Corporal Punishment by a teacher on my daughter

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

05/27/2008 06:58:10 PM · #151

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by JMart:
YES! I won the post the countries race!

Right, but he asked which countries in Europe, so I took a minute to edit out the non-European countries. ;-)

~Terry

Why is Ukraine & Norway in there then :) I didnt think they were EU countries. (one can almost hear the clacking of keybaords typing "European Countries" into Google)

Ignore, I was thinking of the member-states.. not the `european` as a whole.. I have been Euro-brainwashed!! arrrghh.

Message edited by author 2008-05-27 19:01:26.

JMart

Nikon D80

05/27/2008 07:02:40 PM · #152

Originally posted by togtog:

Of course everyone knows a schools only purpose is to train a child to be a properly behaved wage slave, while a parents purpose is to give their child the best possible life and best possible future.

Not sure if you're joking with this or if you've smoked one too many joints. When I hear someone use the term "wage slave" it translates to me as, "Lazy person who wishes they didn't have to work".

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/27/2008 07:35:47 PM · #153

Wow, just wow. Ok then, thank you for your reply...

I am not joking, and I am certainly not smoking a joint but thanks for what I will assume was a joke on your own part and not a failed attempt at a personal attack. :)

I've known a few teachers, five in total. They taught students grades 1 through 9 or so. All of them stated that the only purpose of school is to ensure society is supplied with enough workers to keep the country functioning. Not to be happy, independent thinking humans, not to be the best they can be, not to help others. But to work the factories and businesses rich people come to expect to function on a daily basis.

Sounds like slavery to me. Slaves CAN escape, it takes effort and time and risk, however escape does not negate slavery. People need to eat, and as long as food takes money then survival depends on work. No chains required, no whips either.

Any other drive or purpose in life is left solely as the responsibility of the parent(s) and the children themselves.

As for being lazy and not wanting to work. Is it logical or sane to want to work? We are the only species that works to serve others. To spend more time working than actually living. It seems much more sane that if you enjoy "working" you enjoy the activities and things present in that work, not the act of working itself.

But hey mate that is just how I see things, to each their own!

Originally posted by JMart:

Originally posted by togtog:
Of course everyone knows a schools only purpose is to train a child to be a properly behaved wage slave, while a parents purpose is to give their child the best possible life and best possible future.

Not sure if you're joking with this or if you've smoked one too many joints. When I hear someone use the term "wage slave" it translates to me as, "Lazy person who wishes they didn't have to work".

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

05/27/2008 07:48:44 PM · #154

Originally posted by togtog:

I've known a few teachers, five in total....All of them stated that the only purpose of school is to ensure society is supplied with enough workers to keep the country functioning. Not to be happy, independent thinking humans, not to be the best they can be, not to help others. But to work the factories and businesses rich people come to expect to function on a daily basis.

Just a casual observer here, but I'd have to call BS on that one. You've known 5 teachers and they ALL said that? hmmm - maybe it's a Florida thing. Frankly the claim does sound ridiculous and made up. If not, I feel very sad for their students and I hope you don't send your children to their schools.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/27/2008 08:08:43 PM · #155

Originally posted by togtog:

Further complicating the matter though is parents don't get to choose their public schools, nor is enrollment optional, so given this the parent should be the final word about the guidance given to their child while at school.

Umm not sure where you came up with that, but, at least here, parents can choose their child's school from any within the district. However, the choice of a school other than the one that would otherwise be designated for the child means that the parents are responsible for transportation. i.e. the school is not going to send a bus across town for your kid.

Also, enrollment is optional, education is not. Many parents choose to homeschool their children. Personally, I think it's a bad idea, but then again, I've never heard of the school here implementing military interrogation techniques as punishments.

05/27/2008 08:12:15 PM · #156

I hope you are right Art. They were from different states. Florida, Iowa, Ohio, Illinois, not sure about the fifth I think IL also. I knew them at different times, and yes I do feel sorry for their students. I had a mix of teachers myself in Florida growing up, most honestly didn't seem to care about the students or even pay attention to what was going on. My forth grade teacher was good for reading most of the time through class, often to the point where a fight could break out and she wouldn't notice or react for up to a minute. Sighs... and some people wonder why I grew up to hate education...

05/27/2008 08:20:36 PM · #157

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Also, enrollment is optional, education is not. Many parents choose to homeschool their children. Personally, I think it's a bad idea, but then again, I've never heard of the school here implementing military interrogation techniques as punishments.

Like someone said earlier, its hardly Military Style techniques. Sure, if they were waterboarding them then I could understand your excitement over the issue. But I agree, if we are to believe what Miss Slippy has said then the punishment was incredibly over the top and the teacher should be suspended or expelled from her position. I completely agree. But try to keep things in perspective.

05/27/2008 08:21:09 PM · #158

Hey Spazmo99,

I know at least in the past in Florida parents are given one choice of public school per district, sometimes the drive can be 30 minutes away and further than other schools. I don't understand their assignment system. Also as for home education in Brevard Florida it is required that the parent be a certified teacher with a college degree in educational systems or some non-sense, the same as they are trying to pass over in California that all the parents are protesting because it would mean their children would be forced into public school for 4-6 years while their parent got the proper college education.

One other fun thing they have just passed which is being protested here is a new split school time for Elementary/middle school and high school. Grades 1-8 would start at 7:30 while grades 9-12 would start at 9:30 in order to cut the number of buses required by half, and no it doesn't matter if your child doesn't use the bus. High school students then get out at 5:30 while 1-8 get out at 3:30. It is an asinine system and the county knows it and they are still trying to force it down parents throats.

icu1965

Sony DSLR-A200

Sony 75-300 mm f/4.5-5.6

05/27/2008 08:24:42 PM · #159

Originally posted by togtog:

Wow, I was a teacher in Iowa and went to college in Illinois, and it was never in our training/education to make sure we have enough workers to keep the country functioning.
Back to the OP, there are just some teachers who should not be teaching. Just like there are some doctors who should never see a patient. Unfortunately these people are around and we have to learn how to deal with them. I think that's what the original poster had in mind when he posted. He didn't ask for advice about raising his children, he needs help with how to deal with another adult human being. The sad thing, to me, is that at one time that teacher was once a child, and they were obviously not taught how to treat other people and they are now teaching a room full of other children her bad ways.

05/27/2008 08:29:53 PM · #160

icu1965 I just want to say, I wish I had more teachers like you. Thanks.

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

05/27/2008 08:35:14 PM · #161

Originally posted by icu1965:

[quote=togtog]
Back to the OP, there are just some teachers who should not be teaching. Just like there are some doctors who should never see a patient. Unfortunately these people are around and we have to learn how to deal with them. I think that's what the original poster had in mind when he posted. He didn't ask for advice about raising his children, he needs help with how to deal with another adult human being. The sad thing, to me, is that at one time that teacher was once a child, and they were obviously not taught how to treat other people and they are now teaching a room full of other children her bad ways.

I think we have established the issue here isn't how Slippy should bring up his kids, its more of a discussion on corporal punishment.. Never once have I told Slippy how he should be bringing up his kids, neither has anyone else. Even then I dont think he was looking for advice on how to proceed, in all seriousness he seems a pretty levelheaded guy, a bit insane, but not in a creepy kind of way.. well.. not REALLY creepy. No, he came on here to vent his anger about a situation and it just kinda took off from there.

icu1965

Sony DSLR-A200

Sony 75-300 mm f/4.5-5.6

05/27/2008 08:37:08 PM · #162

Originally posted by togtog:

icu1965 I just want to say, I wish I had more teachers like you. Thanks.

Thanks! I never really understood why some of the teachers, who don't really seem like they want to teach and make a difference in their students' lives, still teach. It's not like teaching is a million dollar making profession. They could probably work in retail, make the same amount of money and still make people miserable! ;)

trevytrev

Canon EOS-5D

05/27/2008 08:38:39 PM · #163

Originally posted by icu1965:

Originally posted by togtog:
icu1965 I just want to say, I wish I had more teachers like you. Thanks.

Thanks! I never really understood why some of the teachers, who don't really seem like they want to teach and make a difference in their students' lives, still teach. It's not like teaching is a million dollar making profession. They could probably work in retail, make the same amount of money and still make people miserable! ;)

Summers off!..:)

icu1965

Sony DSLR-A200

Sony 75-300 mm f/4.5-5.6

05/27/2008 08:51:39 PM · #164

Originally posted by Simms:

Never once have I told Slippy how he should be bringing up his kids, neither has anyone else. Even then I dont think he was looking for advice on how to proceed, in all seriousness he seems a pretty levelheaded guy, a bit insane, but not in a creepy kind of way.. well.. not REALLY creepy. No, he came on here to vent his anger about a situation and it just kinda took off from there.

I was referring to this post, below, about the advice, just to clear that up.

Originally posted by jhonan:

I didn't elicit your opinion on my child's upbringing, thanks anyway. This is your thread, you're the one looking for feedback on how to raise your kids, not me.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

05/27/2008 09:03:42 PM · #165

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I bolded the above because this, of course, makes all the difference in the world. A parent who spanks their child, one would hope, is not intending to cause harm.

Of course they are. The parent is seeking to inflict pain on the person being disciplined. I accept that they aren't seeking to disfigure, permanently injure, or psychologically scar that individual, but they are certainly seeking to inflict real, physical discomfort, pain enough, in fact, to act as some kind of deterrent. When that kind of action is committed with no controls and no oversight, and the state admits no discussion on the subject, and considers it the right of the parent to inflict pain on the child, I have something of a problem with that. I am glad to see that two dozen nations, including Europe's most populous countries, have a problem with that too, and are not afraid to sanction it and call it assault.

I haven't thought carefully about your grounding/kidnapping analogy, but on the surface it seems like a false argument to me.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

05/27/2008 09:14:02 PM · #166

On the rare occasion, I will spank my children. However, there is no pain involved, literally. I can simply touch the back of my daughter's legs, and you would think I have taken a cane to her back.

If I sent my child to a school that used corporal punishment (and they are rare around here), I would make sure administration knew that I was to be called before and that I would administer the punishment; not someone else.

Of course I'm one of those "bad idea" people who homeschools, so, thankfully, there are some issues I don't have to worry about at this point.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

05/27/2008 09:34:48 PM · #167

Originally posted by karmat:

Not to put too fine a point on this discussion, but I would think she didn't learn that spankings hurt by never having been spanked.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

05/27/2008 09:56:04 PM · #168

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by karmat:
On the rare occasion, I will spank my children. However, there is no pain involved, literally. I can simply touch the back of my daughter's legs, and you would think I have taken a cane to her back.

Not to put too fine a point on this discussion, but I would think she didn't learn that spankings hurt by never having been spanked.

That's the weird thing. She has never had a spanking that hurt. NEVER. (Nor has my son). It is not always the physical pain that serves as a deterrent -- at least at our house.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/27/2008 10:04:37 PM · #169

Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Also, enrollment is optional, education is not. Many parents choose to homeschool their children. Personally, I think it's a bad idea, but then again, I've never heard of the school here implementing military interrogation techniques as punishments.

Like someone said earlier, its hardly Military Style techniques. Sure, if they were waterboarding them then I could understand your excitement over the issue. But I agree, if we are to believe what Miss Slippy has said then the punishment was incredibly over the top and the teacher should be suspended or expelled from her position. I completely agree. But try to keep things in perspective.

Slippy's description of the punishment certainly sounds like a stress position used in military interrogation. The only difference being the severity and the duration.

Now the humiliation part is less clear. Is it more humiliating for a child, as a newcomer, to be ridiculed and laughed at by her entire class or a Muslim man to be dressed in women's clothes? An adult, especially one in a position of trust and authority has no business humiliating a child.

Tamron SP AF 90mm f/2.8 Di for Nikon

05/27/2008 10:06:42 PM · #170

Originally posted by Louis:

The thing is Louis, and I dont mean to sound condescending, but you dont have kids.. this is fundamental here since you dont know what it is like when all else has failed when trying to discipline your kids that you sometimes, only sometimes, have to resort to `corporal punishment`. Until you have actually `been there` then its easy for you to wax lyrical on the subject without understanding the fraustration and inner-turmoil that one deals with before dealing out this type of punishment.

Now, you may say something like "I have nephews/nieces so I do know where you are coming from", but that is not the same at all. I know it sounds like I am trying to justify the use of `physical violence` against my kids, but trust me, a slap on a child isnt like you think. It never bruises, it MAY leave a red mark for an hour or so and like Karmat said, its not the pain that hurts, its the `being smacked` by Daddy that probably has the upsetting effect.

OK, I ask you, once you have exhasuted every avenue of punishment such as removal of privilages, sent to room, sent to bed early etc etc.. and still the child is being very naughty, what would you do.. Like I said, smacking in our house is a last resort, very last resort. Thankfully it happens rarely, but when it does, it has the desired effect.

JMart

Nikon D80

05/27/2008 11:09:15 PM · #171

Actually, I was hoping you were being sarcastic

togtog. I don't mind debating about social inequities and would agree that there is a big problem with the widening gap between the haves and have-nots in the US particularly. And sure, most people would choose to live the life of someone who inherits enough to never need a job. That's not in the control of the public schools except that we could do a better job with civics education so that people become smarter about choosing public officials. ;)

For now, the best chance most people have to break out of their social class (or just do the work they wish to do) is to use the public school system to the best of their ability. This is something that is relatively recent in human history that a society will guarantee all of its citizens an opportunity to get an education. Most of us are lucky to no longer be guaranteed a specific class and occupation by virtue of our 'birthright'.

It's certainly not a level playing field in the schools yet since kids of rich people generally have a great deal more cultural capital than kids from poorer areas. That's not something we as teachers have much control over, but we work hard to level the playing field as best as we can and we are gradually improving educational equity. That is one of the fundamental purposes and goals of public schools, to even out the economic playing field so that people are not locked into a class or livlihood simply by birth.

I have never known a teacher or administrator who thinks in the way's you've characterized, in fact, most are quite the opposite; most have been caring and compassionate people that want nothing short of the best for their students (yes, their happiness, not just their ability to work well). I've also known some 'bad apples' in the teaching pool, but even those ones are not out to create "wage slaves".

By the way, where do you expect you'd be if your place in the animal kingdom didn't include modern education and economies? Well, you could be growing or killing your own food, working hard on a daily basis for your basic survival needs, unprotected from predators, disease, and lacking certain civil liberties and safety nets if you aren't the strongest in your clan. Our current system is still terribly flawed with inequities, but in your argument against the public schools what are you arguing for? Ignorance for all but those who can afford it? That could result in a very unbreakable 'wage slave' class/caste system that you're lucky (as an American I presume) to only see in history and in various other countries. So just what is it you're suggesting would work better than a public school system?

Sorry for the highjack slippy.

Originally posted by togtog:

Wow, just wow. Ok then, thank you for your reply...

I am not joking, and I am certainly not smoking a joint but thanks for what I will assume was a joke on your own part and not a failed attempt at a personal attack. :)
Originally posted by JMart:

Originally posted by togtog:
Of course everyone knows a schools only purpose is to train a child to be a properly behaved wage slave, while a parents purpose is to give their child the best possible life and best possible future.

Not sure if you're joking with this or if you've smoked one too many joints. When I hear someone use the term "wage slave" it translates to me as, "Lazy person who wishes they didn't have to work".

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

05/27/2008 11:35:42 PM · #172

Originally posted by Simms:

The thing is Louis, and I dont mean to sound condescending, but you dont have kids..

This may appear to be a convenient fact in your favour in our little discussion, but is irrelevant when you consider that two dozen first-world countries have proscribed in-home corporal punishment by parents, and called it assault.

Originally posted by Simms:

In my house when I was a kid, we had discussions, even when I was a small child. In other words, we talked. Slaps, corners, groundings, assault benign and traumatic did not happen. Conversation and discussion of how one relates to others and to members of the immediate family resolved issues; all issues. I was never assaulted when I was a child. Never.

Let me turn the question around on you and ask you what you'll do when your child reaches the age when it is illegal to strike him, but still performs in a way that raises your ire. When physical force is removed from your arsenal, will you still have conversation to resolve your problems?

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

05/28/2008 01:02:13 AM · #173

I think I am just going to take the less popular path and say, maybe we should just get rid of kids, it would solve a lot of problems, and this debate would never have existed, air pollution would be nooooo problem, and we could keep all the candy for ourselves.

However to address some things in JMart's reply. My brothers kids have had a bad time with their teachers also, so imo at least Brevard is seriously screwed up. My mother thinks it is the whole south (we are a bunch of yankees) though in all honesty she hasn't had enough exposure to the entire south to make that judgment. I do believe it is partly based the general "advancement" of things and I have even noticed that florida has a lot of places that look like they were trapped back in the 50s. The doctors also seem to be much more "backwards" in at least Florida, Arkansas, Georgia. Tennessee seemed ok though. Yes we've moved around a lot. But I am afraid I am now rambling and getting off topic, sorry!

No offense to any southerners here please!

Anyway, yeah it is hell here and it is no wonder florida is always in the news for stupid reasons.

I personally think all teachers should be given yearly psych evaluations. In my experence here, most of the teachers I've had experience with are so stuck up and full of themselves and rude to their students and to parents, and parents just seem to eat it up.

I'm sure people will treat this with mixed feelings but in 2nd grade, I had, and still do have a learning disability which makes me a very slow reader/writer. Every morning our teacher would assign us a certain amount of school work, if you were not finished by lunch time, you didn't get lunch, until everything was finished, sometimes no lunch at all.

The principle at that school called me a fat slob who would never amount to anything because I wouldn't shape up and complained to my parents about how I was being treated. He told me trouble makers, cry babies, and tattletales never get anywhere in life and that if I knew what was good for me I wouldn't tell my parents any other problems.

When it became clear that starving me wasn't fixing my learning problem, the teacher started demanding first weekly, then daily meetings with my parents after school, to discuss my gross refusal to finish my work in time. I think she was trying to harass them so they would harass me.

I finished my year and qualified to switch schools starting with 3rd grade, which was pretty ok, I had a crush on one of the girls, however given my learning disability they felt I should be placed into a smaller classroom. That teacher wasn't anything special, I remember arguing with her a lot, she would never explain things and I didn't understand the problems.

Next teacher was the previous mentioned day-dreamer who would get so soaked up in her book. The odd thing is we started in the main part of the school, then the class moved to a portable classroom on the edge of the property. Anyway before we moved, there were two boys, both named George, one was a friend he was pretty shy though, I didn't like the other one, he liked to spit on people.

One day while the teacher was reading the one George went over to the other and pushed him out of his desk, jumped on him and started punching him in the ribs. Me and a couple of other students yelled FIGHT FIGHT MS _____ FIGHT! She snapped to, and yelled AT US and demanded to know why were were all yelling in her classroom. We point to a now sobbing boy on the floor, the other standing over him.

She says, what happened, several of us tell her, and she says well, she didn't see it, so she wouldn't do anything about it and demanded both get back in their seats, then told us not to yell in her classroom again.

I remember it very vividly. Sadly I got noticed as being a tattle tale and the bad George started bullying me and I sucked at defending myself, I was terrified I might kill someone if I hit them and then I would go to hell. Thanks church... anyway, it became very severe, leading to baseball sized rocks getting thrown at my head, which was perfectly alright since the teacher never noticed anything going on.

Once I tried defending myself and I got stamped as a trouble maker, then the teacher would always watch me. If someone talked in class, I got my name on the chalk board. If someone talked in line, I got sent to the end of the line.

I tried to commit suicide at this point, the constant pressure from the teachers and the students, parents who could do nothing to help. At one point they tried keeping me out of school, they were told if I missed another day I would be put in foster care. I ended up seeing five shrinks, none of which were overly helpful, one suggested my parents needed to spank me to harden me up since I was too much of a girl. God I love this state so much, can you tell...

My parents encouraged me to stop playing nice and stand up against the students. I knocked one pretty hard, for some reason students were now scared of me, I didn't feel better. The bullying started up again. It became an on and off thing.

Next teacher was awesome, I mean seriously. This was 5th grade now. She knew about learning disabilities and that she needed to explain things a little slower and make sure I understood. My grades excelled that year. She kept everyone in line, she didn't read. If she wasn't teaching us she was working on our paper work, tests, etc. Up to this point, I hated teachers. She changed my mind.

The bullying stopped for at least half the grade but it was getting hard to fit in, I was now 14 having started a year late, and being held back two years, and attending a gradeless special class when I was 6. We got a new student I think, he was a little bad ass and started bullying one of my friends outside of class, I tried to defend him and became the new target, again... some days it is better to just keep your mouth shut.

He was a smart little bastard, never did anything in class, he knew to run up and knock the shit out of me and get out of sight before the teacher saw, sadly, even as awesome as she was, she said she could not take my word about what happened. She did try to keep a closer eye on me, but she wasn't always there. Our school had separate teachers for math, history, etc. it was usually during PE when I got the most shit. Easy to let a plastic jump rope slip and hit someone in the face.

I attempted a suicide again, only managed to take some skin off my wrists. My parents decided that enough was enough and that I would end up succeeding if something didn't change. State law in florida and arkansas stated that I could drop out at 15. I had about 4 months to go. My mother found out given my learning problems I qualified to transfer to a school with a special program, with my consent I switched to that school.

It was, odd, they were way ahead in math and such from where my previous school was, everyone seemed... nice, almost too nice, the girls, the boys, the teachers. It was like getting stuck in some fairy tale. However the teacher sucked again at explaining things and often told me to ask a fellow student to help, a couple were more than happy to help tutor me, things went slow and hard, but they were moving forward.

I did run into one bully but he was very poor at it and some threatening looks seemed to discourage him. He honestly seemed more to have a behavior problem than a true intent to cause harm.

I turned 15th however I wasn't as pressured to drop out now. Then my mothers uncle died and left her like $40,000. My parents decided it was now possible to move the hell out of this hellhole state and get a house somewhere else. As good as things were going, after all that had happened, I still hated life, I thought it sounded like a good idea.

We bought an RV and moved to Arkansas and after finding out it was actually worse if that was possible, we moved to Tennessee. My parents got jobs there, being 15, I decided to screw school. Even with my learning disabilities I was a computer wiz and I managed to convince my parents and myself I would be the next Bill Gates. Well that didn't work out so good...

We bounced around for a number of years including Georgia before ending up back in Florida, and homeless to boot, for about half a year. For easter I think it was, the four of us split a single piece of year old boxed chocolate. Life was hard but our family bond was solid and mom always tried to find something "home" for us to do.

Fast forward today, my father is retired, my mother and brother work. I am on disability and still seeing shrinks, well not recently. I am still struggling with my learning disabilities and want to get my GED at some point but it is hard. Photography is about the only thing I find any enjoyment or drive in these days.

Anyway sorry for ranting, and I'm not looking for any pity or anything. I'm sure I am inviting some abuse because of what I have said. I just had to share my experiences. I hope you all don't mind.

Mick

Canon EOS-5D

05/28/2008 01:50:18 AM · #174

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Simms:
The thing is Louis, and I dont mean to sound condescending, but you dont have kids..

This may appear to be a convenient fact in your favour in our little discussion, but is irrelevant when you consider that two dozen first-world countries have proscribed in-home corporal punishment by parents, and called it assault.

Two dozen, compared to hundreds that do not prohibit the use of corporal punishment. I guess that means your statement is irrelevant, eh? Personally, I give more weight to the opinion of someone that has first-hand experience with the issue. I think Simms is right. If you've never had children of your own, then you have no idea what raising children is like. Most new parents quickly realize what a huge responsibility they created for themselves by bringing a child into the world. Unfortunately, many of them choose not to deal with the responsibility and end up dumping it on others, such as the school system, or nannies, or relatives, or what ever. In my experience, many of the â��hands off/no spankingâ�� parent types fall into that category. They seem to start okay, but the older the children get the worse their behavior becomes. Eventually it reaches a point where the parents have absolutely no control over the child and they simply give up. Then it becomes the schoolâ��s problem or the police departmentâ��s problem.

My little sister and her husband â��raisedâ�� their son with the â��hands offâ�� style of parenting. At first, he was cute baby, then an obnoxious toddler, then a very obnoxious and unruly child. By the time he was a teenager he was doing drugs and my sister had lost all control. As a result, heâ��s been in and out of trouble all his life. The last I heard he was in rehab for severe drug and alcohol abuse. Iâ��ve seen very similar results from friends and some of my nieces and nephews too. The ones that used the â��hands offâ�� style were, for the most part, total failures as parents. The ones that were consistently firm with their kids and spanked them when they needed it did much better.

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Simms:
OK, I ask you, once you have exhasuted every avenue of punishment such as removal of privilages, sent to room, sent to bed early etc etc.. and still the child is being very naughty, what would you do..

In my house when I was a kid, we had discussions, even when I was a small child. In other words, we talked. Slaps, corners, groundings, assault benign and traumatic did not happen. Conversation and discussion of how one relates to others and to members of the immediate family resolved issues; all issues. I was never assaulted when I was a child. Never.

How wonderful for your parents that you were such a well-behaved child. Unfortunately, not all children are the same. Everyone is different. Everyone is a unique individual. In other words, just because a hands-off policy worked for your parents does not mean it will work for all parents, or even most parents.

Originally posted by Louis:

Let me turn the question around on you and ask you what you'll do when your child reaches the age when it is illegal to strike him, but still performs in a way that raises your ire. When physical force is removed from your arsenal, will you still have conversation to resolve your problems?

Long before our two children were too old to spank they had already become well-behaved young people. They had already learned discipline and had a good idea of the difference between right and wrong. They knew they would be commended and rewarded for doing something right, and punished if they did something that they knew was wrong. Now they are very well adjusted and successful adults. In fact, they are two of finest people that I have ever known, and, obviously, we are very proud of them.