Colors just not right... - DPChallenge Forums

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

04/20/2008 03:30:16 PM · #1

After photographic abstinence for about half a year (caused by a crazy amount of work) I'm back with a new camera (EOS 40D), a new computer and a new software (CS3).

However, the colors are just off. I have the camera set to sRGB and the working color space in PhotoShop is also sRGB. But when I open a raw file, it shows up with weird colors in the camera raw converter of PS.

What am I doing wrong? I'm not an expert on color spaces (until now, everything just worked...), so I'd also appreciate more general advice. I know that in the end one almost always needs images in sRGB (for web or printing), but would it be better to work in Adobe RGB and only convert the images in the end?

Thanks a lot for your help,

Sam

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

04/20/2008 03:43:18 PM · #2

If you don't want to spend a very significant amount of time learning color management, stick with an sRGB workflow. It will save you hours and hours of head-scratching.
Try this... shoot a few shots in JPEG, and open them in CS3. Di they show up with the expected colors? If so, then the culprit is the RAW converter, which does not fully understand the Canon "Picture Styles" color settings. White balance is a large variable in the equation. Changing the setting to "as shot" will approximate the camera setting, but not precisely.

Artifacts

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

04/20/2008 04:22:38 PM · #3

Originally posted by Sam94720:

... the colors are just off. I have the camera set to sRGB and the working color space in PhotoShop is also sRGB. But when I open a raw file, it shows up with weird colors in the camera raw converter of PS.

What am I doing wrong? I'm not an expert on color spaces (until now, everything just worked...), so I'd also appreciate more general advice. I know that in the end one almost always needs images in sRGB (for web or printing), but would it be better to work in Adobe RGB and only convert the images in the end?

It is a little uncertain what is going on here.

If your camera is set to record sRGB and you are opening that file in a RAW converter then that might be the problem. I would not even think you could open an sRGB file in a RAW converter but if you could I would expect the colors to be "wierd".

However, if you change the setting for the camera to RAW and open it in the RAW converter and the colors are "wierd" then that might mean that you have saved "wierd" default settings that make the picture look strange. That is because those settings are applied to the RAW data before you ever see it. In that case you should reset the RAW converter back to factory software settings and go from there.

A further possibility is some other PS setting that would have to be tracked down and addressed. That presupposes a good understanding of your CS3 software.

General thoughts about color management:
Perhaps the bottom line is that no matter how much we want to think otherwise, we still need to understand something about color management.

At some point, and perhaps you have reached it now, you need to understand more about it if you expect to get the most out of your camera investment.

For example, with your 40D when you take pictures recorded only in sRGB then you are already throwing away most of the data your camera captures even before recording it on a memory card. Once lost, that data can never, EVER be recovered again.

But if you take the time to study and understand basic fundamentals about color management you will be able to take full advantage of all the data it is capable of recording, even including future improvements to printers and post processing software.

It is not easy, but you can start here:
Dry Creek Photo - Color Management Introduction

geoffb

04/20/2008 04:46:37 PM · #4

Originally posted by Artifacts:

Originally posted by Sam94720:
... the colors are just off. I have the camera set to sRGB and the working color space in PhotoShop is also sRGB. But when I open a raw file, it shows up with weird colors in the camera raw converter of PS.

What am I doing wrong? I'm not an expert on color spaces (until now, everything just worked...), so I'd also appreciate more general advice. I know that in the end one almost always needs images in sRGB (for web or printing), but would it be better to work in Adobe RGB and only convert the images in the end?

It is a little uncertain what is going on here.

If your camera is set to record sRGB and you are opening that file in a RAW converter then that might be the problem. I would not even think you could open an sRGB file in a RAW converter but if you could I would expect the colors to be "wierd".

sRGB is a colour space, not a file type. An sRGB and a RAW image are not mutually exclusive, and can in fact go hand-in-hand.

Originally posted by Artifacts:

For example, with your 40D when you take pictures recorded only in sRGB then you are already throwing away most of the data your camera captures even before recording it on a memory card. Once lost, that data can never, EVER be recovered again.

I think you're confusing sRGB with JPEG.

togtog

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

04/20/2008 04:54:19 PM · #5

Adobe recently updated their Raw Camera plug-in to support newer formats and to fix some issues with old ones. You can find more information about the update as well as a download (far down the page) here.

I had to upgrade in order to get CS3 to understand nikons d300 raw format, I hope yours is a like case, good luck.

Artifacts

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

04/20/2008 06:26:47 PM · #6

Originally posted by geoffb:

Originally posted by Artifacts:
If your camera is set to record sRGB and you are opening that file in a RAW converter then that might be the problem. I would not even think you could open an sRGB file in a RAW converter but if you could I would expect the colors to be "wierd".

Originally posted by geoffb:
sRGB is a colour space, not a file type. An sRGB and a RAW image are not mutually exclusive, and can in fact go hand-in-hand.

I think you're confusing sRGB with JPEG.

You are correct. I am oversimplifying. I mistakenly assumed .RAW file type might not be used in this situation. Obviously, if images are captured in .RAW then all the camera data is there and retained.

Again you are correct, color spaces like sRGB and file types like .jpg are NOT the same thing at all. They are completely different. Combined they determine the full extent of the data that is retained and stored in your post processed master file or in a web graphic output or in a print file output.

Perhaps you'd care to explain those concepts in greater detail for us? ;) ;)

geoffb

04/20/2008 08:51:17 PM · #7

Originally posted by Artifacts:

Perhaps you'd care to explain those concepts in greater detail for us? ;) ;)

sRGB is a colour space, which is an attempt to map digital numbers to physical colours (e.g. how "red" is 255,0,0?). The file type is a "container" that allows devices to understand and predict what they will be getting (e.g. JPEG is an image file, often with lossy compression, that almost any imaging device can display).

Message edited by author 2008-04-20 20:54:55.

04/24/2008 09:22:23 PM · #8

Thank you all for your advice. I'm currently traveling, but I'll continue experimenting as soon as I have a few free minutes.

(And then I'll probably be back with new questions... ;) )

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

04/25/2008 03:46:41 PM · #9

Ok, here I am again. And the colors are still off. The situation is as follows:

The color space of my camera is set to sRGB and this is also the working space of my PhotoShop. When I take pictures, they look awesome on the screen of my 40D. However, the JPEG version seems to be undersaturated on my laptop. When I open the raw version, it appears oversaturated in Adobe's camera raw and when I then continue to PS it remains the same. However, once I save it and then open it with the standard Windows image viewer or a browser, the colors are undersaturated. This also happens if I activate "proof colors" -> "Monitor RGB".

Is this a problem with my monitor?

Thanks a lot for any advice,

Sam

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

04/25/2008 04:41:11 PM · #10

Is your monitor calibrated?

Is ACR set to automatically apply adjustments when you open the RAW file?

Tajhad

Canon EOS R

Canon RF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS USM

04/25/2008 08:15:47 PM · #11

Is the sRGB colour space needed for printing (home inkjet or mini Lab) ?
I shot in Adobe RGB and my work flow is set for AdobeRGB. One thing I have noticed - when I have played with a print and print it out on my inkjet (Canon S820) the colours are often more muted and lack punch. This only happens some of the time - not all the time.
I was playing with some shots last night (which I am going to take to a Lab today). They looked great on the screen. I assigned the sRGB to these files and noticed straight away - that they decreased in colour saturation and punch. I fiddled with them again to bring them up again. (I'm yet to test them out through the Lab.
My question is - should you do everything in Adobe RGB and then assign them to sRGB and then adjust again ? Or is this a waste - should I do sRGB all the way through ? Or do Labs read the AdobeRGB anyway - therefore don't change anything? I assume my inkjet doesn't read Adobe RGB (or am I mistaken -it's a canon S820)?

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

04/25/2008 09:21:21 PM · #12

Originally posted by Tajhad:

Labs (consumer ones) generally don't read any profile information. They assume sRGB.

Your printer, through the driver, converts from whatever colour space the image is in to the printer profile chosen for the paper and ink being used (using ICM). Or managed via photoshop in the same way with the ICM turned off in the printer driver.

Message edited by author 2008-04-25 21:22:18.

pointandshoot

Canon EOS-10D

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

04/25/2008 11:31:51 PM · #13

Originally posted by Sam94720:

Ok, here I am again. And the colors are still off. The situation is as follows:

The color space of my camera is set to sRGB and this is also the working space of my PhotoShop.

Sam

The color space of your camera has no relevance when shooting RAW. What is your ACR color space? I'm guessing it is Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB and when you go from there to PS the file is not being converted to sRGB (your PS color space). In PS, go to Color Settings->Color Management Policies->RGB, and choose "Convert to Working RGB". It will now convert your ARC files to sRGB when you open them from ARC. Also check all three boxes at the bottom. Alternatively, you could change your color space in ARC to sRGB, or, convert your file to sRGB once you open it in PS from ARC. Clear as mud?

Message edited by author 2008-04-25 23:44:30.