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03/08/2008 06:29:52 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Not to mention that the US executed Japanese officers that waterboarded prisoners in WWII |
The US did a lot of things back then that they don't do now, I am failing to see the relevance of how this plays out today. Now if you told me that they executed someone for waterboarding our soldiers today, then I think you would have a point. |
It plays out today because there is no statute of limitations on the morality of torture. |
I took the quote as a comment on the US's hypocritical stance as it pertained to their view on water-boarding then and now. Besides, I'm sure the officers that were executed did much more than water-board soldiers, both sides partook in very nasty, sadistic, torture on each other. I could be wrong though and would be interested in your source. |
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03/08/2008 07:10:01 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Originally posted by Louis:
Do you want to be a country so abstractly hypocritcal as to abandon all human compassion even while claiming to be a Christian nation? If you are leading by example, you are teaching terrorists a thing or two, to be sure. |
I don't claim this to be a christian nation, so I don't feel I'm being hypocritical. As for leading by example, it would be a compassionate improvement to their methods. If all the US has to worry about are terrorist waterboarding its' civilians, that they learned from our example, then I think we have come out ahead of the current situation. |
I see; so you are taking a tongue in cheek remark at face value to turn it around and point out that the US is actually doing the world a service. Is there a political career in your future? |
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03/08/2008 07:26:49 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Originally posted by Louis:
Do you want to be a country so abstractly hypocritcal as to abandon all human compassion even while claiming to be a Christian nation? If you are leading by example, you are teaching terrorists a thing or two, to be sure. |
I don't claim this to be a christian nation, so I don't feel I'm being hypocritical. As for leading by example, it would be a compassionate improvement to their methods. If all the US has to worry about are terrorist waterboarding its' civilians, that they learned from our example, then I think we have come out ahead of the current situation. |
I see; so you are taking a tongue in cheek remark at face value to turn it around and point out that the US is actually doing the world a service. Is there a political career in your future? |
Will you point out to me where I typed any phrase that states I feel the US is doing the world a service? I checked but I must have misplaced it in all my political spin. I was merely responding to your question and jab at the religous right and pointing out that I'm not part of that group. I think the future in politics is left to you, fabricating things that people don't really say. |
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03/08/2008 07:43:55 PM · #29 |
| Scary, very scary. Especially those who support a president who will go down in history as the worst....! Veto against the majority will equals dictatorship. Slowly eroding your constitution to make the land of the free a land of subjecteds...... Scary, very scary. |
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03/08/2008 07:49:50 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by trevytrev:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Not to mention that the US executed Japanese officers that waterboarded prisoners in WWII |
The US did a lot of things back then that they don't do now, I am failing to see the relevance of how this plays out today. Now if you told me that they executed someone for waterboarding our soldiers today, then I think you would have a point. |
It plays out today because there is no statute of limitations on the morality of torture. |
I took the quote as a comment on the US's hypocritical stance as it pertained to their view on water-boarding then and now. Besides, I'm sure the officers that were executed did much more than water-board soldiers, both sides partook in very nasty, sadistic, torture on each other. I could be wrong though and would be interested in your source. |
My source is John McCain. He has some real world experience on the subject.
//www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml
You can also Google the topic if you like.
I'm sure you are correct, they used other torture techniques as well. But waterboarding has been out front for a long time as a particulrly nasty yet ineffective interrogation technique. |
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03/08/2008 08:27:25 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Tom:
Waterboarding doesn't inflict pain, you don't come out with broken bones, you're not bleeding, you're not dead, you're not missing fingernails, you're just inflicted with pure fear. Compared with what terrorists do to their captives, it's like we're just throwing marshmellows our prisoners. I wish people would stop complaining about terrorist's rights and start becoming thankful that their cities aren't being attacked with chemicals and other bombs....like what is happening where the terrorists actually live and have access. |
I would be interested to know:
1) When an American waterboards an Iraqi captive, is that acceptable?
2) When an Iraqi waterboards an American captive, is that acceptable?
I am glad that I live in a country where human rights are *human* rights - not just victor's rights. Sadly any American reading this cannot say the same.
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03/08/2008 09:19:03 PM · #32 |
My thoughts on it are this:
From a logical viewpoint, history has shown over and over again that the quality of information gained using torture is unreliable; put people under enough pressure and they will say what they think you want to hear, regardless of whether it's correct or not. Which is fine if you're looking for vengeance, but not if you're looking for truth.
-- I value truth over vengance (if someone did something to people I love, I'd rather have no-one pay for it than the wrong person pay for it), therefore I'm not happy about using torture techniques.
From an ethical viewpoint, I think the question becomes
"would you be ok with the police, armed forces or security services using a technique (e.g. waterboarding) on a good friend or family member that was suspected of some sort of crime?" If the answer is "no" then I believe that you can't make a moral case for using it on anyone, including terrorists or suspected terrorists - underlying assumption, we should treat all people fairly, not just the ones we like.
Maybe this reflects the fact that I know we are all going to die sooner or later, and that I value living with integrity over living for as long as possible.
Different people will approach these questions with different moral imperatives, and it isn't always clear/stated what those imperatives are. If I disagree with someone else on torture or other similar issues, it's probably because we have a differing worldviews at a lower/foundational level, possibly while not understanding that (or how) our worldviews differ.
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03/08/2008 09:53:41 PM · #33 |
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Message edited by author 2008-03-17 11:45:56. |
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