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05/02/2008 11:20:37 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
So, again, why isn't alcohol illegal? How many die when drunks drive? |
Approximately 20,000 people per year, in the US alone.
Alcohol was illegal, and what did we get? Organized crime gangs gunning each other (and innocent bystanders) down in the streets in turf wars over "sales territory" for their illegal but still-marketable product (c.f. "The Untouchables"). Car chases, police turned into soldiers, citizenry terrified to walk in their own neighborhoods -- sounds eerily familiar to me.
The US has a greater percentage of its citizens in prison than any other "western democracy" -- mainly for drug violations, or the crimes necessary to support the illegal habit. What societal sense does it make to spend $40,00/year to keep someone in prison for smoking some pot?
FWIW, when a bunch of Silicon Valley companies compared overall employee productivity, companies which did not have a drug-testing program consistently scored higher (pun intended).
Interdiction and prohibition have never "worked" in any non-totalitarian state. They are certainly not working here now.
"People who drink alcohol tend to get violent. People who smoke pot get the munchies."
-Ellen Goodman
Bumper Sticker:
God Invented Pot, Man Invented Beer,
In Whom Do You Trust? |
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05/02/2008 11:29:08 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by SteveJ:
This is a pointless debate: it was about hemp? Now it is about Cannabis! Hemp is not a drug, the genus is differnt, the whole debate is angled at the Merryoner, not hemp.
Can't people see the difference between the two?? |
Yes, people can see the difference between hemp and MJ. Can you see that the reason Hemp is illegal is because of irrational legislation that parallels why pot is illegal? Neither are the evil substance politicians would like the public to believe they are. Both are currently illegal (in the U.S.) based on 'guilt by association' (hemp to pot and pot to stronger, more addictive drugs). The arguments against both are strained, filled with strong emotion and logical fallacies while lacking in objective facts. Neither will be legal in the US any time soon because emotion and propaganda trump reason in US political discourse. I just think is't sad how few people are willing to look behind the curtain and consider the facts about the 'war on drugs'. |
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05/04/2008 12:58:36 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Yes, people can see the difference between hemp and MJ. Can you see that the reason Hemp is illegal is because of irrational legislation that parallels why pot is illegal? Neither are the evil substance politicians would like the public to believe they are. Both are currently illegal (in the U.S.) based on 'guilt by association' (hemp to pot and pot to stronger, more addictive drugs). The arguments against both are strained, filled with strong emotion and logical fallacies while lacking in objective facts. Neither will be legal in the US any time soon because emotion and propaganda trump reason in US political discourse. I just think is't sad how few people are willing to look behind the curtain and consider the facts about the 'war on drugs'. |
I think the point some of us are making is that even if we grant the ban on hemp is irrational, who cares? Let's say there was an irrational ban on candy-striped widgets. Only a few people ever use candy-striped widgets. While it may be a bummer for those few people, why would so many people get so up in arms over something so esoteric?
And is the fact that they made lots of stuff out of hemp 200 years ago even relevant? I seem to be living a good life without hempen rope and sails... |
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05/04/2008 01:04:48 AM · #79 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
[quote=JMart]
I think the point some of us are making is that even if we grant the ban on hemp is irrational, who cares? Let's say there was an irrational ban on candy-striped widgets. Only a few people ever use candy-striped widgets. While it may be a bummer for those few people, why would so many people get so up in arms over something so esoteric?
And is the fact that they made lots of stuff out of hemp 200 years ago even relevant? I seem to be living a good life without hempen rope and sails... |
Using, instead, all those petroleum-based synthetics? :)
We really shouldn't be shutting out the possibility of alternatives. If they aren't financially viable they'll fail, but they shouldn't be dismissed without a chance.
And maybe if one of the world's biggest consumer countries is finally an open market to the product it will become viable, as a bigger market makes it worthwhile investing in developing better processing methods.
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05/04/2008 01:34:59 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think the point some of us are making is that even if we grant the ban on hemp is irrational, who cares? Let's say there was an irrational ban on candy-striped widgets. Only a few people ever use candy-striped widgets. While it may be a bummer for those few people, why would so many people get so up in arms over something so esoteric?
And is the fact that they made lots of stuff out of hemp 200 years ago even relevant? I seem to be living a good life without hempen rope and sails... |
-I don't want to sound snotty, but I think you might do well to re-read the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights to see why this country fought a war to rid itself of the monarchy and its irrational policies. In this country individual freedom is only supposed to be over-ridden by a "compelling" societal interest -- clearly not demonstrable in the case of cannabis by any rational cost/benefit analysis.
Further, if you compare the statistical lethality of cannabis to tobacco and alcohol, and then apply the Fourteenth Amendment in the same spirit as the Supreme Court did in the 2000 election, you'd soon see the Marlboro Man gracing Post Office walls, while Philip Morris attempts a desperate escape to his (tax) havens in the Grand Cayman Islands astride a Budweiser Clydesdale ... |
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05/04/2008 11:44:35 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
[quote=JMart]
And is the fact that they made lots of stuff out of hemp 200 years ago even relevant? I seem to be living a good life without hempen rope and sails... |
... and I Dear Doc has managed to survive all this time without having to seek the services you provide. That however should not be misconstrued as meaning that I think that yours is not a valuable service.
Ray |
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05/04/2008 12:02:14 PM · #82 |
what if pot were legal, and folks were allowed to grow it at home, then use the buds as they will ( illegal to sell or controlled sale ), and recycle the stalks for commercial use as fiber or what have you.
the 'criminals' involved with producing it now would be out of business ( for the most part ), there would be no 'street crime' associated with the 'drug' ( for the most part ), and life goes on without the huge expense of the war on the ' drug '.
hemp or no hemp, there is no sense in my mind in wasting the immense resources to try to stop the cultivation and use of something that is going to be cultivated and used one way or another.
for everyone busted there are five or ten more willing to step in and fill the gap. it's an endless battle.
it's no different than trying to make booze illegal. when there is a demand there is a supplier. lets stop wasting money on nonsense.
if we want to waste money on a 'drug war' at least waste it on the drugs that really crumble individual lives. crack, heroin, meth. still a waste of money as when there's a want there's a way. but such is politics.
oh yeah - and the legal deadly cigarettes we buy - the companies that make them also own the companies that package much of the food we eat among other things. IMO that's a bigger crime than cultivating my own pot plant.
Message edited by author 2008-05-04 12:10:04.
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05/04/2008 02:10:29 PM · #83 |
Well, I've never smoked a pot or used an illegal drug in my life but I can't help but agree with you Soup. There is just too much money to be made by politicians for it to ever happen here until we have the upcoming government collapse.
Message edited by author 2008-05-04 21:26:26. |
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05/04/2008 02:31:24 PM · #84 |
| Hemp for fiber, paper and nutrition. Sure, I'm for it. |
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05/04/2008 02:39:43 PM · #85 |
Why are we using corn, a product that feeds people, to make bio-fuel.
Why are we not using hemp, a weed, to produce bio-fuel?
I know that there are oils that are produced from the plant, why is it not even considered.
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05/04/2008 02:42:58 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
OK, when did I ever say I favor it being illegal? I have merely said I think the people who push it have an ulterior motive because I don't think our environment, economic, and textile woes would disappear if we suddenly started growing hemp.
I'll keep my views of MJ to myself. To assume I'm staunchly against it being legalized is to paint me without knowing me. |
But taking a step towards improving the quality of the planet, even a small one, is still better than taking no step at all. |
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05/04/2008 04:01:41 PM · #87 |
Wow - interesting thread! I'll just throw my 2 cents and personal positions into the mix in summary form:
- I do believe the demonizing of hemp was and continues to be a conspiracy by those who greatly benefitted from banning it and continue to benefit. And I am not a liberal or a general conspiracy theorist by any means.
- I believe it is insanely absurd for the US as a rational thinking society to throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.
- I believe there is zero logic and rationale for even outlawing the use of MJ as a recreational drug when we allow alcohol and tobacco. And for that matter, when the pharmaceutical companies are pushing pills that will solve ANY and ALL of our physical, emotional and psychological problems.
- I believe we are wasting an immense amount of money, resources and lives including marijuana in the "war on drugs". For every pot selling or smoking person in prison, I can find you ten or twenty drunk drivers that should be.
- I believe the pot-smokers advocating the legalization of hemp are hurting the cause even though, as pointed out, they are two different things. But again, I think they have a valid gripe as well. Frankly, I can think of dozens of things that we allow in this country that would be MUCH higher ('scuse the pun) on my priority list of things to ban for reasons of their detriment to society.
And in the interest of full disclosure, I admit that I smoke dendelions on occasion. |
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05/04/2008 04:49:21 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Wow - interesting thread! I'll just throw my 2 cents and personal positions into the mix in summary form:
- I do believe the demonizing of hemp was and continues to be a conspiracy by those who greatly benefitted from banning it and continue to benefit. And I am not a liberal or a general conspiracy theorist by any means.
- I believe it is insanely absurd for the US as a rational thinking society to throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.
- I believe there is zero logic and rationale for even outlawing the use of MJ as a recreational drug when we allow alcohol and tobacco. And for that matter, when the pharmaceutical companies are pushing pills that will solve ANY and ALL of our physical, emotional and psychological problems.
- I believe we are wasting an immense amount of money, resources and lives including marijuana in the "war on drugs". For every pot selling or smoking person in prison, I can find you ten or twenty drunk drivers that should be.
- I believe the pot-smokers advocating the legalization of hemp are hurting the cause even though, as pointed out, they are two different things. But again, I think they have a valid gripe as well. Frankly, I can think of dozens of things that we allow in this country that would be MUCH higher ('scuse the pun) on my priority list of things to ban for reasons of their detriment to society.
And in the interest of full disclosure, I admit that I smoke dendelions on occasion. |
Amen to all of that!! IMO you hit the nail right on the head. |
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05/04/2008 05:38:02 PM · #89 |
Here's a sample of the disinformation running around even on this little thread.
1) Hemp is a highly helpful crop we are merely ignoring because it's related to marijuana.
Fact: According to wikipedia, Russia was the leading producer of hemp from 1950-1980. At the height after 1950 the Ukraine produced about 97,000 hectares worth of hemp. As a comparison, Russia produced 11.2 million hectares of wheat in 2004.
2) Hemp does not contain enough THC to get high.
Fact: While this is true for industrial hemp, it can be cultivated to have high levels of THC. Quoting wiki, "In varieties grown for use as a drug, where males are removed in order to prevent fertilization, THC levels can reach as high as 24% in the unfertilized females which are given ample room to flower."
To sum up both arguments at once, I quote the Ukraine page about hemp:"The large-scale cultivation of cheaper cotton, and development of the synthetic fibres industry caused the hemp area in Ukraine, as well as all over the world, to decrease. This decline was also due to the spread of its use as a drug, especially in the southern regions of Ukraine."
Smoke that... ;) |
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05/04/2008 06:04:52 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
1) Hemp is a highly helpful crop we are merely ignoring because it's related to marijuana.
Fact: According to wikipedia, Russia was the leading producer of hemp from 1950-1980. At the height after 1950 the Ukraine produced about 97,000 hectares worth of hemp. As a comparison, Russia produced 11.2 million hectares of wheat in 2004. |
Your statement and your followup fact are mutually exclusive. (Your fact doesn't discount the previous statement.)
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
2) Hemp does not contain enough THC to get high.
Fact: While this is true for industrial hemp, it can be cultivated to have high levels of THC. |
Non-sequitur. Poppyseeds can be cultivated to make heroin or to put on bagels. If the fear is that industrial hemp will be illegally cultivated to grow marijuana-like hemp, that would be a criminal enterprise, just as making heroin is, and can be dealt with in kind.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
To sum up both arguments at once, I quote the Ukraine page about hemp:"The large-scale cultivation of cheaper cotton, and development of the synthetic fibres industry caused the hemp area in Ukraine, as well as all over the world, to decrease. This decline was also due to the spread of its use as a drug, especially in the southern regions of Ukraine." |
This still begs the question: why is the US the only industrialized western nation that proscribes hemp for industrial use? If Canada and every other western nation can get it right, what is so deficient about the US, that they feel themselves certain to get it wrong?
Message edited by author 2008-05-04 18:05:42. |
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05/04/2008 06:15:20 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by Louis:
This still begs the question: why is the US the only industrialized western nation that proscribes hemp for industrial use? If Canada and every other western nation can get it right, what is so deficient about the US, that they feel themselves certain to get it wrong? |
Because of the moral high ground that the majority of the population has taken.
Sure, hemp is a good idea in a lot of ways, bio-fuel, medicine, paper,.....but, the average person here in the USA only knows hemp in two ways.
Marijuana, or rope. Anything else is foreign and against the grain of the moral majority.
Now, since the USA is heading twords a recession, even the moral majority has to pay for higher corn prices, higher gas prices, higher everything. If hemp is a means to supplement the price increase, with the grace of the government, and checks and balances in place to only produce hemp, then I can see the moral majority easing their narrowness for even their pocket book.
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05/04/2008 07:21:08 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
2) Hemp does not contain enough THC to get high.
Fact: While this is true for industrial hemp, it can be cultivated to have high levels of THC. Quoting wiki, "In varieties grown for use as a drug, where males are removed in order to prevent fertilization, THC levels can reach as high as 24% in the unfertilized females which are given ample room to flower." |
Why don't you mention the fact that hemp crops are limited to .3% THC? and at least some countries are required to test the fields. Hemp is not being grown as a drug. |
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05/04/2008 07:53:49 PM · #93 |
the birds i feed must always be high after they've eaten...
ugh..//
Message edited by author 2008-05-04 19:55:40.
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05/04/2008 07:59:12 PM · #94 |
and that - in a nutshell - is exactly what needs to change... or needs to happen.
Originally posted by DavidEy:
There is just too much money to be made by politicians for it to ever happen here until we have the upcoming government collapse though. |
Message edited by author 2008-05-04 20:00:13.
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05/04/2008 09:33:04 PM · #95 |
| I have yet to see one logical reason for industrial hemp to be still illegal. |
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05/05/2008 02:08:09 AM · #96 |
Originally posted by Louis:
This still begs the question: why is the US the only industrialized western nation that proscribes hemp for industrial use? If Canada and every other western nation can get it right, what is so deficient about the US, that they feel themselves certain to get it wrong? |
I think because the US realizes they really aren't missing much. Once again I ask a resounding, who cares?
Alberta's report on hemp production post 1998.
At the height Canada grew 48,050 hectares. Once again, as a comparison, this Canadian site lists 2005 production of wheat at 9.65 million hectares, canola at 5.35 million hectares, and oats at 1.4 million hectares. So even compared to oats, hemp consists of 3% of the area used to grow it.
My simple point returns to the fact that hemp is not the miracle plant the poselytizers claim it is. If it were, people would naturally grow it. It's a simple matter of supply and demand. And even if it weren't, if it were greatly helpful, governments would subsidize its growth. The plain truth is we don't see this happening in other countries.
You are all welcome to exercise your rights to try to change the law. Me? I'll choose to quote Elaine Benes when asked why she was dating someone who wore a fur instead of protesting, "Eh...who's got the time?" |
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05/05/2008 02:13:13 AM · #97 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
I have yet to see one logical reason for industrial hemp to be still illegal. |
Hemp that is used in industrial applications could be used to make a THC rich variety and hemp does not have much benefit over other already cultivated crops. We can argue whether you agree or disagree, but you cannot deny that is logical if you accept the premise. (Unless you simply believe that MJ and perhaps other drugs should simply be legalized. If MJ was legal, there's no reason for hemp not to be.) But that's a different argument. If one agrees that there is benefit to keeping MJ illegal, than a logical argument can be made to keep hemp illegal. |
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05/05/2008 10:38:47 AM · #98 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Louis:
This still begs the question: why is the US the only industrialized western nation that proscribes hemp for industrial use? If Canada and every other western nation can get it right, what is so deficient about the US, that they feel themselves certain to get it wrong? |
I think because the US realizes they really aren't missing much. Once again I ask a resounding, who cares? |
That's fine. I suppose it's the apparent hypocrisy of the situation that irks some. Let's face it, it isn't illegal because it isn't economically viable. That's absurd. It's illegal because of its resemblance to marijuana. That's pretty cut and dry (no pun). |
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05/05/2008 10:42:48 AM · #99 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
If one agrees that there is benefit to keeping MJ illegal, than a logical argument can be made to keep hemp illegal. |
What is that logical argument? That it can be cultivated as a narcotic? By that argument, poppies should be illegal. Hell, even nutmeg should be contraband, given its potential to cause fluttering heartbeat and hallucinations in high doses. And that's when it's cultivated as is. |
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05/05/2008 11:14:22 AM · #100 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
If one agrees that there is benefit to keeping MJ illegal, than a logical argument can be made to keep hemp illegal. |
What is that logical argument? That it can be cultivated as a narcotic? By that argument, poppies should be illegal. Hell, even nutmeg should be contraband, given its potential to cause fluttering heartbeat and hallucinations in high doses. And that's when it's cultivated as is. |
Shhhhhh....they might hear you!
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