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02/20/2008 03:31:31 PM · #76 |
| Kick him outta' here - he's annoying - no wait - so are half the people on here - or not - oh my - I'm going out of my mind - musta' been the nice rack he has that is affecting my judgement - either that or a weird desire to play with em... |
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02/20/2008 03:33:27 PM · #77 |
| I say keep leroy but dont let the cheese photo back, :-) |
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02/20/2008 03:34:36 PM · #78 |
And the nothing will ever changes as long as we embrace this point of view. [/quote]
What?
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02/20/2008 03:37:11 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by Sammie:
Quite frankly, I don't think he does try that hard to protect his models - sometimes I feel that the models Leroy uses are being exploited. Some of the models he uses for nude or semi nude shots aren't as slim or shapely as most nude models - while this in no way makes them less beautiful as humans they are kind of "not ready for prime time" nudes. I often times think this is unfair to the girl to take a nude or semi nude picture and put it up on the internet where it might get negative comments if they are slightly plump or whatever.
I know it sounds prudish but I really feel very strongly that young women should be protected from expoitation in nude photography. Hopefully, all the models used for nude photography really want to be photographed in the nude and haven't been convinced to do so. |
I'm going to have to strongly disagree with everything in the above post and I'm also going to try very hard to bite my tongue about this narrow-minded conformist post. Weight has nothing to do with art and/or beauty. Weight is a societal restriction and beauty can come in all shapes and sizes. Just because a model doesn't fit Maxim's definition of "beautiful" doesn't mean she's being exploited when she poses for nude photographs. IN FACT women who do not fit the "norm" for "beauty" should be applauded for this type of work... I highly recommend you take a look at Leonard Nimoy's "Full Body Project" and then confront one of the models (whom I've seen in other photography forums) and dare to tell her that she's being exploited.
Linky not work safey
ETA: Disclaimer.... I'm not saying that Leroy's models are overweight, I'm just pushing the argument to the far side of the spectrum to make a point.
Message edited by author 2008-02-20 15:40:37.
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02/20/2008 03:43:30 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by LeeD:
Originally posted by Sammie:
Quite frankly, I don't think he does try that hard to protect his models - sometimes I feel that the models Leroy uses are being exploited. Some of the models he uses for nude or semi nude shots aren't as slim or shapely as most nude models - while this in no way makes them less beautiful as humans they are kind of "not ready for prime time" nudes. I often times think this is unfair to the girl to take a nude or semi nude picture and put it up on the internet where it might get negative comments if they are slightly plump or whatever.
I know it sounds prudish but I really feel very strongly that young women should be protected from expoitation in nude photography. Hopefully, all the models used for nude photography really want to be photographed in the nude and haven't been convinced to do so. |
I'm going to have to strongly disagree with everything in the above post and I'm also going to try very hard to bite my tongue about this narrow-minded conformist post. Weight has nothing to do with art and/or beauty. Weight is a societal restriction and beauty can come in all shapes and sizes. Just because a model doesn't fit Maxim's definition of "beautiful" doesn't mean she's being exploited when she poses for nude photographs. IN FACT women who do not fit the "norm" for "beauty" should be applauded for this type of work... I highly recommend you take a look at Leonard Nimoy's "Full Body Project" and then confront one of the models (whom I've seen in other photography forums) and dare to tell her that she's being exploited.
Linky not work safey |
You have misunderstood me - I don't think it's wrong to photograph nude people - no matter what they look like. I'm plump myself and really dislike it when beauty is equated with slimness. What I'm saying is that I think it is exploitation to put photographs up where they might get negative comments that hurt the models feelings.
As for being conformist and narrow minded - well, I've always considered myself a non-comformist - sometimes a feminist. I feel very strongly that women should not be exploited by nude photography.
Message edited by author 2008-02-20 15:44:10. |
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02/20/2008 03:47:27 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by irisheyes:
Originally posted by DjFenzl:
Originally posted by Sammie:
...Quite frankly, I don't think he does try that hard to protect his models - sometimes I feel that the models Leroy uses are being exploited. Some of the models he uses for nude or semi nude shots aren't as slim or shapely as most nude models - while this in no way makes them less beautiful as humans they are kind of "not ready for prime time" nudes. I often times think this is unfair to the girl to take a nude or semi nude picture and put it up on the internet where it might get negative comments if they are slightly plump or whatever... |
And the nothing will ever change as long as we embrace this point of view. |
What? |
To say Leroy's models "aren't ready for prime time" and that he is exploiting them because they have more meat on their bones is ridiculous and as long as we continue to embrace that kind of thinking we will continue to live in a society where only very skinny people are considered beautiful - with or without their clothes on.
The people Leroy shoots are happy to have him shoot them the way they are because he makes them look beautiful and sexy (IMO at least). People like to feel beautiful and sexy and that's why I think Leroy got so upset - because he is trying to do something, change people's perspectives and instead he got comments meant to pigeon hole his models as "inappropriate". That goes against everything he stands for and on that point I agree with him. |
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02/20/2008 03:47:27 PM · #82 |
You make the assumption that photographing bigger people and positng them is expoitation... I would venture that many if not most that pose nude have an idea that it will be displayed in some way... why else do it??? if it's for art, then it's going to be displayed... this isn't exploitation
Message edited by author 2008-02-20 15:51:28. |
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02/20/2008 03:52:02 PM · #83 |
I haven't been following this entire fiasco (mainly because I don't have time and it makes my head hurt) but I will say this.
Leroy is a good photographer and from what I can tell a stand-up guy. The models he works with are more "everyday girls next door" and they should be applauded for posing for him. They are well aware of where their photos are going to end up. The fact that one of his models is now a user here shows that he not only shares his models with this community, but he also shares this community with his models. To say there is some form of exploitation implies there is some type of misrepresentation of his intentions to photograph them. I do NOT feel this is the case and I will happily stand up for him when someone implies that he does exploit his models (particularly when he can't speak for himself).
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02/20/2008 03:52:25 PM · #84 |
Leroy is a believer in model releases and does not post anything without the model's permission to my knowledge. All he was asking for was for people to critique his work - not the people in his work. If anything those people should be encouraged that they are beautiful - not put down for what is likely a bit out of their comfort zone (because of society).
To keep this on topic - that's one of the reason's I'd like him to stay. While he is controversial at times (and perhaps a bit raunchy sometimes too) he IS shaking up the system a bit and IMO he's doing it in a good way (his motives are pure). |
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02/20/2008 03:54:21 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by DjFenzl:
Leroy is a believer in model releases and does not post anything without the model's permission to my knowledge. All he was asking for was for people to critique his work - not the people in his work. If anything those people should be encouraged that they are beautiful - not put down for what is likely a bit out of their comfort zone (because of society).
To keep this on topic - that's one of the reason's I'd like him to stay. While he is controversial at times (and perhaps a bit raunchy sometimes too) he IS shaking up the system a bit and IMO he's doing it in a good way (his motives are pure). |
quoted because it's worth reading twice!
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02/20/2008 03:55:09 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
You make the assumption that photographing bigger people and positng them is expoitation... I would venture that many if not most that pose nude have an idea that it will be displayed in some way... why else do it??? if it's for art, then it's going to be displayed... |
No, I'm not making that assumption - I'm stating that I THINK it's a form of exploitation to post pictures of a model whether nude or clothed where it might elicit comments that would hurt the feelings of the model.
I agree that the definition of beauty should change - I'm plump myself and hate to see women beating themselves up if they aren't super thin.
However, posting a picture to a public place where it might get comments that hurt feelings is insensitive.
Message edited by author 2008-02-20 15:56:18. |
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02/20/2008 04:00:31 PM · #87 |
OK, this is it plain and simple...
Leroy's request to critique his work and not his model is quite reasonable. This is a photography site people, not a modeling site and all critique/discussion should be photography related.
On the flip side of the coin, if the models were posting photos on a modeling site, they should expect to receive comments on body shape because that's the nature of the site.
You can get very nasty in your critiques of his photography and he won't bat an eye, but when you critique his model(s) which are totally unrelated to his ability to photograph them, then you have crossed the line and THAT was his point.
Message edited by author 2008-02-20 16:02:07.
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02/20/2008 04:05:48 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Sammie:
Originally posted by Eyesup:
You make the assumption that photographing bigger people and positng them is expoitation... I would venture that many if not most that pose nude have an idea that it will be displayed in some way... why else do it??? if it's for art, then it's going to be displayed... |
No, I'm not making that assumption - I'm stating that I THINK it's a form of exploitation to post pictures of a model whether nude or clothed where it might elicit comments that would hurt the feelings of the model.
I agree that the definition of beauty should change - I'm plump myself and hate to see women beating themselves up if they aren't super thin.
However, posting a picture to a public place where it might get comments that hurt feelings is insensitive. |
But that would apply to every single picture with people as subjects.. It's quite easy to get equally insulting comments on a fully clothed 10 yr old. "nose is too large, obese looking kid, horrible smile. Looks Quite sexy" are mere examples for a hypothetical kiddie potrait.. |
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02/20/2008 04:15:43 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by LeeD:
OK, this is it plain and simple...
Leroy's request to critique his work and not his model is quite reasonable. This is a photography site people, not a modeling site and all critique/discussion should be photography related.
On the flip side of the coin, if the models were posting photos on a modeling site, they should expect to receive comments on body shape because that's the nature of the site.
You can get very nasty in your critiques of his photography and he won't bat an eye, but when you critique his model(s) which are totally unrelated to his ability to photograph them, then you have crossed the line and THAT was his point. |
No, it's not that black and white. That's like saying "look and my picture but ignore the content". Absolutely, this is a photography site and as photographers we take pictures of various things, we post said images of what-have-you for a reaction. And I think  Scalvert mentioned in one of the MANY other threads hashing this over...and over...it is not the size of the model...it is the way they are portrayed and that is the photographers problem. I feel if you respect a woman, you should portray them in a respectful manner, nude or not. That's just my opinion ...please don't jump on me for being a prude, soooo not the case. |
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02/20/2008 04:30:16 PM · #90 |
| Just so the truth can be known. I have voted in this poll 20 times just myself using multiple computers and the same computer after the timer ran out. The results are skewed thus this poll means absolutely shit. |
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02/20/2008 04:36:49 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Just so the truth can be known. I have voted in this poll 20 times just myself using multiple computers and the same computer after the timer ran out. The results are skewed thus this poll means absolutely shit. |
WOOHOO! I was waiting for someone to point out this exploit. I went back to see the results and got the poll again and had a "WTF?" moment. lol |
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02/20/2008 04:43:16 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Just so the truth can be known. I have voted in this poll 20 times just myself using multiple computers and the same computer after the timer ran out. The results are skewed thus this poll means absolutely shit. |
Really? 20 times? And people still want to argue that we can be mature about negative comments and not petty on this site? I voted once. I joked about voting more than once, but didn't try. |
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02/20/2008 04:46:19 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Just so the truth can be known. I have voted in this poll 20 times just myself using multiple computers and the same computer after the timer ran out. The results are skewed thus this poll means absolutely shit. |
Really? 20 times? And people still want to argue that we can be mature about negative comments and not petty on this site? I voted once. I joked about voting more than once, but didn't try. |
It's not a real poll there are no controls. How can it be fair without some control? This whole thing is as lame as it gets...
ETA: Fairness must really mean shit.
Message edited by author 2008-02-20 16:46:53. |
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02/20/2008 04:48:53 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Just so the truth can be known. I have voted in this poll 20 times just myself using multiple computers and the same computer after the timer ran out. The results are skewed thus this poll means absolutely shit. |
Really? 20 times? And people still want to argue that we can be mature about negative comments and not petty on this site? I voted once. I joked about voting more than once, but didn't try. |
It's not a real poll there are no controls. How can it be fair without some control? This whole thing is as lame as it gets...
ETA: Fairness must really mean shit. |
This brings us back to the original argument about "controls" over the removal of comments. Without some objective criteria (SC's was posted a while ago, either in this thread or another by L2) to assess comments, but it was completely ignored. Without controls on how comments are removed, its unfair to simply give all the power to the photographer to remove a comment. This is a brilliant illustration of the point we've been trying to make. |
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02/20/2008 04:53:27 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Just so the truth can be known. I have voted in this poll 20 times just myself using multiple computers and the same computer after the timer ran out. The results are skewed thus this poll means absolutely shit. |
Really? 20 times? And people still want to argue that we can be mature about negative comments and not petty on this site? I voted once. I joked about voting more than once, but didn't try. |
It's not a real poll there are no controls. How can it be fair without some control? This whole thing is as lame as it gets...
ETA: Fairness must really mean shit. |
This brings us back to the original argument about "controls" over the removal of comments. Without some objective criteria (SC's was posted a while ago, either in this thread or another by L2) to assess comments, but it was completely ignored. Without controls on how comments are removed, its unfair to simply give all the power to the photographer to remove a comment. This is a brilliant illustration of the point we've been trying to make. |
Twist it to fit any way you want you are the lawyer...
It is all spin and power. You have it and don't want to give it up. You treat us like children, so be it. You can continue your harping on your talking points and twist it as you will as I am just a child who is incapable.
And also if you look back into the discussions I have asked 3 questions and then bowed out of the discussion as I could see it going the way it always does. So you really don't know where I stand on the issue as I have not shared my opinion only asked questions.
Oh well...
Message edited by author 2008-02-20 16:53:53. |
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02/20/2008 05:08:32 PM · #96 |
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02/20/2008 07:30:19 PM · #97 |
Hmmm,
I was under the impression that we leave comment on a photograph to critque, applaud, give advice, etc... These comments are for the photgrapher who posted the shot. therefore he should be allowed to either show or hide comments.
NOte: I also believe that we learn as a 3rd party reading comments on others photos. These comments that are contructive hardly stand the chance of being hidden.
you would think that SC or Landon would be all over this due to the many people that just up and leave after suffering rude obnoxious treatment by others. |
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02/20/2008 07:35:59 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by ShutterHack:
These comments that are contructive hardly stand the chance of being hidden. |
Perhaps you did not read the examples given by an SC member of comments that have actually been reported for removal but are *incredibly* helpful. |
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02/20/2008 07:39:30 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
It is all spin and power. You have it and don't want to give it up. You treat us like children, so be it. You can continue your harping on your talking points and twist it as you will as I am just a child who is incapable. |
The way I've interpreted SC's position is that they think that, while there are certainly people who want a delete comment button, it would not be good for the site as a whole. Being a learning site, allowing people to read comments left by a second party on a photo from a third party, etc. (If they *did* have a delete post button implemented and never got another comment reported, that would just be less work for them personally which I think could in fact be appreciated, not resented... so I'm not exactly sure I agree with the idea that in this instance they're trying to maintain their power.)
edit: Actually I have no idea about the poll thing or multiple computer voting or whatever... I missed all that completely and still don't understand it - So, if you were talking about the power thing in relation to the poll, disregard my entire post, I think.
Message edited by author 2008-02-20 19:48:19. |
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02/20/2008 07:40:54 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
And also if you look back into the discussions I have asked 3 questions and then bowed out of the discussion as I could see it going the way it always does. So you really don't know where I stand on the issue as I have not shared my opinion only asked questions.
Oh well... |
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