So DPC is my only way to ask Canada a question...

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

03/31/2008 01:57:11 PM · #101

Originally posted by DjFenzl:

I just think about the post office and the way our public schools are run. I'm afraid if the US goes to a universal health system it will be yet another thing that is run very poorly and gets major cut backs anytime things are tight.

I'm curious -- do you think the Canadian government is far more efficient, fair, and organized than the US government?

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

03/31/2008 02:04:56 PM · #102

Originally posted by farfel53:

I think you need to share some research. Can you cite specific examples of this disaster, or are you merely repeating the propaganda you've heard? No, it's not perfect, but no, not many die because of the shortcomings. You speak like we're falling dead in the waiting rooms, crying for help. What a crock.

Woman dies on ER waiting room floor, crying for help

ETA: this isn't even the whole story, google it and you will find lots more info, like the janitor that swept around her as she was dying on the floor

Message edited by author 2008-03-31 14:08:58.

DjFenzl

03/31/2008 02:22:43 PM · #103

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DjFenzl:
I just think about the post office and the way our public schools are run. I'm afraid if the US goes to a universal health system it will be yet another thing that is run very poorly and gets major cut backs anytime things are tight.

I'm curious -- do you think the Canadian government is far more efficient, fair, and organized than the US government?

Honestly I don't know that much about the government in Canada. I just know that here in the US private schools generally give a much better education and companies like Fedex and UPS are run much better than the US postal service.

03/31/2008 02:43:22 PM · #104

Originally posted by DjFenzl:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DjFenzl:
I just think about the post office and the way our public schools are run. I'm afraid if the US goes to a universal health system it will be yet another thing that is run very poorly and gets major cut backs anytime things are tight.

I'm curious -- do you think the Canadian government is far more efficient, fair, and organized than the US government?

Honestly I don't know that much about the government in Canada. I just know that here in the US private schools generally give a much better education and companies like Fedex and UPS are run much better than the US postal service.

I only ask because whenever a US citizen has doubts about introducing universal healthcare in their country, they speak in language indicating deep suspicion of the government, or an ingrained assertion that the government is incapable of providing essential services. I think I've asked several times in this thread in one way or another, but nobody has really answered the direct question, "Are you suspicious of the government, and if so, why?" I'd further ask, if you are suspicious, why haven't you elected representatives you can trust?

03/31/2008 02:45:27 PM · #105

Louis - calling me "brutal" makes me want to cry. I'm not against government providing certain services. Nobody is against people getting the help they need. What I'm against is government promising to solve all your problems, without also letting you know how much it really costs. The more people take from the big hand, the more the big hand takes from the people. Show me how the reality is different than that, except in socialist utopian dreams.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-Ben Franklin

And yes, Louis, we are suspicious of our government, and most of us think that's a pretty healthy thing. History shows repeatedly what unchecked government is capable of inflicting upon it's citizenry.

Message edited by author 2008-03-31 14:55:46.

Ivo

03/31/2008 03:10:28 PM · #106

I'd say the flaw of the governments whether they be in Canada and/or the US is primarily based up the need to support a "party" philosophy rather that channeling the the "Utopian Paradigms" so ambitiously expressed when one runs for office. One seems to go into politics as an idealist and comes out as a down-trodden conformist. The healthcare system we have here in Canada is simply maintained by a binding agreement of universal healthcare that is extremely difficult to challenge. It is expensive and very inefficient. It is a model that is maintained by bandaid solutions and excessive funding that is difficult to quantify. It may appear better as it is a binding contract expressed to Canadians, it is still a contract that is extremely expensive and at the current rate, set to implode. On the other hand, the argument for private healtcare may have some merits but the example of the HMOs at the far end of the scale as an alternative, it is equally as scary. We have a population that is aging, we have a legal system that stiffles good medicine, we have an insurance system that is self-serving, we have a population that thrives on unhealthy excess and we have antiquated solutions for healthcare that cannot support this trend. Canada may have no choice but to integrate some form of privatization if not to maintain a level of healthcare but only to attract medical professionals. Canadians will likely support the growing expense through greater taxation for some time longer but sooner or later, the numbers will push either a collapse of the system or a tax revolt.

I also agree we should not give too much to the "Big Hand" as they are not held accountable by anyone but I also fear the corporate hand as it is only accountable to itself. Tough solution to a growing problem.

Solution, a complete revamp that will take political fortitude, a popultion displaying a willingness to change from a failing path and an overall greater valuation on humanity versus profit.

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

03/31/2008 03:16:57 PM · #107

Originally posted by farfel53:

Sorry to make you cry, but in fact, I didn't call you brutal; I said that your attitude seemed brutal to me. (You might be interested in this long read, which has been linked to in these forums before, regarding a foreigner's experience debating with Americans, and how it seems to get quickly, and unduly, personal. If you're inclined to read it, start at "Getting Overheated" if you want to skip ahead.)

Asking for an essential service like health care to be provided by the government is not the same thing as the government promising to solve all your problems, even while lying to you about how much it costs. I really fail to see the connection.

About "socialist utopian dreams": I wonder how it is that Canada has been able to provide universal health care coverage since the 1960s, yet now has one of the world's strongest economies, has a standard of living exceeding most other industrialized nations, and repeatedly rates ahead of the US in the UN's human development index, being fourth this year, with the US ranking twelfth.

The fact is, Canada's population is not being taxed to death to support a government intent on hiding its financial mismanagement in the area of health care. Across successive majority and minority Liberal and Conservative governments over the past fifteen or so years, Canada has posted a federal surplus, this year exceeding one billion dollars. Even with universal health care coverage.

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

03/31/2008 03:57:46 PM · #108

There is an interesting international comparison summary of the issue on wikipedia.

There are a few stats on the UK v the US, that would answer some of the questions being asked about relative cost and the relative wealth of medical practitioners in the universal healthcare system.

Originally posted by wikipedia:

The United States is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system...

In 2002 the amount spent per person on health care in the UK was Â£1,233 (US$2,160) per person (7.7% of gross domestic product) compared to Â£3,006 (US$5,267) in the U.S.[13] ... Health professionals are now the highest earners in the UK.

I must admit to have learnt some shocking new facts about the US system - I had no idea that you might still have a bill for any excess under the US system, nor really contemplated having second thoughts over health issues due to cost. [I have private health insurance through work and have never paid anything when I have chosen private over public healthcare.]

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

03/31/2008 04:02:16 PM · #109

Try reading this...
In the USA

mpeters

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

03/31/2008 05:02:27 PM · #110

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DjFenzl:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DjFenzl:
I just think about the post office and the way our public schools are run. I'm afraid if the US goes to a universal health system it will be yet another thing that is run very poorly and gets major cut backs anytime things are tight.

I'm curious -- do you think the Canadian government is far more efficient, fair, and organized than the US government?

Honestly I don't know that much about the government in Canada. I just know that here in the US private schools generally give a much better education and companies like Fedex and UPS are run much better than the US postal service.

I only ask because whenever a US citizen has doubts about introducing universal healthcare in their country, they speak in language indicating deep suspicion of the government, or an ingrained assertion that the government is incapable of providing essential services. I think I've asked several times in this thread in one way or another, but nobody has really answered the direct question, "Are you suspicious of the government, and if so, why?" I'd further ask, if you are suspicious, why haven't you elected representatives you can trust?

Count me in the group that doubts that the US government would be able to effectively manage a universal health care system, beyond the current Medicare, Medical, and the other programs in place. I'm not sure if they manage those very well--I have no personal and little anecdotal knowledge, although my Grandma has had good results with Medicare. I attribute my doubts to the broken schools, bumpy roads, government waste, pork barrel spending that is far to evident. I don't have the confidence that our elected officials, (on both sides) truly desire to improve the country--rather they are looking out for themselves first, followed by their district or state, and lastly they try to do what is right for the country. This is not to say that our governement is a failure (see levy413's post earlier), but can they insure us better, provide equal service, and resist the urge to raid our pocketbook in the process?

Am I suspicious of our governemnt? 'Suspicious' isn't the right word for me--that implies some devious intent on their part whereas I ascribe it to general incompetence and the ability to act effeciently. A doubter? For sure.

Why we cant change our elected officials? See above. The polititians look our for 'their people', whether corporations, unions, or constituents. I know integrity exists at the higher levels, but it is trumped by political expediency.

I strongly believe that people are more qualified than the governmant to provide solutions. BUT, I don't need to look very hard to see that our healthcare system is broken. When the cost of a monthly healthcare premium is 25% of a teacher's takehome pay--that is a problem, especially when it is the policy offered to the California Teachers Assoc., a rather large applicant group. I thought large group means lower premiums. But when you try to get insurance for a smaller group, you are told it costs more because it is small. Is the problem with the payscale or the premium/healthcare cost? Or both?

I'm not willing to accept the general conservative viewpoint that the system isn't broken. FWIW, I've always had healthcare at a reasonable expense for me and my family.

As a side, count me in the group that thinks USPS does pretty well with their delivery. I still get my mail 6 times per week and they have yet to lose a check. ;0 FEDEX and UPS also do a good job. Schools?? that is a 'nuther story, but I think the problem lies as much with the parents as the schools.

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

03/31/2008 05:14:45 PM · #111

Originally posted by Kelli:

Try reading this...
In the USA

Wow - that's tough.

03/31/2008 05:53:23 PM · #112

Louis, I will refrain from telling you to **** ** ***, and only state that you missed the sarcasm. I don't think it's quite proper to twist somebody's nose while looking down ones own, then wag a finger at them when they squawk.

Good points, Mark. I'll agree just about across the board.

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

03/31/2008 07:53:32 PM · #113

Originally posted by farfel53:

I see you got a lot out of that first link I posted for you. Good show.

Strikeslip

Canon EOS-5D

03/31/2008 08:01:46 PM · #114

Ha ha, he said **** ** ***.
:-D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

04/01/2008 08:56:22 AM · #115

Yes, I got a better understanding of "smug", "condescending", and "arrogant". Thanks.

Sorry, everybody. I'll bow out of this conversation and let cooler, more tolerant heads continue.

Cheers!

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

04/01/2008 10:26:07 AM · #116

Originally posted by mpeters:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DjFenzl:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by DjFenzl:
I just think about the post office and the way our public schools are run. I'm afraid if the US goes to a universal health system it will be yet another thing that is run very poorly and gets major cut backs anytime things are tight.

I'm curious -- do you think the Canadian government is far more efficient, fair, and organized than the US government?

Honestly I don't know that much about the government in Canada. I just know that here in the US private schools generally give a much better education and companies like Fedex and UPS are run much better than the US postal service.

I only ask because whenever a US citizen has doubts about introducing universal healthcare in their country, they speak in language indicating deep suspicion of the government, or an ingrained assertion that the government is incapable of providing essential services. I think I've asked several times in this thread in one way or another, but nobody has really answered the direct question, "Are you suspicious of the government, and if so, why?" I'd further ask, if you are suspicious, why haven't you elected representatives you can trust?

Count me in the group that doubts that the US government would be able to effectively manage a universal health care system, beyond the current Medicare, Medical, and the other programs in place. I'm not sure if they manage those very well--I have no personal and little anecdotal knowledge, although my Grandma has had good results with Medicare. I attribute my doubts to the broken schools, bumpy roads, government waste, pork barrel spending that is far to evident. I don't have the confidence that our elected officials, (on both sides) truly desire to improve the country--rather they are looking out for themselves first, followed by their district or state, and lastly they try to do what is right for the country. This is not to say that our governement is a failure (see levy413's post earlier), but can they insure us better, provide equal service, and resist the urge to raid our pocketbook in the process?

Am I suspicious of our governemnt? 'Suspicious' isn't the right word for me--that implies some devious intent on their part whereas I ascribe it to general incompetence and the ability to act effeciently. A doubter? For sure.

Why we cant change our elected officials? See above. The polititians look our for 'their people', whether corporations, unions, or constituents. I know integrity exists at the higher levels, but it is trumped by political expediency.

I strongly believe that people are more qualified than the governmant to provide solutions. BUT, I don't need to look very hard to see that our healthcare system is broken. When the cost of a monthly healthcare premium is 25% of a teacher's takehome pay--that is a problem, especially when it is the policy offered to the California Teachers Assoc., a rather large applicant group. I thought large group means lower premiums. But when you try to get insurance for a smaller group, you are told it costs more because it is small. Is the problem with the payscale or the premium/healthcare cost? Or both?

I'm not willing to accept the general conservative viewpoint that the system isn't broken. FWIW, I've always had healthcare at a reasonable expense for me and my family.

As a side, count me in the group that thinks USPS does pretty well with their delivery. I still get my mail 6 times per week and they have yet to lose a check. ;0 FEDEX and UPS also do a good job. Schools?? that is a 'nuther story, but I think the problem lies as much with the parents as the schools.

very well said. I think the Public Schools are a good example of what happens when the federal government gets involved (even though, technically, education is supposed to be a state thing). There ARE some good public schools, but as a general whole, that is a broken system, I think. At least in my opinion of what the system should be doing -- perhaps it is exactly what the government wants. I dunno.

VitaminB

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 28-70mm f/2.8D IF-ED

04/04/2008 01:01:45 PM · #117

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WORLDHEALTH2.png

I find it funny that in this wikipedia graphic, it shows that the US is paying for Iraq's and Afganistans Universal health care, yet they dont pay for their own. American politicians that I see campaigning, always talk about universal health care with a negative tone. Some have even referred to canada's system as an example of why it doesnt work.

Well... I live in Canada, have my whole life. Love the health care system, and the fact that I dont have to find health coverage from a private insurer, intent on making a profit out of me, and looking for ways to deny my coverage.

Sure.. you will always find anecdotal stories of canadians being screwed by our system, long wait times, canadians having to go to the US for treatment. This does happen, as the system is not perfect, and likely never will be. But for the most part, its pretty good. I would rather have the Canadian system, than the american one.. despite our higher tax burden.

I just dont like the thought of the rich getting better health care than the poor, simply because they have money. Healthy living is a basic human necessity, and efforts should be made to enable everyone to get it.

Message edited by author 2008-04-04 13:02:14.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

04/04/2008 01:14:27 PM · #118

Originally posted by farfel53:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

I think you need to do some research.

People are indeed denied health care in the US based on insurance status. Unfortunately, it happens every day and people do indeed suffer and die because of it.

If you can get care as an uninsured person, it's not uncommon for the resulting bills to result in bankruptcy, inability to pay other bills, forcing the sale of the family home, emptying of retirement accounts etc.

And as far as a person on their own purchasing private insurance, well, they'll be able to find coverage, albeit at a high premium or high deductible as long as they are quite healthy now. Any pre-existing conditions or questionable health history will likely result in denial of coverage or a premium that would make Bill Gates cringe. In that case, you're on your own.

The US system is, for many people, totally broken.

I think you need to share some research. Can you cite specific examples of this disaster, or are you merely repeating the propaganda you've heard? No, it's not perfect, but no, not many die because of the shortcomings. You speak like we're falling dead in the waiting rooms, crying for help. What a crock.

And BTW - there are no guarantees in this life, no matter what the "government" types are trying to sell. No promise that you won't go bankrupt for any number of reasons, no promise that you won't have pain and suffering on the way toward final rest. No promise that big brother will do anything but promise. Anybody who believes all that deserves the inevitable disappointment. Sorry. "This ain't no NeverNeverLand"

I speak from my own experiences and of those I know.

As for the experiences of others, let me repost a link from elsewhere in this thread:

Healthcare for the working class

I find you apparent lack of compassion and evident disregard for the plight of those less fortunate than you in terms of wealth and health brutal and apalling.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

04/04/2008 01:21:09 PM · #119

Originally posted by mpeters:

FWIW, I've always had healthcare at a reasonable expense for me and my family.

Count yourself and your family as lucky and unfortunately what is becomoing more the exception that the rule.