaven here. |
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05/30/2008 02:57:47 PM · #212 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
This seems an awful lot like placing blame on the mother, if not wholly, then at least a good share.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps the whole voting off was a good thing so mom would get off her ass and get the kid some help. |
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Who else should the blame fall on? Parents are responsible for their children. If the child is a constant disruption and cannot be controlled, then that blame falls on the parents for failing to handle their kid and teach him how to behave. If mom had been told by the school that her kid was a problem and she didn't do anything about it, then I think she deserves most of the blame.
 eqsite's link is interesting reading. Frankly, I don't blame the teacher for being frustrated. I went through public school with obnoxious little jerks who disrupted the class like that and couldn't be controlled - they slowed everyone down and took away from any actual learning.
If the teacher really did just ask the class if they were ready for him to return from the office or not, then I don't see her as being in the wrong. Her class probably needed a break from him at that point. Asking him to return to the office until they were ready for him sounds like an attempt to diffuse the whole situation before it got worse. The twisting of that into a "voted out of the class (implying, for good)" is typical of the kid/mother/media.
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05/30/2008 03:05:17 PM · #213 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Here's a link to the actual incident report that was filed by the local police department's "school resource officer" who was involved with the incident (it starts at the bottom of that page). It's an interesting read, and sounds to me like an unfortunate incident where both the teacher and the student were in a situation they shouldn't have been in.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I gotta say this story is likely a good example of us only hearing one side of the story. It's still quite possible the teacher was completely out of line, but the media has picked up and hyped certain features. Being "evaluated for Aspberger syndrome" and actually having it are two completely different things. The angle on the stories, as I've seen them, is clearly "Kindergarten teacher picks on handicapped student". The FOX story even goes as far as saying that the child actually has the diagnosis (you'll see this is not true as reported by the original AP story).
EDIT: I believe the original story was now UPI not AP. It also looks like he has been diagnosed...a week after the incident. Perhaps the whole voting off was a good thing so mom would get off her ass and get the kid some help. Something stinks to high heaven here. |
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It sounds like the SRO is pretty well integrated into the school and having that same person do the investigation of one of the teachers is an opportunity for bias. I'd have to take that report with a grain or five of salt.
It's likely that the boy needed more than what he could get from a regular kindergaten class and really should have been somewhere he could get what he needs. None of that excuses the teacher taking an active role in ostracizing him from the class.
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05/30/2008 03:09:32 PM · #214 |
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
This seems an awful lot like placing blame on the mother, if not wholly, then at least a good share.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Perhaps the whole voting off was a good thing so mom would get off her ass and get the kid some help. |
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Who else should the blame fall on? Parents are responsible for their children. If the child is a constant disruption and cannot be controlled, then that blame falls on the parents for failing to handle their kid and teach him how to behave. If mom had been told by the school that her kid was a problem and she didn't do anything about it, then I think she deserves most of the blame.
eqsite's link is interesting reading. Frankly, I don't blame the teacher for being frustrated. I went through public school with obnoxious little jerks who disrupted the class like that and couldn't be controlled - they slowed everyone down and took away from any actual learning.
If the teacher really did just ask the class if they were ready for him to return from the office or not, then I don't see her as being in the wrong. Her class probably needed a break from him at that point. Asking him to return to the office until they were ready for him sounds like an attempt to diffuse the whole situation before it got worse. The twisting of that into a "voted out of the class (implying, for good)" is typical of the kid/mother/media. |
If your child's teacher punched your kid in the face would it be your fault?
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05/30/2008 03:40:00 PM · #215 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
It sounds like the SRO is pretty well integrated into the school and having that same person do the investigation of one of the teachers is an opportunity for bias. I'd have to take that report with a grain or five of salt.
It's likely that the boy needed more than what he could get from a regular kindergaten class and really should have been somewhere he could get what he needs. None of that excuses the teacher taking an active role in ostracizing him from the class. |
From the tone of the report, I don't personally think the SRO sounded biased in any way, but who knows. To me, it sounds like the kid needs a special environment and shouldn't be in the classroom. The teacher, principal, and parent all share some responsibility for that. If I were that kid's parent, I certainly would have been upset about how the teacher handled it, but then again, I'd like to think that I would have had my kid in the environment where he belonged. If I was the parent of one of the other students, I would have been equally upset if the teacher hadn't removed the kid from the class. That said, I certainly don't agree with standing a kid at the front of the class and subjecting him to criticism from the rest of the students. I have to wonder if the teacher had ever suggested the kid be moved to a more one-on-one environment before this incident. |
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05/30/2008 03:41:22 PM · #216 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If your child's teacher punched your kid in the face would it be your fault? |
I doubt the SRO and state prosecutor would fail to find evidence of child abuse in that circumstance. |
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05/30/2008 03:46:40 PM · #217 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If your child's teacher punched your kid in the face would it be your fault? |
I doubt the SRO and state prosecutor would fail to find evidence of child abuse in that circumstance. |
Exactly, they'd place the blame on the teacher. Just because humiliating the disabled boy in front of his classmates doesn't meet the standards for criminal prosecution doesn't make it his mother's fault.
The teacher is responsible for ALL of the children in her class, not just the well behaved ones.
Message edited by author 2008-05-30 15:48:16. |
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05/30/2008 03:51:00 PM · #218 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If your child's teacher punched your kid in the face would it be your fault? |
I doubt the SRO and state prosecutor would fail to find evidence of child abuse in that circumstance. |
Exactly, they'd place the blame on the teacher. Just because humiliating the disabled boy in front of his classmates doesn't meet the standards for criminal prosecution doesn't make it his mother's fault.
The teacher is responsible for ALL of the children in her class, not just the well behaved ones. |
I agree with your last statement (actually, I agree with everything you've said here). But I'm not sure I agree entirely with your point. The teacher is absolutely to blame. But so are the parents. If I knew that my child needed special attention and was disruptive without it, and I left him in a situation where someone could punish him unjustly for that, how am I not to blame?
ETA: My point is that blame is not a singular item. There is plenty to go around in this case. (And in no way am I suggesting this has anything to do with the OP).
Message edited by author 2008-05-30 15:52:10. |
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05/30/2008 04:14:11 PM · #219 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If your child's teacher punched your kid in the face would it be your fault? |
I doubt the SRO and state prosecutor would fail to find evidence of child abuse in that circumstance. |
Exactly, they'd place the blame on the teacher. Just because humiliating the disabled boy in front of his classmates doesn't meet the standards for criminal prosecution doesn't make it his mother's fault.
The teacher is responsible for ALL of the children in her class, not just the well behaved ones. |
Why is it that cases like this garner the catch word "disabled?" Because he's "disabled" it's a special case? If he were "regular" it would be less wrong?
Why not just say that she humiliated (debatable) a "disruptive" boy - which seems to me far more the case. Humiliating him is a far kinder approach than punching him in the face - and more likely to get his attention. Like she said in the report, hearing what his peers have to say about his behavior might get more of a response than when it comes from adults.
So if they tell him that they find it upsetting when he's a disruption, that's humiliating? I tend to think that if he isn't embarassed by doing the actions, hearing about them isn't going to scar him. But it might get the message across that he isn't being "cute."
You are dead on when you say that the teacher is responsible for all the kids in her class. However, consider it from the standpoint of the kids who are being disrupted while trying to behave and learn - who's their champion? Shouldn't it be the teacher, who is responsible for their rights as well? They're entitled to an opinion on the matter; if the disruptive kid has been dealt with time and again and his parents won't take action to modify his behavior, and the teacher can't cope with him, and the other students are fed up with it, he should be asked to leave. When his behavior changes, then he can come back.
The alternative of course being that the other kids wait until recess then pummel him.
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05/30/2008 04:57:55 PM · #220 |
just catching up... Are we still talking about Slippy's daughter? She punched some disabled kid in the face and threw him off the island?? Well I certainly don't need to read every post to agree with this:
Originally posted by David Ey:
I say chop her head off. |
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05/30/2008 05:34:37 PM · #221 |
Ever read Lord of the Flies? That is what her approach (not Slippy's incident) reminds me of.
Even reading the report of the SRO, I honestly think the teacher could have dealt with things differently and in a more positive fashion.
Everything I read in the report indicated that the teacher was very reactive to this child. Assuming school started last Fall, this is pretty late in the year to still be having this kind of issues.
IF the teacher had asked me, when the student came back in, I would have led the entire class in a discussion about acceptable and non-acceptable behaviors. At this point, IF I still wanted the student to know what his classmates thought (and this point of the teacher is valid -- a lot of time, kids will listen to their peers instead of their teachers), she should have the children try to "sandwich" the comments. Dude, I like you because you kick good in kick ball, but it bothers me when you kick my table.
Too much for 5 and 6 year olds? I don't think so. It would have been just as easy for her to say, "Class, we are going to tell Dude what we think about him. We are going to tell him the things we like about him, and then, if you want, you can tell him something that bothers you. I will start."
That said, I still think it is a poor form of classroom management, and even if the case gets "dropped," if I were her principal, we would be having a good heart to heart about ways to deal with kids that cause a disruption. |
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05/30/2008 07:23:16 PM · #222 |
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If your child's teacher punched your kid in the face would it be your fault? |
I doubt the SRO and state prosecutor would fail to find evidence of child abuse in that circumstance. |
Exactly, they'd place the blame on the teacher. Just because humiliating the disabled boy in front of his classmates doesn't meet the standards for criminal prosecution doesn't make it his mother's fault.
The teacher is responsible for ALL of the children in her class, not just the well behaved ones. |
Why is it that cases like this garner the catch word "disabled?" Because he's "disabled" it's a special case? If he were "regular" it would be less wrong?
Why not just say that she humiliated (debatable) a "disruptive" boy - which seems to me far more the case. Humiliating him is a far kinder approach than punching him in the face - and more likely to get his attention. Like she said in the report, hearing what his peers have to say about his behavior might get more of a response than when it comes from adults.
So if they tell him that they find it upsetting when he's a disruption, that's humiliating? I tend to think that if he isn't embarassed by doing the actions, hearing about them isn't going to scar him. But it might get the message across that he isn't being "cute."
You are dead on when you say that the teacher is responsible for all the kids in her class. However, consider it from the standpoint of the kids who are being disrupted while trying to behave and learn - who's their champion? Shouldn't it be the teacher, who is responsible for their rights as well? They're entitled to an opinion on the matter; if the disruptive kid has been dealt with time and again and his parents won't take action to modify his behavior, and the teacher can't cope with him, and the other students are fed up with it, he should be asked to leave. When his behavior changes, then he can come back.
The alternative of course being that the other kids wait until recess then pummel him. |
I agree that the teacher needs to look out for the interests of the other children. However, she can't do that at the expense of one child.
Having the other kid express how they feel is one thing. Having the kids do it in such a negative way, the teacher telling him that she "hates him right now" and having the other kids take part in an activity to ostracize the boy are another thing completely.
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05/30/2008 09:25:44 PM · #223 |
| She's actually pretty lucky -- had she called on a quick enough kid, one that was bright enough to figure it out, or one rebellious enough to do the opposite of what she said, he could have actually made her plan backfire. If the first couple of kids had told him he was cool, or something like that, all of them would have. |
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06/11/2008 04:17:07 PM · #224 |
I have respect for teachers but its school, not gitmo; here is a mesage to all teachers... call the parents if you are too pissed off and feel like giving an outrageous punishment. My kindergartner and his friend came upon stuffed toilet and were staring and laughing at the toilet as they left to back to class. a teacher's aide followed them back to class, - (instead of dealing with the toilets?)The vice principal "interrogated them and then called my wife. Now my son is no perfect angel but he is not a toilet stuffer. Hes a follower or an innapropriate laugher if that is his fault.
He kept saying to me that he didn't do it. I accused him of lying an dgave a speech about taking responsibility for your actions and being a good kid... (to a five year old) I confronted him and said - if you didn't do it why did you tell them you did(confess, essentially?) the disturbing part is when he said "I just wanted them to stop."
I know he didn't stuff the toilets, he may have acted innapropriately but I lost a ton of respect for that teacher. |
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06/11/2008 04:41:39 PM · #225 |
I will say that after reading the incident report that I just can't buy that autism is the correct diagnosis for the child. Of course that's based only on the 6 or 7 pages and I'm not a developmentalist, but it just doesn't jive with some basics of the autistic spectrum (to me at least).
Anyway, an interesting read. I do feel vindicated that as I said, the story is much more complex than the original media report lets on.
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