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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> The Story of a Photo and a Disqualification
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 05/17/2008 05:14:30 PM · #1
Last weekend I went out to shoot for the bike challenge. I wanted to try my hand at motion panning and came up with this shot

Given I have not really tried MP before I was quite happy with this. However I realised that perhaps the idea was not the most original in the world and that given the talent of some of the photographers on this site that there would be people who had done it a lot better.

Then I noticed the shadow that was being cast and fell in love with it. When I straightened and cropped it out I was left with a really long thin image which I knew people would hate so I bulked it up with a white and black border till I got to this

Basically I knew it would not do brilliantly in the challenge (it was about 5.3 when it got DQ's but I had braced myself for a 4.5) but I hoped 1 or 2 people might like the effect as much as I did

Anyhoooooo

Got a verification request and sent the original off. Two days later I get a note saying that this was not the original.

When I looked at the file properties on my system I saw that it said 'Creation Software Adone photoshop elements'

BUT...

- I had saved the original under a different name before working on it
- All the EXIF data was in the properties file (if you overwrite a file this is not the case)
- On 'Explore' the date picture taken was 11/05/2008 11:10 (NB this is uk style date)
on Date File modified it said 11:05/2008 11:10...ie it had not been modified
- The picture was taken in the middle of half a dozen shots and all the timings for the other shots were correct with the duplicate modified date. None of these had the 'Creation Software tag'
- The shots were downloaded onto my PC about three hours after this so they could not have been modified by photoshop as that would have given a later modified time
- The file size was exactly the right size
- I downloaded the file via standard processes (Dazzle reader and abobe software) and did not open it from ps directly

In short it was an absolute mystery where this tag came from

I wrote to the SC and advised them of this in the hope that they may give me an answer, but expecting to be DQ'd (the 'No exceptions' in the rules is explicit)

Sure enough today I got a DQ notification

I have to say I was a little grumpy as I got DQ'd for two reasons

"You may use a cloning tool or small healing brush for the sole purpose of removing sensor dust or hot pixels. No other spot-editing is allowed. Also, You must retain your original, unedited file (exactly as recorded by your camera), and provide it to the Site Council along with a list of your editing steps within 48 hours of any validation request. Files that have been saved or altered with any editing or transfer software are NOT originals."

L2 wrote me a nice email but in it said that regardless of the file issue I would have been DQ'd because "the white area added as it was not considered a "border" due to the very clearly defined black border". Now I have to be honest (IMO) that is nonsense, anyone who thought that mass of white was cloning or healing rather than a border is really not looking at an image

However L2 did say that "As far as why your JPG remained tagged, perhaps you opened it with Elements direct from the card before transferring? We're at a loss as well..." which as I have pointed out in this post I didnt

let me make this absolutely clear

THE SC WERE RIGHT TO DQ MY SHOT although I vehemently disagree with one of the reasons they quoted

What I would really like to know is does anyone have any idea why/how this happened

I also wanted to say thank you to the three of the 7 commentators who left lovely messages about the image (and to the four who didn't but who explained what they thought was wrong with it) as it made be very happy that the got exactly what I had been trying to do and had liked it

Any answers?

05/17/2008 05:25:15 PM · #2
How do you save a RAW file? I can't.

Or was it a JPG?
 05/17/2008 05:29:44 PM · #3
Originally posted by rob_smith:
How do you save a RAW file? I can't.

Or was it a JPG?


It was a JPG

Message edited by author 2008-05-17 17:30:02.
 05/17/2008 05:32:37 PM · #4
Shoot for yourself, not for others. I got the feeling you were more interested about how this shot was going to be accepted here by the community rahter than taking a shot you like and going with it. Don't try to shoot what you're expecting others to like, shoot for what you want to shoot and submit. That's what truly makes an image original.

I like the first crop you made better than the second one, too much white space doesn't help that crop at all.

As for what happened, you saved the original and renamed it. I think that is the problem. What I do is transfer my pics from my card directly to my PC and then make a copy of the whole shoot and store that elsewhere. If I need the originals I know they are in their pristine state without any software doing anything to them. That assures me I have exactly the same file as was on the card.

jmo
 05/17/2008 05:36:11 PM · #5
Originally posted by rob_smith:
How do you save a RAW file? I can't.

Or was it a JPG?


Why can't you save a RAW file? What software are you using? Just copying the file is a save process, isn't it?

In adobe camera raw you have the option of saving the raw file as a raw file or as a jpeg, etc.
 05/17/2008 05:44:57 PM · #6
Jon
First off, I am sorry about the DQ - I know you really liked the image - and this does not mean you shouldn't!

Outside of the file issues, I think the image with simply a white border above and below the image would have been sufficient and got you clear on the border thing.

Regarding the image file issue, I have not seen this happen with me personally. I have opened JPEGs in Elements before and mistakenly saved them while closing without meaning to. Maybe that is what happened. No clue!

Anyway, sorry about the DQ!
 05/17/2008 06:57:27 PM · #7
Upon further reflection .... this pic is still in voting isn't it?
 05/21/2008 11:56:48 AM · #8
Originally posted by Jac:
Upon further reflection .... this pic is still in voting isn't it?

Not anymore ... :-)

The thread was temporarily hidden, but is now open again for comments.
 05/21/2008 12:20:02 PM · #9
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by rob_smith:
How do you save a RAW file? I can't.

Or was it a JPG?


Why can't you save a RAW file? What software are you using? Just copying the file is a save process, isn't it?

In adobe camera raw you have the option of saving the raw file as a raw file or as a jpeg, etc.


I didn't think I could save it again as a NEF (Nikon) file? I would just save it as a PSD in photoshop anyway, leaves all my originals intact that way.
 05/21/2008 12:30:32 PM · #10
Is there an "Auto Save" option in Elements? ie, the program will automatically save the image every 10 mins?

I always zip the file before opening to make sure I always have the un altered original
 05/21/2008 12:57:49 PM · #11
Originally posted by rob_smith:
I didn't think I could save it again as a NEF (Nikon) file? I would just save it as a PSD in photoshop anyway, leaves all my originals intact that way.

You download RAW files, and they're saved as NEF files.......saving the file as a PSD is NOT the original file.

Anytime you do anything other than go into your hard disc and save it directly, i.e. using transfer software, it damages the original file PERMANENTLY.....search the DQ threads and you'll find this multiple times.
 05/22/2008 11:50:28 AM · #12
Plenty of food for thought here but not really anything that helps answer the question of why the file 'corrupted'

1. I load all my images onto my PC in the way I desrcibed, so I cant understand why only one of them was tagged with photo creation this way

2. The Autosave issue was one I considered but then I would have envisaged that it would have changed the info on the 'date file modified'

Guess I just have to put this down as one of those things and perhaps in the future no delete my images automatically from my camera when I download them

Thank you for your thoughts and comments

Jon

Message edited by author 2008-05-22 11:50:43.
 05/22/2008 12:09:08 PM · #13
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by rob_smith:
I didn't think I could save it again as a NEF (Nikon) file? I would just save it as a PSD in photoshop anyway, leaves all my originals intact that way.

You download RAW files, and they're saved as NEF files.......saving the file as a PSD is NOT the original file.

Anytime you do anything other than go into your hard disc and save it directly, i.e. using transfer software, it damages the original file PERMANENTLY.....search the DQ threads and you'll find this multiple times.


Yeah...my workflow involves uploading the shots to my PC the "normal" way. I then do my RAW conversion and dump it to a directory specific to the challenge as a TIFF. I work on the image and then before closing PSP, I document all the steps I took. I then upload the image to DP Challenge. Once that is done? I plug my camera back into the computer and drag and drop the original file directly from the camera to the directory using no software beyond Explorer. Once its on the drive, I format the card.

I guess when you are entering challenges, it does affect your workflow. The drag and drop method, while not really efficient, is the safest way to get your original off your camera. (To my knowledge)

Message edited by author 2008-05-22 12:09:19.
 05/22/2008 12:13:19 PM · #14
Did you 'mark' or 'tag' the photo somehow while it was 'in-camera'? Or perhaps inadvertently with the viewing software?
 05/22/2008 12:50:27 PM · #15
Jon,
To be clear, the "spot editing" portion of the DQ reason was really not discussed at any length, because it was clear that the proof file was tagged by Elements 5.0 and therefore not a valid original. Had we been in possession of a valid original, the "border issue" would have been discussed at much greater length. I cannot state with any level of confidence what the consensus would have been, but I *can* tell you that my *personal* opinion is that "it's a border" and therefore not a spot editing violation.
Sorry about the DQ, it's never pleasant for us to have to disqualify.
 05/22/2008 12:53:40 PM · #16
Sorry to interpupt, but all the sudden I got very worried.

I use Lightroom to import my photos to a temporary drive. After culling and raw processing, I export all the images to JPG and DNG (RAW). At that point, I delete the original .cs3 files.

I always figured the DNG, being a RAW format, maintained the unedited image and therefore would suffice should a verification request be levied upon my entry.

Am I cruisin for a bruisin here or is a DNG conversion still acceptable?
 05/22/2008 01:02:13 PM · #17
Currently, a converted DNG is not considered an original -- you still need the true original file just as it is recorded on and copied from the card.

Remember, you don't have to copy all of your images -- just those you submit as entries.

Message edited by author 2008-05-22 13:02:48.
 05/22/2008 01:09:03 PM · #18
Originally posted by Trinch:
At that point, I delete the original .cs3 files.


There is no such file extension of which I am aware. Your RAW files from the 40D should be CRW files. Is this a typo?

R.

ETA: 20D makes "CR2"; does 40D make "CR3"?

Message edited by author 2008-05-22 13:12:03.
 05/22/2008 01:44:11 PM · #19
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Trinch:
At that point, I delete the original .cs3 files.


There is no such file extension of which I am aware. Your RAW files from the 40D should be CRW files. Is this a typo?

R.

ETA: 20D makes "CR2"; does 40D make "CR3"?


Not a typo, a brain glitch. I guess I was thinking photoshop versions. Yes, they are .CR2.

As far as DNG, can I ask why. All the original information is in the file and there is no way, that I am aware of, to change that. The format in which the original data is stored should be irrelevant. It is as much an original as a copy of the .CR2 file would be. Afterall, the only true original is on the card. All others are copies.
 05/22/2008 01:44:30 PM · #20
Originally posted by jonfrommk:
- ...I downloaded the file via standard processes (Dazzle reader and abobe software) and did not open it from ps directly ...


could this be the problem? using adobe elements to download a file could very well put in that tag.
 05/22/2008 02:02:06 PM · #21
Originally posted by Trinch:
As far as DNG, can I ask why. All the original information is in the file and there is no way, that I am aware of, to change that. The format in which the original data is stored should be irrelevant. It is as much an original as a copy of the .CR2 file would be. Afterall, the only true original is on the card. All others are copies.


What you say may be true, but they need to tread carefully here. Your camera shoots CR2 files. A DNG file is not a CR2 file. Rules specify the "original" must be exactly as it came from camera. So they cannot allow DNG unless they rewrite the rules. And rewriting the rules to allow RAW users to save-as a different type of original is a BIG step.

R.
 05/22/2008 02:11:09 PM · #22
Well........ CRAP!!!!!

I guess I now need a new Free study image. I ran home to check my recycle bin and no luck. :(

On an unrelated topic, feel free to enjoy this nice image...

05/22/2008 03:40:19 PM · #23
Originally posted by Trinch:

Am I cruisin for a bruisin here or is a DNG conversion still acceptable?

I Don't think they would accept a DNG conversion as valid

eta: Wow I'm really late answering

Message edited by author 2008-05-22 20:35:57.
 05/22/2008 03:49:12 PM · #24
Originally posted by Trinch:
As far as DNG, can I ask why. All the original information is in the file and there is no way, that I am aware of, to change that.

That you "are aware of" is the operative phrase -- without giving substantive anything away, our discussions so far with the engineer at Adobe who is in charge of the DNG project have been unable to assure us that a DNG cannot contain edited or altered data.

Having a way to tell that a DNG file is bit-for-bit identical to the original capture as digitized by the camera is of interest far beyond our little contest, but so far that is not a practical reality.

However, you don't need to worry about any of your past entries unless validation were to be requested for some other reason.
 05/22/2008 04:06:26 PM · #25
GeneralE, I understand the concerns and concede that the rules were quite clear. Fortunately, I just started using lightroom about two weeks ago so I have original .cr2 files for earlier entries. I'm just a bit bummed about losing my May Free Study image as I was quite proud of it..

On the other hand, now I can challenge myself to go out and find a better image. Nothing to be bummed about that.
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