This is Who I Am & Why...to Whom It May Concern...

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05/16/2008 05:37:08 PM · #151

Jefferson was right, but how many other motivations could be included there...greed, power, etc. We've killed and maimed in the name of religeon, but mostly religeon mixed with power and greed, IMO. I don't think anyone can honestly find reason for violence in the teachings of Jesus, Paul, Peter or James.
Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Lincoln, pick one, any one...can anybody know what is in the very bottom of anyone's heart? The best man or woman alive, now or ever, is or was just a man. That's why we examine ourselves...we SURE can't know about anyone else.

shutterpuppy

Sony Alpha a7

05/16/2008 05:38:34 PM · #152

Originally posted by farfel53:

Sorry...had to go look up "ad hominem"...as I'm not a "complete" philosopher, my views are immature. When poked, I poke back...but I'll try not to in the future. Can't spout worthless argument, you know...

So, back to your statement...it's one thing to point out that my/Christian views are incomplete, and immature, and border on depravity, it's another to explain. Those words just look to me to be a way to toss it off without actually considering. I'd be interested to know what is "incomplete", in your opinion.

To say that someone's argument is immature is not to say that they are immature. Since your belief system defines yourself, I can see where you are having trouble separating the two, but Louis was not attacking you personally, he was challenging your argument.

An immature argument is also not necessarily a bad argument (although, for what it's worth, I think yours is). Your argument is immature because it does not acknowledge the complexity of the subject - it's imposing black/white distinctions on a complex subject.

Message edited by author 2008-05-16 17:42:13.

05/16/2008 05:43:50 PM · #153

O.K., so there are better ways, and there is more understanding. What are some of the ways? What IS some of that understanding that makes a Christian world view so "incomplete and immature"? You say it exists...saying it's so doesn't make it so.

That is like people who don't believe the Bible. They've never read it, so don't understand it, can't put any two concepts from it together to form an opinion, so can't comprehend it...but just know they don't believe it.

You're not getting off so easy. Explain in simple terms that I can understand. I'm not very bright, nor all that well educated, but I do understand when people speak the truth, straight up, with no flourishes and no smoke.

EH?

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

05/16/2008 05:47:16 PM · #154

Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

it's imposing black/white distinctions on a complex subject.

And that's where I run into trouble.....the Gandhis and Mother Teresas of the world were still human, by their own recognition and humility they acknowledged and declared this to be so.

But does just their being human condemn them as sinners?

Is there no scale?

Louis

Nikon D800

05/16/2008 05:52:09 PM · #155

Originally posted by farfel53:

I would think it's pretty simple. Saying, "You're depraved because you're a human being and God made it so" is a lot less meaningful, and lot less philosophically and scientifically sound, than saying, "People cause suffering because of our origins in competitive tribal society," or, "People cause suffering when they are incapable of feeling empathy due to deformities of their brain," or, "States do horrendous things because human beings are communally predisposed to blindly follow the alpha individuals in their midst," and so forth. Simplistic explanations rooted in millennia-old traditions are the easy way out; actually examining human behaviour and scientifically investigating it, or using brain power to formulate philosophical hypotheses, is the hard (and better) way.

scalvert

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05/16/2008 05:59:41 PM · #156

Originally posted by farfel53:

We've killed and maimed in the name of religeon, but mostly religIon mixed with power and greed, IMO. I don't think anyone can honestly find reason for violence in the teachings of Jesus, Paul, Peter or James.

I don't draw a distinction between organized religion and greed/power. Whether pharoah, cult leader, mullah, medicine man or pope, IMO religion has always been an artificial construct of people for greed and power (shepherds tend to sheep, not other shepherds). Although quotes of hatred and violence attributed to Jesus have already been posted today, their validity is limited to personal acceptance and interpretation. Nobody knows what the teachings of Jesus *really* were since Paul, Matthew, Luke & Co. were not present to hear the words attributed to him years or decades later.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/16/2008 06:02:30 PM · #157

Originally posted by farfel53:

saying it's so doesn't make it so.

That is like people who don't believe the Bible. They've never read it, so don't understand it...

*Contradiction alert*

At least one of the professed atheists here was a former seminary student. Many are intimately familiar with the Bible and other texts. That you could make such a claim immediately after declaring, "saying it's so doesn't make it so" should raise an eyebrow.

Message edited by author 2008-05-16 18:07:43.

shutterpuppy

Sony Alpha a7

Canon FD 70-210mm f/4.0 MF

05/16/2008 06:04:56 PM · #158

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by farfel53:
saying it's so doesn't make it so.

That is like people who don't believe the Bible. They've never read it, so don't understand it...

*Contradiction alert*

Also, not a very good argument to make in this forum since the people you are arguing against tend to be very well versed in the Bible. Their lack of belief is not based on a lack of exposure - often just the opposite, actually.

05/16/2008 06:13:13 PM · #159

Now this I can deal with, at least in my own feeble way...so much more so than being "incomplete and immature". Thank you.

Saying "you're depraved and God made it so" is completely foreign to truth as we see it. You and I are depraved because we have free will, God DID make THAT so, and we make choices that are inconsistent with what we KNOW is right and good. REGARDLESS of the root "causes", WE make the choices.
We don't pat a murderer on the back, smooth over his "mistakes" because he wasn't treated right by his father, or because he didn't get enough vitamin "B" in his diet. We STOP him. We segregate him from society and attempt to "reform" him as best we can. But we don't just accept his actions because they have root causes beyond his control.
His ACTIONS are unacceptable and anti-scoial regardless of the cause. He may be influenced, but HE makes the CHOICE. I may know better than to break into my neighbors house and steal his money, but I may have seen my "alpha" member do it, and decide I can do it as well...BUT I MAKE the CHOICE, and regardless of the motivation, it's WRONG and anti-social...what we might call "sinful" if we were allowed to use such a word. Only an incompetent in the true sense of the word is not responsible for his/her actions and attitudes. And that is the sense of depravity that Christianity attempts to address. Sure, there is pain and suffering beyond our control, there are forces we are shaped by, but every person (whole and intelligent and rational) is responsible for their own actions. And the Christian outlook is, that EVERY person in some ways, some times, and willingly, decidedly, and purposefully fails to make right and good choices.

Immature or incomplete, you decide. That's what I believe to be "our" situation. Examine yourself to see if it's true with you as well. Maybe it's not. Like I said, Jesus told us that only the sick need a doctor.

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05/16/2008 06:23:20 PM · #160

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by farfel53:
saying it's so doesn't make it so.

That is like people who don't believe the Bible. They've never read it, so don't understand it...

*Contradiction alert*

At least one of the professed atheists here was a former seminary student. Many are intimately familiar with the Bible and other texts. That you could make such a claim immediately after declaring, "saying it's so doesn't make it so" should raise an eyebrow.

Admittedly there will be those who HAVE read it, HAVE studied it, that don't believe it. O.K., I don't really see "contradiction", but have it your way. I was merely trying to point out that many people will throw a point into an argument without really knowing any facts to back it up. Perhaps not such a good illustration. But I do know such people. They don't hold up under questioning very well. Just trying to get at the root of the objections, past the generalities being tossed.

Bye for now...gotta go...

I do hope we gain some understanding, and maybe at least a little respect for each other's point of view. I've attempted to NOT disparage or belittle but to explain and refute misunderstandings. Please do us the honor as well?

PEACE!

JulietNN

Canon EOS R7

05/16/2008 06:46:39 PM · #161

You know what Guys,

I am giving Farfel kudos here. NOt for his religous belifes, but for actually answering all the questions and comments that have been put here.

They are among the few that have studied the questions and come up with a conversational point for us to read.

You may not agree with me, but I can nto see anyone else coming forward and explaining in detail what and how and why they belive what they actaully do.

So, for me, he has been thrown to the lions (hahahah no pun intended) and come out talking about it.

Let the converesation continue..............................................

Wildcard

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05/16/2008 08:05:11 PM · #162

Originally posted by farfel53:

There are also those that havn't read it, haven't studied it and yet do believe it.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/16/2008 09:29:59 PM · #163

Originally posted by farfel53:

I do hope we gain some understanding, and maybe at least a little respect for each other's point of view. I've attempted to NOT disparage or belittle but to explain and refute misunderstandings. Please do us the honor as well?

PEACE!

You're the most reasonable person on the side of the believers for sure.

To be sure, what angers me the most is people who feel the need to get up in my grill and proselytize.

JulietNN

Canon EOS R7

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/16/2008 09:34:40 PM · #164

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by farfel53:

I do hope we gain some understanding, and maybe at least a little respect for each other's point of view. I've attempted to NOT disparage or belittle but to explain and refute misunderstandings. Please do us the honor as well?

PEACE!

You're the most reasonable person on the side of the believers for sure.

To be sure, what angers me the most is people who feel the need to get up in my grill and proselytize.

Second that motion!

posthumous

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05/16/2008 10:24:42 PM · #165

Originally posted by Wildcard:

Originally posted by farfel53:

Admittedly there will be those who HAVE read it, HAVE studied it, that don't believe it. O.K., I don't really see "contradiction", but have it your way. I was merely trying to point out that many people will throw a point into an argument without really knowing any facts to back it up. Perhaps not such a good illustration. But I do know such people. They don't hold up under questioning very well. Just trying to get at the root of the objections, past the generalities being tossed.

There are also those that havn't read it, haven't studied it and yet do believe it.

Amen. Do you know how hard it is to read the Bible? To just start at the beginning of one of the books and read through it? What most people call "reading the Bible" are just brief, guided tours where everything they read is interpreted for them.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

05/16/2008 10:49:27 PM · #166

Originally posted by farfel53:

Saying "you're depraved and God made it so" is completely foreign to truth as we see it. You and I are depraved because we have free will, God DID make THAT so, and we make choices that are inconsistent with what we KNOW is right and good.

I'm sorry, but the essential message is that human beings are innately depraved irrespective of whatever choices they make, because mankind is born into and inherits sin. That is what is offensive, and that is what is both an immature and an incomplete way of analysing the condition of human cruelty.

Analogies to murderers getting their just desserts are not quite apropos. And calls to examine oneself completely miss the mark. You need only read what I said earlier -- that everyone is capable of greater or lesser degrees of wrongdoing that cause greater or lesser degrees of suffering -- to see that acknowledging the moral duality of human beings is not a "Christian understanding".

Calling it an inherent depravity that is ultimately deserving of eternal hellfire and torture but for the grace of God is a prehistoric viewpoint, a proto-philosophy that serves humanity not at all. Who serves both society and a person suffering the consequences of his actions, however more or less disastrous they may have been for himself and others? A minister urging him to accept Jesus Christ as his personal saviour in order to gain salvation, or a psychologist trying to understand the root cause of his problems in order to help him rise above his personal condition to lead a rich and fulfilling life?

I think I know, sadly, how many would answer such a question.

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05/16/2008 10:53:30 PM · #167

Originally posted by farfel53:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

You're the most reasonable person on the side of the believers for sure.

To be sure, what angers me the most is people who feel the need to get up in my grill and proselytize.

My boss is a liberal Mennonite (Yeah, that sounds REALLY strange!) and he is such a terrific human being, and he's really quite sharp, lucid in his ability to express his beliefs, and very acommodating about my questions.

I'm learning more from him than anyone I ever spoke with who's a genuine believer.

farfel53, you seem to be a pretty good egg yourself.

I genuinely am interested in learning, as much from the aspect of what and how people derive solace from their faith, and people who LIVE their creeds and understand them are inspiring and informative.

Wildcard

Canon EOS-20D

05/16/2008 11:40:49 PM · #168

Originally posted by posthumous:

I'm pretty sure that hearing someone else read excerpts from the Bible counts as reading it yourself. Try doing that with any other book and just see how much sense the story makes and how close your version is from the original written story. About as close as a lot of christians ideas about what their God is like I'm guessing.

I'll admit that it's a difficult read, it's not well written and all that begatting that goes on is tiresome, the plot is diffcult to follow and conradictory...well it pretty much stops making sense in Genesis chapter 1. I highly reccomend that christians read it, study it and try and make sense of it, that's the surest path to atheism I know of.

05/17/2008 06:44:17 AM · #169

Originally posted by Wildcard:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Amen. Do you know how hard it is to read the Bible? To just start at the beginning of one of the books and read through it? What most people call "reading the Bible" are just brief, guided tours where everything they read is interpreted for them.

I'm pretty sure that hearing someone else read excerpts from the Bible counts as reading it yourself. Try doing that with any other book and just see how much sense the story makes and how close your version is from the original written story. About as close as a lot of christians ideas about what their God is like I'm guessing.

I'll admit that it's a difficult read, it's not well written and all that begatting that goes on is tiresome, the plot is diffcult to follow and conradictory...well it pretty much stops making sense in Genesis chapter 1. I highly reccomend that christians read it, study it and try and make sense of it, that's the surest path to atheism I know of.

Yes, it is difficult. Sometimes boring, incredible, vague, seemingly pointless. But there's GOLD in them thar hills! Some old wise sage...I think Will Rogers ; "It's not the things in the Bible that I don't understand that bother me. It's the things I DO understand that bother me." Or something to that effect.
If a Christian reads the Bible trying to see what God has to say to him personally, he can see wisdom and history and allegory and instruction and prophecy and drama and tragedy and romance and humor and mystery and "might" even hear the voice of God speak from the pages, right into his heart. Of course, if someone reads it trying to prove to himself that it's just a bunch of bunk, then that's pretty much what he'll get from it. Some of it is hard, but the vast majority of it is really pretty easy and a good read...taken in a positive spirit.
It's hard to get bogged down in the books of Kings, Ruth, or Esther, or in Proverbs, or in Psalms. Portions of the prophets are hard, but big stretches are easy and light. Daniel and Isaiah come to mind. Jeremiah is a heartbreaker. Hosea is a heartbreaker.
The New Testament is VERY easy to read. The gospels and Acts are plain narratives. Paul wrote plain wisdom and instruction. Peter and James, same. Hebrews, whoever wrote it, reconciles the Messiah with the Jewish faith and traditions, so it's a little involved
...but there's GOLD in there! Not everywhere you look, and lot's of what you find you just pass over and forget about. But if you mine it a little, and look carefully, and be patient, a seeker can find precious treasure.
Just my opinion. I'm sure some fo you will scoff. Not a problem. Don't believe? Don't read. That's easy.

05/17/2008 06:57:06 AM · #170

Originally posted by farfel53:

Is there any version that has been "updated" to a point where it's more readable to a 21st century style of writing where some of the more difficult narrative is easier to get through?

I've read bits and pieces here and there, and I have seen for myself much good thinking and spiritually inspiring stuff.

But I do have a tendency to glaze over trying to slog through some of it.

05/17/2008 07:07:23 AM · #171

New International Version is pretty clear and concise. Some like New King James, which is KJV with language generally updated.

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05/17/2008 07:22:00 AM · #172

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by farfel53:
Saying "you're depraved and God made it so" is completely foreign to truth as we see it. You and I are depraved because we have free will, God DID make THAT so, and we make choices that are inconsistent with what we KNOW is right and good.

I'm sorry, but the essential message is that human beings are innately depraved irrespective of whatever choices they make, because mankind is born into and inherits sin. That is what is offensive, and that is what is both an immature and an incomplete way of analysing the condition of human cruelty.

Analogies to murderers getting their just desserts are not quite apropos. And calls to examine oneself completely miss the mark. You need only read what I said earlier -- that everyone is capable of greater or lesser degrees of wrongdoing that cause greater or lesser degrees of suffering -- to see that acknowledging the moral duality of human beings is not a "Christian understanding".

Calling it an inherent depravity that is ultimately deserving of eternal hellfire and torture but for the grace of God is a prehistoric viewpoint, a proto-philosophy that serves humanity not at all. Who serves both society and a person suffering the consequences of his actions, however more or less disastrous they may have been for himself and others? A minister urging him to accept Jesus Christ as his personal saviour in order to gain salvation, or a psychologist trying to understand the root cause of his problems in order to help him rise above his personal condition to lead a rich and fulfilling life?

I think I know, sadly, how many would answer such a question.

Answer that yourself from personal observation, and I will as well. Many, many people will be able truthfully to answer, "I once was lost, but now am found...was blind, but now I see."
I know that doesn't satisfy your argument...but what serves society more, an educated but limited man, trying to see through his own shortcomings to help lift up another fallen man, or to come face to face with the creator of all mankind, and receive a gift that no man can give...new life, a breath of His spirit? But sadly, you won't accept that such exists, so the point is moot.

As to the universal depravity thing: hard pill to swallow, I agree. Again, answer from your own personal observation. Do you KNOW anybody who makes all the right choices, and always chooses "good" over "evil". Doubt it. The best, absolute BEST, people ever to walk the earth, will or would have answered, "I am only a man / woman, fallible, sometimes WAY short of perfection", and sometimes...sometimes...choosing wrong over right...willfully. The best, flawless circumstances, upbringing, environment, heredity, love bestowed, nurture, STILL produces a human being that is capable of outright WRONG. NO?

JulietNN

Canon EOS R7

05/17/2008 08:00:53 AM · #173

You know Nikon, I think there is. I remember reading something about it in a newspaper a few years back in England. There was controersy about it, as some people said it was a watered down version. So in other words, no thee's thou's begattings etc. I have no idea though what it was called. (well obviously the Bible, butit had more to the name than just that)

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

05/17/2008 10:08:12 AM · #174

Originally posted by farfel53:

...but what serves society more, an educated but limited man, trying to see through his own shortcomings to help lift up another fallen man, or to come face to face with the creator of all mankind, and receive a gift that no man can give...

If the question were to be rephrased more accurately, instead of already being infused with someone's core beliefs, perhaps others would come closer to an understanding of how meaningless to many people the previous statement is: "Which serves society more: a compassionate person helping another person, or adherence to one belief in the world out of thousands, all of which require the suspension of reason in order to accept their tenets?"

Originally posted by farfel53:

As to the universal depravity thing: hard pill to swallow, I agree.

Not so. It's a simple matter to reject an objectionable proposition.

Originally posted by farfel53:

The best, flawless circumstances, upbringing, environment, heredity, love bestowed, nurture, STILL produces a human being that is capable of outright WRONG. NO?

Er.. I think it's already been established that people make a variety of choices that lead to a variety of forms of suffering. So? That's not proof that people are inherently evil, any more than the choices made leading to the alleviation of suffering indicates that they are inherently divine. Because I'm an atheist, I obviously don't accept the whole evil/divine thing in the first place, but if I were still a believer, I suppose I'd have to ask myself if human beings weren't just a little more complex than such a simple reflection of good and bad.